Music Cuts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ If PP is correct, FCPS was negligent not to realize it until now. That's what happens when the district ignores a particular school.

The 0.5 honors GPA bump is new, like from the past year. So it is not surprising to see growing pain with a 1 year old process. This year might actually be the first year it was implemented. It is good that it was caught so quickly.

It sounds like the sentiment behind this is well intentioned.

The mistake by Westfield just needs to be fixed and aligned to district policy, which seems to be happening quickly.

The perition reads like it was created by students who don't understand the new policy regarding the honors level music class GPA boost, as evident by them repeatedly calling it a 0.5 additional credit.

The differences between the two, credit vs GPA boost, are explained above.

What it sounds like to me is that Westfield implemented the new grading policy incorrectly, and the students writing the petition don't understand what the difference is between credits vs weighted GPA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

The issue is not the after school ensemble (yay, great idea)

The issue is Westfield creating its own rules regarding giving academic credit for an after school club (issue #1) and for awarding 0.5 half credits in a district that only awards full credits and does not award half credits in any subjects (issue #2)

Kids who transfer into fcps from other states and private schools that award half credits have issues with FCPS accepting the half credits, because FCPS just does not do half credit classes, and does not offer credit for any class that only meets 90 minutes per week.

What Westfield is doing is the equivalent to giving academic credit to marching band, or to the musical pit orchestra which puts in more after school music hours than a 90 minute weekly after school class.

Also, 90 minute 1x per week is not even close to the equivalent of half the hours of class time of an academic class. It is closer to 40% of sn average FCPS class time, which is not a half credit.

If the kids want the advanced after school music opportunity, they will continue to do this after school club without the credit, like every other avanced music student in FCPS.

Other schools are offering Honors band/orchestra (probably chorus too). That comes with a 0.5 Honors grade bump, so they ARE offering half credits. At least one other HS has the honors kids meeting outside of school time. Just checked, and they meet once a week, for 1 hour 45 minutes. This is not a situation unique to Westfield. What Westfield is doing now is unique in that they're getting rid of the honors courses entirely, and will probably be one of the few high schools (if not the only one) in FCPS without an honors music option.

No, you are completely incorrect.

You misunderstand the weighted GPA.

No music students in FCPS (except, apparently, at Westfield) receive a 0.5 credit for taking advanced music classes.

They do receive a GPA bump for the most advanced music class.

FCPS has a weighted GPA system in its high schools.

Standard classes receive a GPA on the 4.0 scale: As=4.0, Bs=3.0, Cs=2.0, etc, with a little more or less for plusses and minuses.

Honors classes receive a 0.5 GPA bump. So an A becomes a 4.5 GPA entry. The one most advance academic class for Choir, Band and Orchestra receives the 0.5 GPA bump because they are considered an honors class and usually have additional, more rigorous requirements and performances compared to other misic classes.

AP, IB, Dual Enrollment and Academy classes all receive a full 1.0 GPA boost, so an A becomes a 5.0, Bs become 4.0, etc.

Credit is not related to the GPA boost.

Credit is the mark you receive for taking and passing a class, whether you earn an A, a C minus or a Pass grade.

In FCPS, all credits are equal to a full class, or one. Some academy and IB classes might be 2 credits.

No high schools anywhere in FCPS award half credits for classes. If they did award half credits, the class would need to meet an equivalent amount of weekly hours as a full semester class, which averages to around 4-ish hours per week over the course of a semester, since all FCPS high school classes are roughly 90 minutes every other week.

90 minutes 1x week does not meet a full class in FCPS. It is less than half the required class hours to receive credit in FCPS.

Westfield giving academic credit for an after school activity meeting 90 minutes 1x week does not mert FCPS requirements for a GPA boost OR for class credit.

You're right. Until this, I didn't even realize that we're talking about 1/2 CREDIT, not the honors GPA boost. I checked DD's transcript, and sure enough, there is a course for the third quarter, but not for the first or second. I had no idea, and my daughter didn't, either. I don't think any of them care about the credit, just the GPA boost. Agreed that it is unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD goes to WHS and is a musician affected by this decision. She is in the most advanced ensemble for her instrument, and it’s an honors course, so she gets a 0.5 GPA bump. This is not unique to WHS; there are 25 or so high schools that offer honors band/orchestra, etc.

Everyone in the honors ensemble meets for 1.5 hours, once a week, outside of school hours. In this case, it’s a symphonic orchestra that otherwise does not meet during school hours (the kids take the most advanced orchestra and band separately during school hours and come together to form a full symphony during the after school hours). There is at least one other HS that does it in a similar manner (meets regularly after school, but not once a week) that I know of, because DD has friends that are in those ensembles. As far as I know, this is how things have been done for over a decade.

