Anyone move their DC to algebra in 6th

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Not sure what you are saying makes zero sense.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 instead of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2? That decision already was made by the state.

MVC at all schools? The need is there, already, for any STEM-focused student having taken the standard MCPS acceleration offerings (Algebra in 7th), and that happens everywhere in the county. It is likely to be even more the case as soon as the Integrated Algebra change comes into play. Meanwhile, the BOE has been all about equity, and having MVC ar some schools but not others is a rather obvious inequity, especially based on the differential demographics where that plays out.

Basing course options in core subjects based on "community pull" instead of meeting the needs of students across the system? Now, I'd agree on that not making sense.

As for the BOE making it "clear" that MVC will not be at all schools, that is something I haven't heard and would think is a supposition coming from central office or from a community where advanced classes such as that already are offered. Is there a public meeting where they proclaimed this? Or is it based on some MCPS presentation to the BOE where the fact that some schools provide offerings that others do not was buried in a slide and hand-waived over, with the fact that the BOE did not, then, raise direct questions or reject the presentation entirely taken as some BOE blessing of the differential experience that MCPS seems to tolerate because, as Malibu Stacy says, "Math is hard..." (PS -- so is equity).

Slide 19 on the latest BOE meeting slide deck when discussing the updates about secondary program analysis:
https://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DKRJWU4F383C/$file/10.01%20Program%20Analysis%20Boundary%20Studies%20Comm%20Engage%20Plan%20Update%20250821%20PPT%20REV.pdf

Page 19 means nothing will improve with some schools and where are they getting the money for this on top of opening two new schools.

Plus 32 new regional programs. Central office truly believes they are Tony Stark: unlimited power and unlimited money.

Well, they just raise property taxes again so yes they have unlimited money.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Not sure what you are saying makes zero sense.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 instead of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2? That decision already was made by the state.

MVC at all schools? The need is there, already, for any STEM-focused student having taken the standard MCPS acceleration offerings (Algebra in 7th), and that happens everywhere in the county. It is likely to be even more the case as soon as the Integrated Algebra change comes into play. Meanwhile, the BOE has been all about equity, and having MVC ar some schools but not others is a rather obvious inequity, especially based on the differential demographics where that plays out.

Basing course options in core subjects based on "community pull" instead of meeting the needs of students across the system? Now, I'd agree on that not making sense.

As for the BOE making it "clear" that MVC will not be at all schools, that is something I haven't heard and would think is a supposition coming from central office or from a community where advanced classes such as that already are offered. Is there a public meeting where they proclaimed this? Or is it based on some MCPS presentation to the BOE where the fact that some schools provide offerings that others do not was buried in a slide and hand-waived over, with the fact that the BOE did not, then, raise direct questions or reject the presentation entirely taken as some BOE blessing of the differential experience that MCPS seems to tolerate because, as Malibu Stacy says, "Math is hard..." (PS -- so is equity).

Slide 19 on the latest BOE meeting slide deck when discussing the updates about secondary program analysis:
https://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DKRJWU4F383C/$file/10.01%20Program%20Analysis%20Boundary%20Studies%20Comm%20Engage%20Plan%20Update%20250821%20PPT%20REV.pdf

Slide 19 says nothing that "makes it clear" MVC won't be at all schools.

On the right side of the slide, it lists only AP courses (with reference to "or IB"). MVC is neither an AP course nor an IB course. It is the next level in progression from AP Calculus BC content, and The College Board has not made such a course available as an AP.

The left side is considerably more ambiguous. Noted are "course progression opportunities," including "advanced courses" and listing Math among other subject areas -- nothing either prescribing or proscribing MVC.

And the deck was from MCPS central office, not the BOE. It was presented with the above-noted hand-waving ("just an example...of what our high schools could offer"). There was commentary from BOE members about ensuring access to equitably rigorous/broad programs and classes across regions and schools (sadly, without a clear statement from MCPS affirming that -- more like, "We're trying."). However, there were no clarifying remarks or questions that drove to whether a course like MVC (or even the two higher AP Physics C course segments, as only "Physics" was listed) might be in consideration.

The BOE easily could push to ensure equitable access to core courses needed to complete a progression begun under MCPS curricular standards for acceleration. Whether they will do so...???

You do realize this is pretty much no change and the minimal schools will still be minimal so this really hurts dcc students. The w school kids will be fine as their schools offer plenty of options. They are not trying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Could not agree more. Makes no sense. I think for some parents it's some sort of flex that their kid is on some super advanced math track. This fails to look at the long game where down the road they run out of classes in MCPS and/or the classes become too challenging.

Even regional model is implemented and these advanced math courses are offered at regional STEM programs, how to make sure students taking the advanced track got accepted to these programs? I'd imagine guaranteed admission would result in favor of push-in and potential corruption...

One way would be to give STEM-magnet admission priority to standard (or above) acceleration students whose home school would not offer the advanced courses locally. But that would create its own inequity.

Better just to make sure enough advanced courses are offered at every school so that no student is asked to slow down/accept discontinuity (e.g., take a filler course after Integrated Algebra, start with Calc AB instead of BC, settle for AP Stats after BC instead of MVC or take on the burden/diminished experience of dual enrollment/virtual classes where in-person is offered to others in the same situation elsewhere in the system).

You are making the assumption that all kids want these magnets vs. choosing the classes they want to take as electives. Many don't want the magnets. The solution is to make sure that all schools have AP's in Math, Science, Computer Science, Engineering and a minimum math of MV. And, where they cannot do it, align the school schedules and do it virtually. MC is not realistic for all kids due to transportation and schedules.

Not at all making that assumption -- offering magnet admission simply would provide those students a choice (home or magnet), just as a choice is provided to students at schools where the advanced classes are offered (though without having to travel to a magnet).

But, again, better simply to make sure enough advanced classes are available locally at all schools in core subjects, as you agree, to support student need. I don't think there is an engineering AP, but having both AP Physics C exams universally supported would help. Ditto AP CS A/Java.

