Music Cuts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually don't understand what's being described. What is being eliminated, and why, and what is being retained?

The “why” is spelled out clearly:

- they are eliminating these music classes due to racial equity reasons.

FCPS has repeatedly stated their number one priority is: equity (the “E” in DEI).

They are eliminating them because westfield was breaking the rules and giving academic credit for after school activities.

Wrong. Re-read their own statement on page 1 of this thread. Here, I’ll paste it for you PP:

“Our administration at Westfield has decided to eliminate six after-school and before-school music classes. This decision was made due to what they perceive as a lack of equity in these classes,

lack of equity here means that other high schools did not do this and there is a lack of equity between the high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually don't understand what's being described. What is being eliminated, and why, and what is being retained?

The “why” is spelled out clearly:

- they are eliminating these music classes due to racial equity reasons.

FCPS has repeatedly stated their number one priority is: equity (the “E” in DEI).

They are eliminating them because westfield was breaking the rules and giving academic credit for after school activities.

Wrong. Re-read their own statement on page 1 of this thread. Here, I’ll paste it for you PP:

“Our administration at Westfield has decided to eliminate six after-school and before-school music classes. This decision was made due to what they perceive as a lack of equity in these classes,

lack of equity here means that other high schools did not do this and there is a lack of equity between the high schools.

Other high schools offer Honors band/orchestra/choir. If you look at the course catalog, there are something like 25 high schools that do. There is no "lack of equity" there. If anything, the WHS kids might be putting in more effort outside of school to earn the honors bump than kids at other schools. Or maybe that's the 'lack of equity' they're talking about, that these kids are working harder than kids in other high schools. But then, it makes no sense to take away the honors classes when other high schools do them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually don't understand what's being described. What is being eliminated, and why, and what is being retained?

The “why” is spelled out clearly:

- they are eliminating these music classes due to racial equity reasons.

FCPS has repeatedly stated their number one priority is: equity (the “E” in DEI).

They are eliminating them because westfield was breaking the rules and giving academic credit for after school activities.

Wrong. Re-read their own statement on page 1 of this thread. Here, I’ll paste it for you PP:

“Our administration at Westfield has decided to eliminate six after-school and before-school music classes. This decision was made due to what they perceive as a lack of equity in these classes,

lack of equity here means that other high schools did not do this and there is a lack of equity between the high schools.

Other high schools offer Honors band/orchestra/choir. If you look at the course catalog, there are something like 25 high schools that do. There is no "lack of equity" there. If anything, the WHS kids might be putting in more effort outside of school to earn the honors bump than kids at other schools. Or maybe that's the 'lack of equity' they're talking about, that these kids are working harder than kids in other high schools. But then, it makes no sense to take away the honors classes when other high schools do them.

The inequity is that the courses were before and after school. Other high schools do have honors classes during normal school hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

I have had advanced musicians at a different fcps.

When they rehearse after school for things like you describe, it is NOT for extra academic credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually don't understand what's being described. What is being eliminated, and why, and what is being retained?

The “why” is spelled out clearly:

- they are eliminating these music classes due to racial equity reasons.

FCPS has repeatedly stated their number one priority is: equity (the “E” in DEI).

They are eliminating them because westfield was breaking the rules and giving academic credit for after school activities.

Wrong. Re-read their own statement on page 1 of this thread. Here, I’ll paste it for you PP:

“Our administration at Westfield has decided to eliminate six after-school and before-school music classes. This decision was made due to what they perceive as a lack of equity in these classes,

lack of equity here means that other high schools did not do this and there is a lack of equity between the high schools.

Other high schools offer Honors band/orchestra/choir. If you look at the course catalog, there are something like 25 high schools that do. There is no "lack of equity" there. If anything, the WHS kids might be putting in more effort outside of school to earn the honors bump than kids at other schools. Or maybe that's the 'lack of equity' they're talking about, that these kids are working harder than kids in other high schools. But then, it makes no sense to take away the honors classes when other high schools do them.

The inequity is that the courses were before and after school. Other high schools do have honors classes during normal school hours.

+1! This isn’t hard or a gray area. It is not fair that Westfield offers credit bearing classes afterschool when others don’t. I’m surprised it has gotten away with it for so long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

The issue is not the after school ensemble (yay, great idea)

The issue is Westfield creating its own rules regarding giving academic credit for an after school club (issue #1) and for awarding 0.5 half credits in a district that only awards full credits and does not award half credits in any subjects (issue #2)

Kids who transfer into fcps from other states and private schools that award half credits have issues with FCPS accepting the half credits, because FCPS just does not do half credit classes, and does not offer credit for any class that only meets 90 minutes per week.