DD’s understanding is that the other arts departments complained that they don’t have similar offerings, leading to the cuts to level the playing field. She was told that this will result in honors ensembles being done away with entirely, and believes it will lead to further drop in participation.

Honors classes should be meeting during school hours. Extra practice is a thing, and I get that, but it should be extra and not a regularly scheduled extra that impacts a grade in school. Do we tell the kids taking honors math that they need to participate in math club, or it will impact their grade?

I would hope that the kids who are invested enough in music would be willing to continue to participate in the additional programs because of the different competitions and activities that come from it, just like the kids participating in any club does. The Math competition kids are not getting credit for attending the club and participating in competitions, they do it because they enjoy it and they think it will benefit them in some way. Extra music programs should be the same. And the Teachers should be paid as a club advisor if they are meeting like a club does.

I think the difference here is that honors math (for instance) has well defined extensions that can be done in class during class times. Honors Orchestra/Band (where the honors part is essentially playing symphonic works) cannot, as it brings together orchestra kids and band kids, and is separate from orchestra and band classes.

Unlike with math, there are no competitions or other activities that come with it, other than the yearly assessments that every school orchestra participates in, not just the honors one. Additionally, without the honors bump, participation in this brings down GPAs, disincentivizing kids from participating. Math and science has honors and APs, but this would not. Kids who would like to maintain high GPAs would probably end up taking AP Music Theory, or other APs instead of continuing to participate. They can (and usually do) participate in youth orchestras, so there is no unmet need here.

As someone who participated in music and has friends whose kids are participating in music, there are competitions and the like that the kids could be participating in. If the "extra practice" is 1.5 hours once a week then it can be treated like a club. The kids can choose to participate in a club that they benefit from, extra practice and instruction, and can probably find competitions or places that they could play above and beyond the school choir.

A kid who is interested in music should be interested in the club orchestra/band in the same way that a kid interested in math can choose to participate in the math clubs and math competitions.

I am not sure why there needs to be an honors band as an elective. Parents and students should understand that colleges unweight GPAs when they apply as it is so an A in orchestra/band is still an A.

I was responding to the PP who said that the orchestras can participate in competitions, like the kids doing math competitions and such. There are no orchestra competitions in school. Of course, kids can and do compete in music competitions, but those are on an individual basis, not on a 'team' basis. But that's neither here nor there; there isn't really a need for competitions.

A kid interested in orchestral music will benefit from participating in youth orchestras, and not so much school orchestras which are by and large, not nearly as good, and there is little to no instruction. Kids interested in being mathletes often don't really have an option to work as a team outside of their school, whereas music kids often do. IMO, if the schools want to retain their best kids in their music programs, it helps to incentivize them.

The issue is not the after school ensemble (yay, great idea)

The issue is Westfield creating its own rules regarding giving academic credit for an after school club (issue #1) and for awarding 0.5 half credits in a district that only awards full credits and does not award half credits in any subjects (issue #2)

Kids who transfer into fcps from other states and private schools that award half credits have issues with FCPS accepting the half credits, because FCPS just does not do half credit classes, and does not offer credit for any class that only meets 90 minutes per week.

What Westfield is doing is the equivalent to giving academic credit to marching band, or to the musical pit orchestra which puts in more after school music hours than a 90 minute weekly after school class.

Also, 90 minute 1x per week is not even close to the equivalent of half the hours of class time of an academic class. It is closer to 40% of sn average FCPS class time, which is not a half credit.

If the kids want the advanced after school music opportunity, they will continue to do this after school club without the credit, like every other avanced music student in FCPS.

Other schools are offering Honors band/orchestra (probably chorus too). That comes with a 0.5 Honors grade bump, so they ARE offering half credits. At least one other HS has the honors kids meeting outside of school time. Just checked, and they meet once a week, for 1 hour 45 minutes. This is not a situation unique to Westfield. What Westfield is doing now is unique in that they're getting rid of the honors courses entirely, and will probably be one of the few high schools (if not the only one) in FCPS without an honors music option.

No, you are completely incorrect.

You misunderstand the weighted GPA.

No music students in FCPS (except, apparently, at Westfield) receive a 0.5 credit for taking advanced music classes.

They do receive a GPA bump for the most advanced music class.

FCPS has a weighted GPA system in its high schools.

Standard classes receive a GPA on the 4.0 scale: As=4.0, Bs=3.0, Cs=2.0, etc, with a little more or less for plusses and minuses.

Honors classes receive a 0.5 GPA bump. So an A becomes a 4.5 GPA entry. The one most advance academic class for Choir, Band and Orchestra receives the 0.5 GPA bump because they are considered an honors class and usually have additional, more rigorous requirements and performances compared to other misic classes.