Virtual could be used if shown to deliver robustly enough. In-person for some but virtual for others is an inequity, however.

Some schools don't even have AP for science classes. Virtual was done very well in the MVA but instead of expanding it the BOE and central office selfishly cut it. The issue with virtual would be they would need to align all the HS schedules, which wouldn't be hard.

Inequity is not having access to it. Virtual is far better than not having it at all and regardless of in person or virtual the important factor is having a good teacher.

Inequity also is not having access to equivalent programming, very much along the lines of separate ≠ equal. Virtual for some and in-person for others is inequitable, given the differences seen in student experience between the two. All-virtual might be an option...with a good teacher being key, as suggested.

We liked virtual but virtual is far better than nothing which many of our kids go through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

We need to accept larger class sizes at the secondary level anyway, PP, it's just a reality of our capital budget and real estate constraints, which do not allow MCPS to build as many schools as we would like.

My son had 31 kids in his first grade class, and that was a disaster, but his high school classes at Walter Johnson regularly had 30 kids and that was perfectly fine. Kids can tolerate large classes as they grow older.

The number of advanced classes in high school is limited by the number of classrooms (very long term budget issue) and/or teachers (short term budget issue and difficulties finding employable people). My youngest kid attends BCC, and despite having available classrooms, they cannot seem to get their act together to meet demand for some advanced classes. Last year they indicated that they might not offer AP Chem every year, and there was a parent backlash. This year they offered just one AP Chem class for the whole school, reserved for 11th and 12th graders, which shut out some 9th and 10th graders who were interested and qualified. And even if a class is offered, sometimes the actual content doesn't match the official description: my kid is taking AP Physics C, which according to the transcript is composed of Mechanics and Electricity and Magnetism, but they were told that only Mechanics would be actually taught, with prep for the AP Mech exam. Which means kids are on their own to take the E&M AP exam, and how do they explain to colleges that their school just refuses to teach the second semester of that course???

What this means is that advanced kids need to be careful because what they're planning for their future might not actually be available once they get to those higher grades; and their trajectory for college admissions might get derailed because the school doesn't actually offer what the website says they offer. The admissions officers see all these APs and post-APs that are "officially" available, and thinks candidates didn't seize opportunities, but no, kids get shut out of classes all the time. This needs to be explained in college apps.

You don't get those AP classes either at SMCS. Kids do self-learning and get 5 on about half of the AP tests. Isn't it more appealing to college admission that you get 5 on a test that doesn't have a course attached?

Yes, you're right. But my complaint is that MCPS vaunts its multiple AP offerings, on each of their high school websites, when in reality it's all a bunch of lies. Often AP classes are restricted to older students, and sometimes apparently a school can just blow off the course description and teach only half of it, but still pretend on the transcript that they taught the entire thing. At least at SMCS, you know what you're getting into. You make plans for self-study, or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

MCPS makes a standard level of acceleration available at each ES/MS. Currently, that standard leads to the completion of PreAlgebra in 6th grade, and logically would continue with an honors veraion of PreCalc in 9th to bridge between Integrated Algebra 2 and college-level courses. It is incumbent upon MCPS to ensure classes that would follow in this core subject are equitably available.

There would need to be three of those to afford one per year in high school, beginning with AP Calculus. While an AB/BC progression over two years, followed by AP Stats, would provide an off-ramp for academically advanced but not STEM-focused students, taking BC (which covers AB material) directly would be correct for the more mathematically inclined. That would have to continue immediately with MVC due to its progression-essential concept continuity. After that, AP Stats, itself valuable to the STEM-focused, would fill the void, avoiding the extreme difficulty in equitable non-magnet provision across all schools of Linear Algebra & Differential Equations, themselves part of a college Mathematics progression but less essential to take in the immediate aftermath of the Calculus progression.

What is the differential cost? Assuming provision of AB, BC & Stats are baked in at all schools, assuming that each of the schools containing a regional STEM (SMCS and/or Engineering) magnet program would have MVC anyway and assuming that 4-5 other schools currently offering it would continue to do so, there might need to be the addition of 15 sections of MVC across the system. Even if not addressed with current internal staff by the shift of .2 FTE to the new local section (3 FTE total if student redistribution does not result in an equivalent number of Math classes overall), this could be managed with 5 FTEs -- roving specialists, each teaching one section at three schools, with a 2-period allocation for travel time. Those would be more expensive than a typical HS FTE, of course, but perhaps between $1M and $1.5M, and that is if the less costly internal staff solution proves universally unmanageable at all schools that wouldn't otherwise offer MVC.

What about those accelerating beyond the standard MCPS offering (e.g., Algebra in 6th)? Like with many accommodations, students and families would need to be aware that such placement, while available, would not be supported in the same manner as standard offerings. If not accessing the regional Math-focused magnet, this is where an expectation of access (e.g., for Linear Algebra & Differential Equations) via Dual Enrollment or, perhaps, virtual, for every school but the magnet, rightly would come into play.

Magnet has limited enrollment and not all kids want it. Mc is impossible to work with after school activities and schedules don’t align. Have you considered the cost to Mcps for Mc vs in-house. Mcps and the BOE will not bring back virtual so that’s off the table. We have no idea how one of my kids will get enough classes to graduate except if they take ab senior year after bc and statistics. Kinda lame.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

We need to accept larger class sizes at the secondary level anyway, PP, it's just a reality of our capital budget and real estate constraints, which do not allow MCPS to build as many schools as we would like.

My son had 31 kids in his first grade class, and that was a disaster, but his high school classes at Walter Johnson regularly had 30 kids and that was perfectly fine. Kids can tolerate large classes as they grow older.

