IB Programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

AP Research, the second course in the AP Capstone™ experience, allows students to deeply explore an academic topic, problem, issue, or idea of individual interest.
Students design, plan, and implement a yearlong investigation to address a research question. Through this inquiry, they further the skills they acquired in the AP Seminar course by learning research methodology, employing ethical research practices, and accessing, analyzing, and synthesizing information. Students reflect on their skill development, document their processes, and curate the artifacts of their scholarly work through a process and reflection portfolio.
The course culminates in an academic paper of 4,000–5,000 words (accompanied by a performance, exhibit, or product where applicable) and a presentation with an oral defense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

They are similar, IB Math AA HL is comparable to AP calculus BC, but the IB class takes two years, while the AP only one and arguably goes in more depth.

It varies from course to course, but typically AP gets more credit. For the example above at UMD, IB math gets credit for Math 140 (Calculus 1) and Stat 100, while AP Calculus BC gets credit for Math 140 and 141 (Calculus 1 and Calculus 2).

"AP only one and arguably goes in more depth." -- no, it doesn't. AP is breadth, not depth. IB is depth.

I have kids who went through both.

Yes it does, look at the syllabus for both. IB math HL has 55 hours of calculus over two years, AP has 180 hours over one year.

AP Calculus BC specific topics like series and parametric functions are barely touched upon or missing completely. The rest are treated very superficially because there’s no time to go in depth. The remainder of the IB curriculum is statistics and a review of high school math (algebra, geometry and trigonometry).

That’s why AP usually gets credit for the second semester of calculus, but IB almost never does. At least for calculus, IB doesn’t go neither in depth nor in breadth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

They are similar, IB Math AA HL is comparable to AP calculus BC, but the IB class takes two years, while the AP only one and arguably goes in more depth.

It varies from course to course, but typically AP gets more credit. For the example above at UMD, IB math gets credit for Math 140 (Calculus 1) and Stat 100, while AP Calculus BC gets credit for Math 140 and 141 (Calculus 1 and Calculus 2).

"AP only one and arguably goes in more depth." -- no, it doesn't. AP is breadth, not depth. IB is depth.

I have kids who went through both.

Yes it does, look at the syllabus for both. IB math HL has 55 hours of calculus over two years, AP has 180 hours over one year.

AP Calculus BC specific topics like series and parametric functions are barely touched upon or missing completely. The rest are treated very superficially because there’s no time to go in depth. The remainder of the IB curriculum is statistics and a review of high school math (algebra, geometry and trigonometry).

That’s why AP usually gets credit for the second semester of calculus, but IB almost never does. At least for calculus, IB doesn’t go neither in depth nor in breadth.

Yes, which is why the RMIB students who take IB math HL also take AP BC Calc and MVC, and take the AP Calc and UMD MVC exams in HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

They are similar, IB Math AA HL is comparable to AP calculus BC, but the IB class takes two years, while the AP only one and arguably goes in more depth.

It varies from course to course, but typically AP gets more credit. For the example above at UMD, IB math gets credit for Math 140 (Calculus 1) and Stat 100, while AP Calculus BC gets credit for Math 140 and 141 (Calculus 1 and Calculus 2).

"AP only one and arguably goes in more depth." -- no, it doesn't. AP is breadth, not depth. IB is depth.

I have kids who went through both.

Yes it does, look at the syllabus for both. IB math HL has 55 hours of calculus over two years, AP has 180 hours over one year.

AP Calculus BC specific topics like series and parametric functions are barely touched upon or missing completely. The rest are treated very superficially because there’s no time to go in depth. The remainder of the IB curriculum is statistics and a review of high school math (algebra, geometry and trigonometry).

That’s why AP usually gets credit for the second semester of calculus, but IB almost never does. At least for calculus, IB doesn’t go neither in depth nor in breadth.

Yes, which is why the RMIB students who take IB math HL also take AP BC Calc and MVC, and take the AP Calc and UMD MVC exams in HS.

This supports what the other poster was saying, if you take HL class you also need to take the AP counterpart or at least the AP exam to be competitive. A lot of wasted effort when you could go the AP route directly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

Very good points, although I’m not sure IBD is that big of an advantage for the top UK universities. For example at Oxford University international qualification is IBD with a score of at least 38 or four AP’s with a score of 5.

It just seems that even for UK colleges AP is the easier and lower risk route.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

Very good points, although I’m not sure IBD is that big of an advantage for the top UK universities. For example at Oxford University international qualification is IBD with a score of at least 38 or four AP’s with a score of 5.

It just seems that even for UK colleges AP is the easier and lower risk route.

Adding to the previous post.

Cambridge University international qualification for IB is three HL classes with 776 it 777 scores or five AP’s with a score of 5.

St Andrew in Scotland, IBD with a score of at least 36 or three AP’s with a score of 4+.

Even for international universities, I don’t see a huge benefit going the IBD route, it’s likely easier to meet the qualifications with AP coursework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

You need to read more carefully. MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities and social science classes for IB HL and AP courses passed with maximum scores and they specifically include the AP Capstone courses. Not super important but IB Diploma work like extended essays doesn’t get any credit even when it’s fairly close to the AP content.