AP, IB, Dual Enrollment and Academy classes all receive a full 1.0 GPA boost, so an A becomes a 5.0, Bs become 4.0, etc.

Credit is not related to the GPA boost.

Credit is the mark you receive for taking and passing a class, whether you earn an A, a C minus or a Pass grade.

In FCPS, all credits are equal to a full class, or one. Some academy and IB classes might be 2 credits.

No high schools anywhere in FCPS award half credits for classes. If they did award half credits, the class would need to meet an equivalent amount of weekly hours as a full semester class, which averages to around 4-ish hours per week over the course of a semester, since all FCPS high school classes are roughly 90 minutes every other week.

90 minutes 1x week does not meet a full class in FCPS. It is less than half the required class hours to receive credit in FCPS.

Westfield giving academic credit for an after school activity meeting 90 minutes 1x week does not mert FCPS requirements for a GPA boost OR for class credit.

You're right. Until this, I didn't even realize that we're talking about 1/2 CREDIT, not the honors GPA boost. I checked DD's transcript, and sure enough, there is a course for the third quarter, but not for the first or second. I had no idea, and my daughter didn't, either. I don't think any of them care about the credit, just the GPA boost. Agreed that it is unnecessary.

Right.

And it is not surprising that it was not caught earlier by anyone at the district level, because who would even think to look for this? FCPS does not award half credits at all. It is not like half credits sometimes happen so it needs to be monitored. Half credits never happen in FCPS. No one would even think to look for this, until there was a complaint to bring it to their attention. I suspect that is what happened here, that Westfield was making up its own rules, perhaps misunderstanding the 0.5 GPA boost, until someone complained.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For my child's FCPS advanced band class, it is mandatory to participate in marching band. There are other extracurricular activities the advanced band students are required to participate in as well. The advanced band members get a 0.5 added to the GPA.

If a child doesn't want to be in marching band, then the child simply signs up for a lower-level band class.

I got the impression that this was normal for band programs in FCPS schools?

I'm thinking Westfield has a similar program, in that advanced band members are required to participate in after- or before-school classes to get the extra 0.5 boost to the GPA. But now, no more extra classes? Am I reading this right?

I think you're correct. They're also cutting jazz band classes and chorus classes that meet during the day.

Are you talking about Westfield specifically?

Or all of FCPS?

Just anecdotally, but at our high school, the top music students (choir, band and orchestra) have consistently had the best college acceptance outcomes, far better than athletes and non music smart kids.

Westfield specifically.

Westfield is barely being managed and if you question the admin you get nothing but shrugs. It is an issue. Admin there love to say well it's a big school....ummm ok it's a big county we still have to address issues for students. The principal is a not visible and most kids don't know him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

He mishandled multiple crises last year. He's not good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Agree and CHS has one of the best principals in fcps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Agree and CHS has one of the best principals in fcps.

Stone MS has amazing admin as well!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

He mishandled multiple crises last year. He's not good.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

He mishandled multiple crises last year. He's not good.

What happened last year? This year has been uneventful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

He mishandled multiple crises last year. He's not good.

What happened last year? This year has been uneventful

Many things if you are a Westfield parent you know. Also a major issue at Westfield is problems don't get handled even when they are fully the schools fault-admin makes it the students fault and ignores it. It's not ok!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

He mishandled multiple crises last year. He's not good.

What happened last year? This year has been uneventful

Many things if you are a Westfield parent you know. Also a major issue at Westfield is problems don't get handled even when they are fully the schools fault-admin makes it the students fault and ignores it. It's not ok!!!!!!!!!!

Um.... I'm a westfield parent and I have no idea what you are talking about about

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Agree and CHS has one of the best principals in fcps.

Stone MS has amazing admin as well!

What?!l The admin there at Stone are TERRIBLE. People literally homeschool to avoid Stone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend was complaining that her Westfield child's journalism class was cut for next year-literally no journalism classes will be offered at all, and no school paper. Seems like the school is poorly run. It is one of the largest HS and should offer at least basic programs like choir and a school paper.

Westfield used to be considered superior to Chantilly. Administration issues?

The admin at Westfield is the worst.

Administration makes a big difference. I know nothing about it at Westfield.

He mishandled multiple crises last year. He's not good.

What happened last year? This year has been uneventful

They had three lockdowns in two weeks this fall including a disturbed man outside with a rifle and a swatting and the parents were given no details

Last year:
The student who was murdered, terrible tragic situation handled absolutely terribly by the principal and fcps

The fire drill that was a real fire where the 2800 kids were trapped in the stadium all day long with no water and their cells and belongings were in their classrooms-parents were not notified, students were not allowed to leave, admin was not even there.