The number of advanced classes in high school is limited by the number of classrooms (very long term budget issue) and/or teachers (short term budget issue and difficulties finding employable people). My youngest kid attends BCC, and despite having available classrooms, they cannot seem to get their act together to meet demand for some advanced classes. Last year they indicated that they might not offer AP Chem every year, and there was a parent backlash. This year they offered just one AP Chem class for the whole school, reserved for 11th and 12th graders, which shut out some 9th and 10th graders who were interested and qualified. And even if a class is offered, sometimes the actual content doesn't match the official description: my kid is taking AP Physics C, which according to the transcript is composed of Mechanics and Electricity and Magnetism, but they were told that only Mechanics would be actually taught, with prep for the AP Mech exam. Which means kids are on their own to take the E&M AP exam, and how do they explain to colleges that their school just refuses to teach the second semester of that course???

What this means is that advanced kids need to be careful because what they're planning for their future might not actually be available once they get to those higher grades; and their trajectory for college admissions might get derailed because the school doesn't actually offer what the website says they offer. The admissions officers see all these APs and post-APs that are "officially" available, and thinks candidates didn't seize opportunities, but no, kids get shut out of classes all the time. This needs to be explained in college apps.

You don't get those AP classes either at SMCS. Kids do self-learning and get 5 on about half of the AP tests. Isn't it more appealing to college admission that you get 5 on a test that doesn't have a course attached?

Yes, you're right. But my complaint is that MCPS vaunts its multiple AP offerings, on each of their high school websites, when in reality it's all a bunch of lies. Often AP classes are restricted to older students, and sometimes apparently a school can just blow off the course description and teach only half of it, but still pretend on the transcript that they taught the entire thing. At least at SMCS, you know what you're getting into. You make plans for self-study, or whatever.

It’s fine to restrict apps to older kids but at least you get them. We only have a handful of them.

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Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Not sure what you are saying makes zero sense.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 instead of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2? That decision already was made by the state.

MVC at all schools? The need is there, already, for any STEM-focused student having taken the standard MCPS acceleration offerings (Algebra in 7th), and that happens everywhere in the county. It is likely to be even more the case as soon as the Integrated Algebra change comes into play. Meanwhile, the BOE has been all about equity, and having MVC ar some schools but not others is a rather obvious inequity, especially based on the differential demographics where that plays out.

Basing course options in core subjects based on "community pull" instead of meeting the needs of students across the system? Now, I'd agree on that not making sense.

As for the BOE making it "clear" that MVC will not be at all schools, that is something I haven't heard and would think is a supposition coming from central office or from a community where advanced classes such as that already are offered. Is there a public meeting where they proclaimed this? Or is it based on some MCPS presentation to the BOE where the fact that some schools provide offerings that others do not was buried in a slide and hand-waived over, with the fact that the BOE did not, then, raise direct questions or reject the presentation entirely taken as some BOE blessing of the differential experience that MCPS seems to tolerate because, as Malibu Stacy says, "Math is hard..." (PS -- so is equity).

Slide 19 on the latest BOE meeting slide deck when discussing the updates about secondary program analysis:
https://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DKRJWU4F383C/$file/10.01%20Program%20Analysis%20Boundary%20Studies%20Comm%20Engage%20Plan%20Update%20250821%20PPT%20REV.pdf

Slide 19 says nothing that "makes it clear" MVC won't be at all schools.

On the right side of the slide, it lists only AP courses (with reference to "or IB"). MVC is neither an AP course nor an IB course. It is the next level in progression from AP Calculus BC content, and The College Board has not made such a course available as an AP.

The left side is considerably more ambiguous. Noted are "course progression opportunities," including "advanced courses" and listing Math among other subject areas -- nothing either prescribing or proscribing MVC.

And the deck was from MCPS central office, not the BOE. It was presented with the above-noted hand-waving ("just an example...of what our high schools could offer"). There was commentary from BOE members about ensuring access to equitably rigorous/broad programs and classes across regions and schools (sadly, without a clear statement from MCPS affirming that -- more like, "We're trying."). However, there were no clarifying remarks or questions that drove to whether a course like MVC (or even the two higher AP Physics C course segments, as only "Physics" was listed) might be in consideration.

The BOE easily could push to ensure equitable access to core courses needed to complete a progression begun under MCPS curricular standards for acceleration. Whether they will do so...???

You do realize this is pretty much no change and the minimal schools will still be minimal so this really hurts dcc students. The w school kids will be fine as their schools offer plenty of options. They are not trying.

Which is why the BOE should be ensuring MVC for all schools.

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Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Could not agree more. Makes no sense. I think for some parents it's some sort of flex that their kid is on some super advanced math track. This fails to look at the long game where down the road they run out of classes in MCPS and/or the classes become too challenging.

Even regional model is implemented and these advanced math courses are offered at regional STEM programs, how to make sure students taking the advanced track got accepted to these programs? I'd imagine guaranteed admission would result in favor of push-in and potential corruption...

One way would be to give STEM-magnet admission priority to standard (or above) acceleration students whose home school would not offer the advanced courses locally. But that would create its own inequity.

Better just to make sure enough advanced courses are offered at every school so that no student is asked to slow down/accept discontinuity (e.g., take a filler course after Integrated Algebra, start with Calc AB instead of BC, settle for AP Stats after BC instead of MVC or take on the burden/diminished experience of dual enrollment/virtual classes where in-person is offered to others in the same situation elsewhere in the system).

You are making the assumption that all kids want these magnets vs. choosing the classes they want to take as electives. Many don't want the magnets. The solution is to make sure that all schools have AP's in Math, Science, Computer Science, Engineering and a minimum math of MV. And, where they cannot do it, align the school schedules and do it virtually. MC is not realistic for all kids due to transportation and schedules.

Not at all making that assumption -- offering magnet admission simply would provide those students a choice (home or magnet), just as a choice is provided to students at schools where the advanced classes are offered (though without having to travel to a magnet).

But, again, better simply to make sure enough advanced classes are available locally at all schools in core subjects, as you agree, to support student need. I don't think there is an engineering AP, but having both AP Physics C exams universally supported would help. Ditto AP CS A/Java.

Virtual could be used if shown to deliver robustly enough. In-person for some but virtual for others is an inequity, however.