What Westfield is doing is the equivalent to giving academic credit to marching band, or to the musical pit orchestra which puts in more after school music hours than a 90 minute weekly after school class.

Also, 90 minute 1x per week is not even close to the equivalent of half the hours of class time of an academic class. It is closer to 40% of sn average FCPS class time, which is not a half credit.

If the kids want the advanced after school music opportunity, they will continue to do this after school club without the credit, like every other avanced music student in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

The issue is not the after school ensemble (yay, great idea)

The issue is Westfield creating its own rules regarding giving academic credit for an after school club (issue #1) and for awarding 0.5 half credits in a district that only awards full credits and does not award half credits in any subjects (issue #2)

Kids who transfer into fcps from other states and private schools that award half credits have issues with FCPS accepting the half credits, because FCPS just does not do half credit classes, and does not offer credit for any class that only meets 90 minutes per week.

What Westfield is doing is the equivalent to giving academic credit to marching band, or to the musical pit orchestra which puts in more after school music hours than a 90 minute weekly after school class.

Also, 90 minute 1x per week is not even close to the equivalent of half the hours of class time of an academic class. It is closer to 40% of sn average FCPS class time, which is not a half credit.

If the kids want the advanced after school music opportunity, they will continue to do this after school club without the credit, like every other avanced music student in FCPS.

Other schools are offering Honors band/orchestra (probably chorus too). That comes with a 0.5 Honors grade bump, so they ARE offering half credits. At least one other HS has the honors kids meeting outside of school time. Just checked, and they meet once a week, for 1 hour 45 minutes. This is not a situation unique to Westfield. What Westfield is doing now is unique in that they're getting rid of the honors courses entirely, and will probably be one of the few high schools (if not the only one) in FCPS without an honors music option.

[Anonymous]

Not a music parent and I am trying to understand this.

Are the Westfield honors music classes totally outside of normal school hours? Every music kid i've ever known does practice after school hours in addition to in school classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not a music parent and I am trying to understand this.

Are the Westfield honors music classes totally outside of normal school hours? Every music kid i've ever known does practice after school hours in addition to in school classes.

No. The honors orchestra/band classes at WHS (which I am familiar with) are regular music classes during normal school hours that has the additional commitment of 1.5 hours once a week after school hours for symphonic band (which combines string instruments with brass, wind, and percussion from band). Admission to the honors band/orchestra is contingent upon agreeing to participate in the symphonic rehearsals. I think the kids sign something to that effect. Practicing their instrument is of course done on their own time, in addition to that; my DD practices on average, about an hour a day, and has 2 private lessons a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

The issue is not the after school ensemble (yay, great idea)

The issue is Westfield creating its own rules regarding giving academic credit for an after school club (issue #1) and for awarding 0.5 half credits in a district that only awards full credits and does not award half credits in any subjects (issue #2)

Kids who transfer into fcps from other states and private schools that award half credits have issues with FCPS accepting the half credits, because FCPS just does not do half credit classes, and does not offer credit for any class that only meets 90 minutes per week.

What Westfield is doing is the equivalent to giving academic credit to marching band, or to the musical pit orchestra which puts in more after school music hours than a 90 minute weekly after school class.

Also, 90 minute 1x per week is not even close to the equivalent of half the hours of class time of an academic class. It is closer to 40% of sn average FCPS class time, which is not a half credit.

If the kids want the advanced after school music opportunity, they will continue to do this after school club without the credit, like every other avanced music student in FCPS.

Other schools are offering Honors band/orchestra (probably chorus too). That comes with a 0.5 Honors grade bump, so they ARE offering half credits. At least one other HS has the honors kids meeting outside of school time. Just checked, and they meet once a week, for 1 hour 45 minutes. This is not a situation unique to Westfield. What Westfield is doing now is unique in that they're getting rid of the honors courses entirely, and will probably be one of the few high schools (if not the only one) in FCPS without an honors music option.

No, you are completely incorrect.

You misunderstand the weighted GPA.

No music students in FCPS (except, apparently, at Westfield) receive a 0.5 credit for taking advanced music classes.

They do receive a GPA bump for the most advanced music class.

FCPS has a weighted GPA system in its high schools.

Standard classes receive a GPA on the 4.0 scale: As=4.0, Bs=3.0, Cs=2.0, etc, with a little more or less for plusses and minuses.