Most students use unrestricted credit to get out of general requirements, you still take a full load, but some people would rather take a stem class at MIT and use the credit to fulfill other degree requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

Very good points, although I’m not sure IBD is that big of an advantage for the top UK universities. For example at Oxford University international qualification is IBD with a score of at least 38 or four AP’s with a score of 5.

It just seems that even for UK colleges AP is the easier and lower risk route.

Adding to the previous post.

Cambridge University international qualification for IB is three HL classes with 776 it 777 scores or five AP’s with a score of 5.

St Andrew in Scotland, IBD with a score of at least 36 or three AP’s with a score of 4+.

Even for international universities, I don’t see a huge benefit going the IBD route, it’s likely easier to meet the qualifications with AP coursework.

Not buying it. Nobody's getting into St. Andrews with 3 APs and a score of 4+. We know kids who were rejected there with 5-6 AP exam scores, almost all 5s. We've been poking around UK university web sites for weeks. What we've found that far more of the top tier institutions in the UK more publish IBD points total and subject score requirements than they do for AP. Fact is, IBD is really catching on in the UK. 20 years, around 2% of secondary schools offered it Across the Pond, now 10% do. Similar situation in Canada. We've been finding much more info about IBD requirements on Canadian univ web sties than AP info. It's clear that IBD is undeniably helpful if you're looking at college abroad.

The feature I like best about IBD is that, because the kids need to work within a tough set curriculum, there's a strong push for students who aren't necessarily self-starters. Kids get solid peer support from fellow travelers taking most of the same classes. I also see value in how there's no way out - you gut it out on science, math, individuals and societies/social students, advanced foreign language, English with heavy writing and an arts subject (or two sciences), the extended essay/mini thesis, the Theory of Knowledge class and the CAS volunteer work. My bright but somewhat lazy kids would have ducked out of serious AP rigor. I've gone so far as to tell them that they need to earn IBD points totals in the 30s of we're not paying for college (knowing that they can make the grade without difficulty if they apply themselves, like I did for IBD in the early 90s).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

Very good points, although I’m not sure IBD is that big of an advantage for the top UK universities. For example at Oxford University international qualification is IBD with a score of at least 38 or four AP’s with a score of 5.

It just seems that even for UK colleges AP is the easier and lower risk route.

Adding to the previous post.

Cambridge University international qualification for IB is three HL classes with 776 it 777 scores or five AP’s with a score of 5.

St Andrew in Scotland, IBD with a score of at least 36 or three AP’s with a score of 4+.

Even for international universities, I don’t see a huge benefit going the IBD route, it’s likely easier to meet the qualifications with AP coursework.

Not buying it. Nobody's getting into St. Andrews with 3 APs and a score of 4+. We know kids who were rejected there with 5-6 AP exam scores, almost all 5s. We've been poking around UK university web sites for weeks. What we've found that far more of the top tier institutions in the UK more publish IBD points total and subject score requirements than they do for AP. Fact is, IBD is really catching on in the UK. 20 years, around 2% of secondary schools offered it Across the Pond, now 10% do. Similar situation in Canada. We've been finding much more info about IBD requirements on Canadian univ web sties than AP info. It's clear that IBD is undeniably helpful if you're looking at college abroad.

The feature I like best about IBD is that, because the kids need to work within a tough set curriculum, there's a strong push for students who aren't necessarily self-starters. Kids get solid peer support from fellow travelers taking most of the same classes. I also see value in how there's no way out - you gut it out on science, math, individuals and societies/social students, advanced foreign language, English with heavy writing and an arts subject (or two sciences), the extended essay/mini thesis, the Theory of Knowledge class and the CAS volunteer work. My bright but somewhat lazy kids would have ducked out of serious AP rigor. I've gone so far as to tell them that they need to earn IBD points totals in the 30s of we're not paying for college (knowing that they can make the grade without difficulty if they apply themselves, like I did for IBD in the early 90s).

Maybe it’s more convincing directly from the horse’s mouth.
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/subjects/entry/usa/

That’s not the guaranteed admission stats, which don’t exist, these are the qualification stats to be considered for admission. I’m sure 36 in IB diploma isn’t a shoe in either.

The peer group argument is separate and of course you are in the best position to know what’s best for your child.

The assertion is that there’s not a huge benefit in UK Universities admissions coming from an IB compared to AP. They seem to happily consider AP candidates. Some posters claimed that for international applications it’s IB or bust, when that’s simply not the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

You need to read more carefully. MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities and social science classes for IB HL and AP courses passed with maximum scores and they specifically include the AP Capstone courses. Not super important but IB Diploma work like extended essays doesn’t get any credit even when it’s fairly close to the AP content.

Most students use unrestricted credit to get out of general requirements, you still take a full load, but some people would rather take a stem class at MIT and use the credit to fulfill other degree requirements.

So your argument literally was just comparing the extended essay to the AP class that was created to mimic the extended essay? That is dumb, not least because extended essay is barely considered a class for IB purposes (maybe it’s a half credit class?). Not sure what “general requirements” you get out of either because AP doesn’t count for the hass distribution requirements.