Some schools don't even have AP for science classes. Virtual was done very well in the MVA but instead of expanding it the BOE and central office selfishly cut it. The issue with virtual would be they would need to align all the HS schedules, which wouldn't be hard.

Inequity is not having access to it. Virtual is far better than not having it at all and regardless of in person or virtual the important factor is having a good teacher.

Inequity also is not having access to equivalent programming, very much along the lines of separate ≠ equal. Virtual for some and in-person for others is inequitable, given the differences seen in student experience between the two. All-virtual might be an option...with a good teacher being key, as suggested.

We liked virtual but virtual is far better than nothing which many of our kids go through.

We should be settling for equitable, not "better than nothing."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

MCPS makes a standard level of acceleration available at each ES/MS. Currently, that standard leads to the completion of PreAlgebra in 6th grade, and logically would continue with an honors veraion of PreCalc in 9th to bridge between Integrated Algebra 2 and college-level courses. It is incumbent upon MCPS to ensure classes that would follow in this core subject are equitably available.

There would need to be three of those to afford one per year in high school, beginning with AP Calculus. While an AB/BC progression over two years, followed by AP Stats, would provide an off-ramp for academically advanced but not STEM-focused students, taking BC (which covers AB material) directly would be correct for the more mathematically inclined. That would have to continue immediately with MVC due to its progression-essential concept continuity. After that, AP Stats, itself valuable to the STEM-focused, would fill the void, avoiding the extreme difficulty in equitable non-magnet provision across all schools of Linear Algebra & Differential Equations, themselves part of a college Mathematics progression but less essential to take in the immediate aftermath of the Calculus progression.

What is the differential cost? Assuming provision of AB, BC & Stats are baked in at all schools, assuming that each of the schools containing a regional STEM (SMCS and/or Engineering) magnet program would have MVC anyway and assuming that 4-5 other schools currently offering it would continue to do so, there might need to be the addition of 15 sections of MVC across the system. Even if not addressed with current internal staff by the shift of .2 FTE to the new local section (3 FTE total if student redistribution does not result in an equivalent number of Math classes overall), this could be managed with 5 FTEs -- roving specialists, each teaching one section at three schools, with a 2-period allocation for travel time. Those would be more expensive than a typical HS FTE, of course, but perhaps between $1M and $1.5M, and that is if the less costly internal staff solution proves universally unmanageable at all schools that wouldn't otherwise offer MVC.

What about those accelerating beyond the standard MCPS offering (e.g., Algebra in 6th)? Like with many accommodations, students and families would need to be aware that such placement, while available, would not be supported in the same manner as standard offerings. If not accessing the regional Math-focused magnet, this is where an expectation of access (e.g., for Linear Algebra & Differential Equations) via Dual Enrollment or, perhaps, virtual, for every school but the magnet, rightly would come into play.

Magnet has limited enrollment and not all kids want it. Mc is impossible to work with after school activities and schedules don’t align. Have you considered the cost to Mcps for Mc vs in-house. Mcps and the BOE will not bring back virtual so that’s off the table. We have no idea how one of my kids will get enough classes to graduate except if they take ab senior year after bc and statistics. Kinda lame.

If a student/family chooses not to attend an offered magney, that is their choice, and it may mean they give up in-school access to the magnet classes (e.g., Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, etc.).

You would be correct in discounting the top-line cost by the alternative cost of utilizing MC. I don't have such numbers. The additional burdens taken on by individual students/families, and for which there is no financial accounting, associated with MC logistics are among the reasons that core subject sequentially important classes like MVC should be equitably available to students across the system from their local school.

MD Delegates and State Senators really should look at the math-in-every-year graduation requirement and work with MSDE to consider exempting those who reach a certain post-HS level (say, successfully having taken enough Math APs to pass out of the general UMD undergrad Math requirement), without interest in further pursuit (e.g., not planning on a STEM career).

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Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Not sure what you are saying makes zero sense.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 instead of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2? That decision already was made by the state.

MVC at all schools? The need is there, already, for any STEM-focused student having taken the standard MCPS acceleration offerings (Algebra in 7th), and that happens everywhere in the county. It is likely to be even more the case as soon as the Integrated Algebra change comes into play. Meanwhile, the BOE has been all about equity, and having MVC ar some schools but not others is a rather obvious inequity, especially based on the differential demographics where that plays out.

Basing course options in core subjects based on "community pull" instead of meeting the needs of students across the system? Now, I'd agree on that not making sense.

As for the BOE making it "clear" that MVC will not be at all schools, that is something I haven't heard and would think is a supposition coming from central office or from a community where advanced classes such as that already are offered. Is there a public meeting where they proclaimed this? Or is it based on some MCPS presentation to the BOE where the fact that some schools provide offerings that others do not was buried in a slide and hand-waived over, with the fact that the BOE did not, then, raise direct questions or reject the presentation entirely taken as some BOE blessing of the differential experience that MCPS seems to tolerate because, as Malibu Stacy says, "Math is hard..." (PS -- so is equity).

Slide 19 on the latest BOE meeting slide deck when discussing the updates about secondary program analysis:
https://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DKRJWU4F383C/$file/10.01%20Program%20Analysis%20Boundary%20Studies%20Comm%20Engage%20Plan%20Update%20250821%20PPT%20REV.pdf

Slide 19 says nothing that "makes it clear" MVC won't be at all schools.

On the right side of the slide, it lists only AP courses (with reference to "or IB"). MVC is neither an AP course nor an IB course. It is the next level in progression from AP Calculus BC content, and The College Board has not made such a course available as an AP.

The left side is considerably more ambiguous. Noted are "course progression opportunities," including "advanced courses" and listing Math among other subject areas -- nothing either prescribing or proscribing MVC.

And the deck was from MCPS central office, not the BOE. It was presented with the above-noted hand-waving ("just an example...of what our high schools could offer"). There was commentary from BOE members about ensuring access to equitably rigorous/broad programs and classes across regions and schools (sadly, without a clear statement from MCPS affirming that -- more like, "We're trying."). However, there were no clarifying remarks or questions that drove to whether a course like MVC (or even the two higher AP Physics C course segments, as only "Physics" was listed) might be in consideration.