Honors classes receive a 0.5 GPA bump. So an A becomes a 4.5 GPA entry. The one most advance academic class for Choir, Band and Orchestra receives the 0.5 GPA bump because they are considered an honors class and usually have additional, more rigorous requirements and performances compared to other misic classes.

AP, IB, Dual Enrollment and Academy classes all receive a full 1.0 GPA boost, so an A becomes a 5.0, Bs become 4.0, etc.

Credit is not related to the GPA boost.

Credit is the mark you receive for taking and passing a class, whether you earn an A, a C minus or a Pass grade.

In FCPS, all credits are equal to a full class, or one. Some academy and IB classes might be 2 credits.

No high schools anywhere in FCPS award half credits for classes. If they did award half credits, the class would need to meet an equivalent amount of weekly hours as a full semester class, which averages to around 4-ish hours per week over the course of a semester, since all FCPS high school classes are roughly 90 minutes every other week.

90 minutes 1x week does not meet a full class in FCPS. It is less than half the required class hours to receive credit in FCPS.

Westfield giving academic credit for an after school activity meeting 90 minutes 1x week does not mert FCPS requirements for a GPA boost OR for class credit.

[Anonymous]

^ If PP is correct, FCPS was negligent not to realize it until now. That's what happens when the district ignores a particular school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ If PP is correct, FCPS was negligent not to realize it until now. That's what happens when the district ignores a particular school.

Isn't there a music coordinator for the county? Seems like this should have been caught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

The issue is not the after school ensemble (yay, great idea)

The issue is Westfield creating its own rules regarding giving academic credit for an after school club (issue #1) and for awarding 0.5 half credits in a district that only awards full credits and does not award half credits in any subjects (issue #2)

Kids who transfer into fcps from other states and private schools that award half credits have issues with FCPS accepting the half credits, because FCPS just does not do half credit classes, and does not offer credit for any class that only meets 90 minutes per week.

What Westfield is doing is the equivalent to giving academic credit to marching band, or to the musical pit orchestra which puts in more after school music hours than a 90 minute weekly after school class.

Also, 90 minute 1x per week is not even close to the equivalent of half the hours of class time of an academic class. It is closer to 40% of sn average FCPS class time, which is not a half credit.

If the kids want the advanced after school music opportunity, they will continue to do this after school club without the credit, like every other avanced music student in FCPS.

Other schools are offering Honors band/orchestra (probably chorus too). That comes with a 0.5 Honors grade bump, so they ARE offering half credits. At least one other HS has the honors kids meeting outside of school time. Just checked, and they meet once a week, for 1 hour 45 minutes. This is not a situation unique to Westfield. What Westfield is doing now is unique in that they're getting rid of the honors courses entirely, and will probably be one of the few high schools (if not the only one) in FCPS without an honors music option.

No, you are completely incorrect.

You misunderstand the weighted GPA.

No music students in FCPS (except, apparently, at Westfield) receive a 0.5 credit for taking advanced music classes.

They do receive a GPA bump for the most advanced music class.

FCPS has a weighted GPA system in its high schools.

Standard classes receive a GPA on the 4.0 scale: As=4.0, Bs=3.0, Cs=2.0, etc, with a little more or less for plusses and minuses.

Honors classes receive a 0.5 GPA bump. So an A becomes a 4.5 GPA entry. The one most advance academic class for Choir, Band and Orchestra receives the 0.5 GPA bump because they are considered an honors class and usually have additional, more rigorous requirements and performances compared to other misic classes.

AP, IB, Dual Enrollment and Academy classes all receive a full 1.0 GPA boost, so an A becomes a 5.0, Bs become 4.0, etc.

Credit is not related to the GPA boost.

Credit is the mark you receive for taking and passing a class, whether you earn an A, a C minus or a Pass grade.

In FCPS, all credits are equal to a full class, or one. Some academy and IB classes might be 2 credits.

No high schools anywhere in FCPS award half credits for classes. If they did award half credits, the class would need to meet an equivalent amount of weekly hours as a full semester class, which averages to around 4-ish hours per week over the course of a semester, since all FCPS high school classes are roughly 90 minutes every other week.

90 minutes 1x week does not meet a full class in FCPS. It is less than half the required class hours to receive credit in FCPS.

Westfield giving academic credit for an after school activity meeting 90 minutes 1x week does not mert FCPS requirements for a GPA boost OR for class credit.

This should say that high school classes meet every other day, NOT every other week.

I clicked the wrong word on the text.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ If PP is correct, FCPS was negligent not to realize it until now. That's what happens when the district ignores a particular school.

Isn't there a music coordinator for the county? Seems like this should have been caught.

The catching should have been done by the principal.