IB Programs

[Anonymous]

I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The IB program at Einstein was a disaster for my kid. His English and History classes leading up to it didn't have hardly any writing, so he was not prepared for the level of writing required by the IB classes. And his college did not give him any credit for his IB scores (5 to 7). I wish we had gone all AP.

Yeah, not being able to offer specific “pre-IB” classes to freshmen and sophomores anymore has really hampered their ability to prepare kids for the work required for IB—now they have to do it on the fly in 11th and 12.

My Einstein IB student says you can really tell which kids were in the Eastern magnet program, because they’ve at least been exposed to that kind of extensive academic research and writing, and deep analysis. They’re less lost on the research side of things, and more prepared to discuss in class and defend their arguments. They may not remember everything from MS, but it generally comes back when they need it.

Yes. This is why RMIB is a much better program. Magnet kids start taking magnet level English classes in 9th grade. That class is a shock to the system for a lot of these high performing kids. Expectations are high, and many get Cs on their first paper. They do eventually meet expectations, and become strong writers. But, wow, that first class. I think it was the first time my DC got a C on their writing assignment after coasting through MS. They got straight As though, all throughout.

My DC is more of a STEM person so RMIB really helped improve their writing.

I really wish there was a way non-magnet IB schools could offer those pre-IB courses. I don't know why MCPS won't allow them any more, but if it's just a problem with the IB name, call them something different. But you can’t throw kids to the wolves and expect them to thrive.

My Einstein kid had been in magnet programs in ES and MS, and had no interest in either RMIB or Kennedy, but still wanted a rigorous and challenging HS curriculum. IB was a perfect fit for their interests and strengths, but without the preparation they had at Eastern, it would have been much more stressful and overwhelming. The extended essay is really just a more structured version of the middle school IDRIP, with more leeway to choose your topic.

Theirs was the last class to have a Pre-IB section of Honors English 9, and they felt like it really did make a difference in getting those non-MS-magnet freshmen up to speed on literary analysis, critical frameworks, etc. But it seemed like there was still a big gap on the research and writing side of things, because the even the standard MCPS “honors” curriculum doesn't allow for much of either.

What is the middle school IDRIP? TIA!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB teacher here—this is strictly anecdotal evidence, but every year I am surprised with the college acceptances of many of my students who have mediocre grades in their IB courses and average to slightly above average standardized test scores. Of course, other factors are at play, and many of these students have extensive resumes, but so do many of the other people applying to top tier schools.

I also hear from former students that they felt they were way more prepared for college than their peers who didn’t take IB, and that the workload seemed extremely easy in comparison. I can’t speak to feedback of AP students; perhaps they also feel the same way.

I can confidently say that the removal of “pre-IB” courses and widespread implementation of “honors for all” are two of the worst decisions MCPS could have made for our advanced programs.

The problem with these anecdotes is that they are narrated from a narrow point of view with insufficient and incomplete information. Three post later the RMIB parent will disclose that the IB poster child also took AP Calculus BC and multivariable. Is the success of the student due to the IB program or the fact that RMIB is a magnet that attracts well prepared students and has a broad course offering that goes way beyond the typical IB program.

IB programs only have a less than stellar track record.

I don’t teach at RM, nor are many of my students those who were attracted to a magnet. Where I teach, there is open access to IB courses and many of the students actually are not well prepared, and don’t do all that well in the classes. However, they are still accepted to fairly impressive colleges compared to their stats, IMO. I also stated that there are likely other factors too. I feel your response to my anecdotes shows a lack of understanding of what I was saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

They are similar, IB Math AA HL is comparable to AP calculus BC, but the IB class takes two years, while the AP only one and arguably goes in more depth.

It varies from course to course, but typically AP gets more credit. For the example above at UMD, IB math gets credit for Math 140 (Calculus 1) and Stat 100, while AP Calculus BC gets credit for Math 140 and 141 (Calculus 1 and Calculus 2).