The BOE easily could push to ensure equitable access to core courses needed to complete a progression begun under MCPS curricular standards for acceleration. Whether they will do so...???

You do realize this is pretty much no change and the minimal schools will still be minimal so this really hurts dcc students. The w school kids will be fine as their schools offer plenty of options. They are not trying.

Which is why the BOE should be ensuring MVC for all schools.

They aren't going to. Our principal says its their choice and they refuse to offer it. We have teachers willing and able to teach it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

MCPS makes a standard level of acceleration available at each ES/MS. Currently, that standard leads to the completion of PreAlgebra in 6th grade, and logically would continue with an honors veraion of PreCalc in 9th to bridge between Integrated Algebra 2 and college-level courses. It is incumbent upon MCPS to ensure classes that would follow in this core subject are equitably available.

There would need to be three of those to afford one per year in high school, beginning with AP Calculus. While an AB/BC progression over two years, followed by AP Stats, would provide an off-ramp for academically advanced but not STEM-focused students, taking BC (which covers AB material) directly would be correct for the more mathematically inclined. That would have to continue immediately with MVC due to its progression-essential concept continuity. After that, AP Stats, itself valuable to the STEM-focused, would fill the void, avoiding the extreme difficulty in equitable non-magnet provision across all schools of Linear Algebra & Differential Equations, themselves part of a college Mathematics progression but less essential to take in the immediate aftermath of the Calculus progression.

What is the differential cost? Assuming provision of AB, BC & Stats are baked in at all schools, assuming that each of the schools containing a regional STEM (SMCS and/or Engineering) magnet program would have MVC anyway and assuming that 4-5 other schools currently offering it would continue to do so, there might need to be the addition of 15 sections of MVC across the system. Even if not addressed with current internal staff by the shift of .2 FTE to the new local section (3 FTE total if student redistribution does not result in an equivalent number of Math classes overall), this could be managed with 5 FTEs -- roving specialists, each teaching one section at three schools, with a 2-period allocation for travel time. Those would be more expensive than a typical HS FTE, of course, but perhaps between $1M and $1.5M, and that is if the less costly internal staff solution proves universally unmanageable at all schools that wouldn't otherwise offer MVC.

What about those accelerating beyond the standard MCPS offering (e.g., Algebra in 6th)? Like with many accommodations, students and families would need to be aware that such placement, while available, would not be supported in the same manner as standard offerings. If not accessing the regional Math-focused magnet, this is where an expectation of access (e.g., for Linear Algebra & Differential Equations) via Dual Enrollment or, perhaps, virtual, for every school but the magnet, rightly would come into play.

Magnet has limited enrollment and not all kids want it. Mc is impossible to work with after school activities and schedules don’t align. Have you considered the cost to Mcps for Mc vs in-house. Mcps and the BOE will not bring back virtual so that’s off the table. We have no idea how one of my kids will get enough classes to graduate except if they take ab senior year after bc and statistics. Kinda lame.

If a student/family chooses not to attend an offered magney, that is their choice, and it may mean they give up in-school access to the magnet classes (e.g., Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, etc.).

You would be correct in discounting the top-line cost by the alternative cost of utilizing MC. I don't have such numbers. The additional burdens taken on by individual students/families, and for which there is no financial accounting, associated with MC logistics are among the reasons that core subject sequentially important classes like MVC should be equitably available to students across the system from their local school.

MD Delegates and State Senators really should look at the math-in-every-year graduation requirement and work with MSDE to consider exempting those who reach a certain post-HS level (say, successfully having taken enough Math APs to pass out of the general UMD undergrad Math requirement), without interest in further pursuit (e.g., not planning on a STEM career).

No one is going to look at it. There are 100 slots at Blair. It's nearly impossible to get in, but logistically, it's impossible for kids with outside activities. MC is also logistically impossible, as if you do it at night, you cannot do activities or sports, and during the day doesn't align with the MCPS calendar. And, if its not virtual, there is also a transportation issue. We were told to buy our child a car so they can go to MC. That's not a reasonable expense. MCPS will also not allow outside courses parent-paid, which is far cheaper than a car.

If the argument is cost-effective, paying for classes at MC is not cost-effective.

If the argument is cost savings, we should offer the same classes at all high schools and get rid of any specialty classes. That would be true equity and cost savings. No more school or class choice.

Kids don't have enough classes to graduate on this path at some schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Not sure what you are saying makes zero sense.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 instead of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2? That decision already was made by the state.

MVC at all schools? The need is there, already, for any STEM-focused student having taken the standard MCPS acceleration offerings (Algebra in 7th), and that happens everywhere in the county. It is likely to be even more the case as soon as the Integrated Algebra change comes into play. Meanwhile, the BOE has been all about equity, and having MVC ar some schools but not others is a rather obvious inequity, especially based on the differential demographics where that plays out.

Basing course options in core subjects based on "community pull" instead of meeting the needs of students across the system? Now, I'd agree on that not making sense.

As for the BOE making it "clear" that MVC will not be at all schools, that is something I haven't heard and would think is a supposition coming from central office or from a community where advanced classes such as that already are offered. Is there a public meeting where they proclaimed this? Or is it based on some MCPS presentation to the BOE where the fact that some schools provide offerings that others do not was buried in a slide and hand-waived over, with the fact that the BOE did not, then, raise direct questions or reject the presentation entirely taken as some BOE blessing of the differential experience that MCPS seems to tolerate because, as Malibu Stacy says, "Math is hard..." (PS -- so is equity).

Slide 19 on the latest BOE meeting slide deck when discussing the updates about secondary program analysis:
https://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DKRJWU4F383C/$file/10.01%20Program%20Analysis%20Boundary%20Studies%20Comm%20Engage%20Plan%20Update%20250821%20PPT%20REV.pdf

Slide 19 says nothing that "makes it clear" MVC won't be at all schools.

On the right side of the slide, it lists only AP courses (with reference to "or IB"). MVC is neither an AP course nor an IB course. It is the next level in progression from AP Calculus BC content, and The College Board has not made such a course available as an AP.

The left side is considerably more ambiguous. Noted are "course progression opportunities," including "advanced courses" and listing Math among other subject areas -- nothing either prescribing or proscribing MVC.

And the deck was from MCPS central office, not the BOE. It was presented with the above-noted hand-waving ("just an example...of what our high schools could offer"). There was commentary from BOE members about ensuring access to equitably rigorous/broad programs and classes across regions and schools (sadly, without a clear statement from MCPS affirming that -- more like, "We're trying."). However, there were no clarifying remarks or questions that drove to whether a course like MVC (or even the two higher AP Physics C course segments, as only "Physics" was listed) might be in consideration.

The BOE easily could push to ensure equitable access to core courses needed to complete a progression begun under MCPS curricular standards for acceleration. Whether they will do so...???

You do realize this is pretty much no change and the minimal schools will still be minimal so this really hurts dcc students. The w school kids will be fine as their schools offer plenty of options. They are not trying.

Which is why the BOE should be ensuring MVC for all schools.

They aren't going to. Our principal says its their choice and they refuse to offer it. We have teachers willing and able to teach it.

If the BOE adopts the policy, then the principal will not have that choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

MCPS makes a standard level of acceleration available at each ES/MS. Currently, that standard leads to the completion of PreAlgebra in 6th grade, and logically would continue with an honors veraion of PreCalc in 9th to bridge between Integrated Algebra 2 and college-level courses. It is incumbent upon MCPS to ensure classes that would follow in this core subject are equitably available.

There would need to be three of those to afford one per year in high school, beginning with AP Calculus. While an AB/BC progression over two years, followed by AP Stats, would provide an off-ramp for academically advanced but not STEM-focused students, taking BC (which covers AB material) directly would be correct for the more mathematically inclined. That would have to continue immediately with MVC due to its progression-essential concept continuity. After that, AP Stats, itself valuable to the STEM-focused, would fill the void, avoiding the extreme difficulty in equitable non-magnet provision across all schools of Linear Algebra & Differential Equations, themselves part of a college Mathematics progression but less essential to take in the immediate aftermath of the Calculus progression.

What is the differential cost? Assuming provision of AB, BC & Stats are baked in at all schools, assuming that each of the schools containing a regional STEM (SMCS and/or Engineering) magnet program would have MVC anyway and assuming that 4-5 other schools currently offering it would continue to do so, there might need to be the addition of 15 sections of MVC across the system. Even if not addressed with current internal staff by the shift of .2 FTE to the new local section (3 FTE total if student redistribution does not result in an equivalent number of Math classes overall), this could be managed with 5 FTEs -- roving specialists, each teaching one section at three schools, with a 2-period allocation for travel time. Those would be more expensive than a typical HS FTE, of course, but perhaps between $1M and $1.5M, and that is if the less costly internal staff solution proves universally unmanageable at all schools that wouldn't otherwise offer MVC.

What about those accelerating beyond the standard MCPS offering (e.g., Algebra in 6th)? Like with many accommodations, students and families would need to be aware that such placement, while available, would not be supported in the same manner as standard offerings. If not accessing the regional Math-focused magnet, this is where an expectation of access (e.g., for Linear Algebra & Differential Equations) via Dual Enrollment or, perhaps, virtual, for every school but the magnet, rightly would come into play.

Magnet has limited enrollment and not all kids want it. Mc is impossible to work with after school activities and schedules don’t align. Have you considered the cost to Mcps for Mc vs in-house. Mcps and the BOE will not bring back virtual so that’s off the table. We have no idea how one of my kids will get enough classes to graduate except if they take ab senior year after bc and statistics. Kinda lame.

If a student/family chooses not to attend an offered magney, that is their choice, and it may mean they give up in-school access to the magnet classes (e.g., Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, etc.).

You would be correct in discounting the top-line cost by the alternative cost of utilizing MC. I don't have such numbers. The additional burdens taken on by individual students/families, and for which there is no financial accounting, associated with MC logistics are among the reasons that core subject sequentially important classes like MVC should be equitably available to students across the system from their local school.

MD Delegates and State Senators really should look at the math-in-every-year graduation requirement and work with MSDE to consider exempting those who reach a certain post-HS level (say, successfully having taken enough Math APs to pass out of the general UMD undergrad Math requirement), without interest in further pursuit (e.g., not planning on a STEM career).

No one is going to look at it. There are 100 slots at Blair. It's nearly impossible to get in, but logistically, it's impossible for kids with outside activities. MC is also logistically impossible, as if you do it at night, you cannot do activities or sports, and during the day doesn't align with the MCPS calendar. And, if its not virtual, there is also a transportation issue. We were told to buy our child a car so they can go to MC. That's not a reasonable expense. MCPS will also not allow outside courses parent-paid, which is far cheaper than a car.

If the argument is cost-effective, paying for classes at MC is not cost-effective.

If the argument is cost savings, we should offer the same classes at all high schools and get rid of any specialty classes. That would be true equity and cost savings. No more school or class choice.

Kids don't have enough classes to graduate on this path at some schools.

They won't if nobody asks them.

Regarding SMCS, regionalization should end up providing about double the current capacity. Not a panacea, of course.

I agree that MCPS should be providing adequate, equitable, preferably locally delivered class paths to all students that embark on MCPS-wide/standard Math acceleration offerings. After Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 in 7th & 8th, that would mean, for those aiming at STEM in college, some flavor of Honors PreCalc in 9th, AP Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and AP Stats in 12th, presuming they won't be offering Linear Algebra and/or Differential Equations outside of a STEM magnet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What needs to be mentioned is the challenge for the school district. I get it, we all want our child to be challenged at their highest level and supported. However, a school district and one with 160K students, has to offer its programming and support at scale. This is the exact problem with Special Education. People get IEP plans, which while valid and likely would help, have nothing to do with the personnel or operations to implement them.