[Anonymous]

I'm a middle school parent trying to understand this better. From what I am reading:
- AP tends to be broader, more like a survey course
- IB tends to be narrower, more like a seminar
- There is generally more "analytical" writing in IB, and it sounds like the format is similar across classes and may not align with what is expected in some college classes -- e.g., the more straightforward writing you might do in a science class
- Some AP and IB classes have the exact same content, with only the assessments differenting. In some MCPS, the classes are combined (it sounds like most commonly in languages).
- IB is generally better for humanities/writing, AP for hard sciences.
- IB classes take up more of a student's schedule. Some that would be 1 year in AP take 2 years in IB - like world history). And those who do the DP have to take other courses that don't come with college credit - like theory of knowledge (that I'm still confused about - what does this cover?). Because of this, students will get fewer college credits than the same "rigor" of courseload with AP.
- To get around this, some IB students also self-study for the AP exams and can get college credit if they do well enough.

Am I missing anything? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

McGill in Montreal gives a full year’s worth of credits for most IB diploma recipients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The IB program at Einstein was a disaster for my kid. His English and History classes leading up to it didn't have hardly any writing, so he was not prepared for the level of writing required by the IB classes. And his college did not give him any credit for his IB scores (5 to 7). I wish we had gone all AP.

Yeah, not being able to offer specific “pre-IB” classes to freshmen and sophomores anymore has really hampered their ability to prepare kids for the work required for IB—now they have to do it on the fly in 11th and 12.

My Einstein IB student says you can really tell which kids were in the Eastern magnet program, because they’ve at least been exposed to that kind of extensive academic research and writing, and deep analysis. They’re less lost on the research side of things, and more prepared to discuss in class and defend their arguments. They may not remember everything from MS, but it generally comes back when they need it.

Yes. This is why RMIB is a much better program. Magnet kids start taking magnet level English classes in 9th grade. That class is a shock to the system for a lot of these high performing kids. Expectations are high, and many get Cs on their first paper. They do eventually meet expectations, and become strong writers. But, wow, that first class. I think it was the first time my DC got a C on their writing assignment after coasting through MS. They got straight As though, all throughout.

My DC is more of a STEM person so RMIB really helped improve their writing.

I really wish there was a way non-magnet IB schools could offer those pre-IB courses. I don't know why MCPS won't allow them any more, but if it's just a problem with the IB name, call them something different. But you can’t throw kids to the wolves and expect them to thrive.

My Einstein kid had been in magnet programs in ES and MS, and had no interest in either RMIB or Kennedy, but still wanted a rigorous and challenging HS curriculum. IB was a perfect fit for their interests and strengths, but without the preparation they had at Eastern, it would have been much more stressful and overwhelming. The extended essay is really just a more structured version of the middle school IDRIP, with more leeway to choose your topic.

Theirs was the last class to have a Pre-IB section of Honors English 9, and they felt like it really did make a difference in getting those non-MS-magnet freshmen up to speed on literary analysis, critical frameworks, etc. But it seemed like there was still a big gap on the research and writing side of things, because the even the standard MCPS “honors” curriculum doesn't allow for much of either.

What is the middle school IDRIP? TIA!

Humanities magnet kids (mine was at Eastern) spend the better part of a year learning how to research, write, and accept feedback to re-write a long research paper. It may be called something else nowadays?

They went to the library at UMD to do research, created and organized extensive note cards, outlines, and drafts, and learned how to properly cite sources and write in MLA style.

[Anonymous]

From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

What is the basis for your wild assertions here?

If we are comparing anecdata I can tell you that my kid had no problems getting into a highly selective college from the IB diploma program. They had a few APs but generally didn’t worry about taking them for IB classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know of anyone who thinks IB is half as rigorous as AP. Most people think they are the similar or if anything that IB is more rigorous.

They are similar, IB Math AA HL is comparable to AP calculus BC, but the IB class takes two years, while the AP only one and arguably goes in more depth.

It varies from course to course, but typically AP gets more credit. For the example above at UMD, IB math gets credit for Math 140 (Calculus 1) and Stat 100, while AP Calculus BC gets credit for Math 140 and 141 (Calculus 1 and Calculus 2).

"AP only one and arguably goes in more depth." -- no, it doesn't. AP is breadth, not depth. IB is depth.