What do I mean by this? Imagine your kid is math advanced and will take MV by junior year. You want them to keep moving forward and so do they. Next stop Linear Algebra. But only a very small number of kids need to take this course. Meanwhile a much larger number of kids need to take Alg2. So a LA course with 12 people is offered meanwhile all the Alg2 classes have 30 kids. Next stop folks complaining about class sizes. The district agrees that smaller class sizes would be helpful all around; for kids, teachers, for outcomes. But, the constraints are the constraints. There’s the real budget, there’s a set salary scale for all teachers, there’s a non ideal teaching situation limiting the hiring pool. And to top it off, parents can’t be reasoned with that LA doesn’t need to be a highschool course offering and students should take it at the university.

How do you solve that problem? Either you just stop offering LA and/or you stop offering or severely limit Alg1 in 6th which stops the pipeline of students needing the course. This is the reality. You all are arguing and fighting the wrong problem with the wrong people. Go talk to politicians to get them to support real true education and family life reform and innovation, both in concept and dollars.

MCPS makes a standard level of acceleration available at each ES/MS. Currently, that standard leads to the completion of PreAlgebra in 6th grade, and logically would continue with an honors veraion of PreCalc in 9th to bridge between Integrated Algebra 2 and college-level courses. It is incumbent upon MCPS to ensure classes that would follow in this core subject are equitably available.

There would need to be three of those to afford one per year in high school, beginning with AP Calculus. While an AB/BC progression over two years, followed by AP Stats, would provide an off-ramp for academically advanced but not STEM-focused students, taking BC (which covers AB material) directly would be correct for the more mathematically inclined. That would have to continue immediately with MVC due to its progression-essential concept continuity. After that, AP Stats, itself valuable to the STEM-focused, would fill the void, avoiding the extreme difficulty in equitable non-magnet provision across all schools of Linear Algebra & Differential Equations, themselves part of a college Mathematics progression but less essential to take in the immediate aftermath of the Calculus progression.

What is the differential cost? Assuming provision of AB, BC & Stats are baked in at all schools, assuming that each of the schools containing a regional STEM (SMCS and/or Engineering) magnet program would have MVC anyway and assuming that 4-5 other schools currently offering it would continue to do so, there might need to be the addition of 15 sections of MVC across the system. Even if not addressed with current internal staff by the shift of .2 FTE to the new local section (3 FTE total if student redistribution does not result in an equivalent number of Math classes overall), this could be managed with 5 FTEs -- roving specialists, each teaching one section at three schools, with a 2-period allocation for travel time. Those would be more expensive than a typical HS FTE, of course, but perhaps between $1M and $1.5M, and that is if the less costly internal staff solution proves universally unmanageable at all schools that wouldn't otherwise offer MVC.

What about those accelerating beyond the standard MCPS offering (e.g., Algebra in 6th)? Like with many accommodations, students and families would need to be aware that such placement, while available, would not be supported in the same manner as standard offerings. If not accessing the regional Math-focused magnet, this is where an expectation of access (e.g., for Linear Algebra & Differential Equations) via Dual Enrollment or, perhaps, virtual, for every school but the magnet, rightly would come into play.

Magnet has limited enrollment and not all kids want it. Mc is impossible to work with after school activities and schedules don’t align. Have you considered the cost to Mcps for Mc vs in-house. Mcps and the BOE will not bring back virtual so that’s off the table. We have no idea how one of my kids will get enough classes to graduate except if they take ab senior year after bc and statistics. Kinda lame.

If a student/family chooses not to attend an offered magney, that is their choice, and it may mean they give up in-school access to the magnet classes (e.g., Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, etc.).

You would be correct in discounting the top-line cost by the alternative cost of utilizing MC. I don't have such numbers. The additional burdens taken on by individual students/families, and for which there is no financial accounting, associated with MC logistics are among the reasons that core subject sequentially important classes like MVC should be equitably available to students across the system from their local school.

MD Delegates and State Senators really should look at the math-in-every-year graduation requirement and work with MSDE to consider exempting those who reach a certain post-HS level (say, successfully having taken enough Math APs to pass out of the general UMD undergrad Math requirement), without interest in further pursuit (e.g., not planning on a STEM career).

No one is going to look at it. There are 100 slots at Blair. It's nearly impossible to get in, but logistically, it's impossible for kids with outside activities. MC is also logistically impossible, as if you do it at night, you cannot do activities or sports, and during the day doesn't align with the MCPS calendar. And, if its not virtual, there is also a transportation issue. We were told to buy our child a car so they can go to MC. That's not a reasonable expense. MCPS will also not allow outside courses parent-paid, which is far cheaper than a car.

If the argument is cost-effective, paying for classes at MC is not cost-effective.

If the argument is cost savings, we should offer the same classes at all high schools and get rid of any specialty classes. That would be true equity and cost savings. No more school or class choice.

Kids don't have enough classes to graduate on this path at some schools.

They won't if nobody asks them.

Regarding SMCS, regionalization should end up providing about double the current capacity. Not a panacea, of course.

I agree that MCPS should be providing adequate, equitable, preferably locally delivered class paths to all students that embark on MCPS-wide/standard Math acceleration offerings. After Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 in 7th & 8th, that would mean, for those aiming at STEM in college, some flavor of Honors PreCalc in 9th, AP Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and AP Stats in 12th, presuming they won't be offering Linear Algebra and/or Differential Equations outside of a STEM magnet.

It's extremely unlikely that MCPS will delete a course from the middle of the progression. That makes no sense.

Traditional College Academic STEM path students will take an Integrated Algebra 3 to get the content missing from 1 and 2.

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Anonymous wrote:What is the point of doing it? If you all think your child will have a better chance at a top 15 then you are mistaken. Its not going to help. My DC took Algebra in 6th, pre calculus in 9th, MV, AP stats, linear algebra all by 12th grade. In addition to other AP science classes. He was waitlisted and then denied at MIT as well as other Ivy League schools. He was accepted to UMich, Georgia Tech etc.. but so were others who didn’t take all these advanced math classes. Most students at our large public who were accepted to Ivy schools were legacies and athletic recruits who did not take any such advanced classes. So chill..