I have kids who went through both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a middle school parent trying to understand this better. From what I am reading:
- AP tends to be broader, more like a survey course
- IB tends to be narrower, more like a seminar
- There is generally more "analytical" writing in IB, and it sounds like the format is similar across classes and may not align with what is expected in some college classes -- e.g., the more straightforward writing you might do in a science class
- Some AP and IB classes have the exact same content, with only the assessments differenting. In some MCPS, the classes are combined (it sounds like most commonly in languages).
- IB is generally better for humanities/writing, AP for hard sciences.
- IB classes take up more of a student's schedule. Some that would be 1 year in AP take 2 years in IB - like world history). And those who do the DP have to take other courses that don't come with college credit - like theory of knowledge (that I'm still confused about - what does this cover?). Because of this, students will get fewer college credits than the same "rigor" of courseload with AP.
- To get around this, some IB students also self-study for the AP exams and can get college credit if they do well enough.

Am I missing anything? Thanks.

Sums it up. 👍

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

What is the basis for your wild assertions here?

If we are comparing anecdata I can tell you that my kid had no problems getting into a highly selective college from the IB diploma program. They had a few APs but generally didn’t worry about taking them for IB classes.

Not so wild. I worked as an admissions officer at two highly competitive colleges, both admitting in the single digits. From what I've seen in admissions over the years, when IBD applicants apply by submitting "predicted" IB exam scores vs. actual standardized test subject scores they get a leg up in admissions if they aren't hooked applicants (legacies, recruited athletes) and perhaps first gen applicants. The problem doesn't seem to rear its ugly head with applications to second and third-tier colleges admitting, those more than 25% of applicants. The inconvenient truth is that many successful UMC IBD applicants to the most highly competitive US colleges are in fact doubling up on AP exams. It's not uncommon for college counselors at private IB World Schools to encourage applicants to top US colleges to double up on AP exams. I had my own children in MCPS do this--they took several AP exams on top of the six IBD subject exams--and both were admitted to Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

What is the basis for your wild assertions here?

If we are comparing anecdata I can tell you that my kid had no problems getting into a highly selective college from the IB diploma program. They had a few APs but generally didn’t worry about taking them for IB classes.

Not so wild. I worked as an admissions officer at two highly competitive colleges, both admitting in the single digits. From what I've seen in admissions over the years, when IBD applicants apply by submitting "predicted" IB exam scores vs. actual standardized test subject scores they get a leg up in admissions if they aren't hooked applicants (legacies, recruited athletes) and perhaps first gen applicants. The problem doesn't seem to rear its ugly head with applications to second and third-tier colleges admitting, those more than 25% of applicants. The inconvenient truth is that many successful UMC IBD applicants to the most highly competitive US colleges are in fact doubling up on AP exams. It's not uncommon for college counselors at private IB World Schools to encourage applicants to top US colleges to double up on AP exams. I had my own children in MCPS do this--they took several AP exams on top of the six IBD subject exams--and both were admitted to Ivies.

Did you put weight on students predicting their own scores?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From where I sit, the major problem with IB sequencing is that IB applicants aren't going to come out of it with enough standardized test subject scores to wow the most highly competitive colleges when they apply, unless, that is, they double up on some AP exams. That's why I had my IBD kid take the corresponding AP exams for foreign language and sciences. The only IB exams IBD students can take before applying to college, unless they apply from a gap year, are two Standard Level exams at the end of junior year. The sequencing of the exams works well in Europe--where students get "conditional" offers to universities predicated on their achieving certain exam results the summer after high school--but not in the US. This is something to keep in mind if you're considering IBD for your student. In our experience, MoCo guidance counselors, admins and teachers tend to downplay this grave problem (claiming that subject scores aren't necessary, that IBD exam "predicted scores" are sufficient, total BS). We're going with IBD mainly because we have family in the UK, where top colleges are much cheaper than in this country, in the hopes that our kids will attend university in London or Scotland.

What is the basis for your wild assertions here?

If we are comparing anecdata I can tell you that my kid had no problems getting into a highly selective college from the IB diploma program. They had a few APs but generally didn’t worry about taking them for IB classes.

How selective? which APs?

The error bars are huge on prediction on terms like "no problems" (no one has "problems" getting into college unless they are negotiating a hook like sports or wealth); they apply and then get a yes or no),
"highly selective", and "a few", and the unmentioned other factors like HS reputation, class rank, ECs.