You don't get it. My kid just wanted to not be bored in class. Accelerated math is the ONLY class where she doesn't pull out a book to read.

I couldn't care less about colleges. She'll do well wherever she goes.

You really must understand that different kids have different needs.

I get it. I have one of those kids. 260 map-m in third grade. It’s ok to be a little bored. What you aren’t thinking about is down the road. Most HS don’t even have the classes to support taking algebra in 7th. Highly doubt whatever MCPS is doing with the magnets is improving this.

PP you replied to. She's in high school now, and will either go to UMD or CC for an additional math class or take AP Stats at her high school after multivariable calc.

This isn't a little boredom. I cannot ask her to be miserable her entire K-12 years and be depressed. She was depressed before. She's accelerated everywhere as much as her high school has allowed her to be. She's taking two languages to AP level, for example. She has skipped some pre-requisites to do all the core STEM APs.

We thought about homeschooling, because she's way beyond the typical level of a high schooler, but she has friends at this high school. MCPS serves her social needs.

My other kids are not like this, and were satisfactorily challenged by their AP classes and their normal academic tracks. But sometimes, you get a kid like my daughter, and just like for students with special needs, it becomes really worthwhile to fight for a different academic track. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that she does have special needs... of a different sort, that's all.

Then you should have had her apply to magnet or do dual enrollment.

DP: There aren't enough slots in magnets. You'd probably have to cosa but we were told no. MC is impossible due to activities and transportation and online conflicts with other classes and activities.

MCPS should align the HS schedules and offer it virtually if they will not at each school.

A typical path could be:

6th: Algebra
7th: Geometry
8th: Algebra 2
9th: Precalculus
10th: Calc AB or BC
11: Calc BC or MV
12: Linear Algebra or Statistics or something else

Also, with the inequity in MCPS, they will bus some kids to a different school for math, but not others. I've heard them bus 1-2 kids for other schools but they refused to bus mine.

With the new “integrated math” that state education office just approved, will geometry be replaced with integrated math, or Algebra 1+geometry be replaced together with 2-yr of this IM course? I’m very confused as MCPS websites have inconsistent quotes from place to place.

Integrated Algebra 1 & 2 will cover much of current Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2 content. Where they put the missing bits (Trigonometry, some Stats, etc.) may depend on the track chosen afterwards.

There will be 4 post-Algebra tracks, and not all would require that then-missing content to have been learned. The one which would would be the path to/past Calculus that many MCPS students would expect to take, especially those more academically inclined and/or STEM-focused. Whether they add that material to a PreCalc class or create a buffer course (or both, with an accelerated PreCalc+ option for those not intending to slow down with the buffer, but the buffer plus standard PreCalc available for those that need it), or whether they arrive at a different solution, is not yet determined.

Thanks for the constructive explanation. This really helps! So a kid who is allowed to enter Algebra at 6th grade previously will now use 2-yrs to complete Algebra 1 + Geometry + Algebra 2 with this new IM. Then they would go preCalc for 8th grade, Calc for 9th grade, then math electives afterwards? That sounds like an over-acceleration path. Out of SMCS, I don't believe other MCPS HSs offer things beyond MVC and AP Stat. In SMCS, AP Stat is a semester-long course, so kids in SMCS will exhaust all math elective options.

There are schools, besides those housing SMCS, which offer Linear Algebra and Differential Equations in addition to MVC. They are offered based on community pull, which means that well-organized family groups have opportunities not afforded to less well-organized, often poorer, communities.

Terming advanced course opportunities "over"-acceleration would be misleading unless gracefully allowing for them relative to student ability and interest. Cases more clearly related to push, then, might be deemed over-accelerated.

MCPS clearly does not offer Algebra in 6th across the system as part of standard acceleration options. Those accessing it so early must do so with eyes open to the course needs further on, planning for dual enrollment as might be necessary.

As Algebra in 7th is part of the acceleration standard provided system-wide, it should be MCPS's responsibility to ensure equitable access, likewise across the system, to any student pursuing that path. In future years, should some flavor of advanced Precalc in 9th follow Integrated Algebra 2 for those able, Calc BC in 10th, MVC in 11th and at least one other year of college-level coursework, AP Stats, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations or other, will be needed at all schools to fulfill that responsibility.

Only the W schools and a few others offer MV. It will not be at all schools, and the BOE has been clear. THis path makes zero sense.

Could not agree more. Makes no sense. I think for some parents it's some sort of flex that their kid is on some super advanced math track. This fails to look at the long game where down the road they run out of classes in MCPS and/or the classes become too challenging.

Even regional model is implemented and these advanced math courses are offered at regional STEM programs, how to make sure students taking the advanced track got accepted to these programs? I'd imagine guaranteed admission would result in favor of push-in and potential corruption...

One way would be to give STEM-magnet admission priority to standard (or above) acceleration students whose home school would not offer the advanced courses locally. But that would create its own inequity.

Better just to make sure enough advanced courses are offered at every school so that no student is asked to slow down/accept discontinuity (e.g., take a filler course after Integrated Algebra, start with Calc AB instead of BC, settle for AP Stats after BC instead of MVC or take on the burden/diminished experience of dual enrollment/virtual classes where in-person is offered to others in the same situation elsewhere in the system).

You are making the assumption that all kids want these magnets vs. choosing the classes they want to take as electives. Many don't want the magnets. The solution is to make sure that all schools have AP's in Math, Science, Computer Science, Engineering and a minimum math of MV. And, where they cannot do it, align the school schedules and do it virtually. MC is not realistic for all kids due to transportation and schedules.

A tiny number of kids insisting on MV because they are too cool for AP Stats is not a reason to offer MV at every school. Even the SMCS magnet runs a stats course before MV.