TJHSST Director of Admissions leaves FCPS after 25 years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

+1,000,000

Everything that is happening now is precisely because of people like above, 100% DEI, 100% of the time, in every possible situation.

1000%

No, it’s a bunch of greedy MFers, primarily rich white men, trying to hoard resources.

In this thread context, I believe is rich Asian (mainly south).

Most South Asian people I know voted for Harris, but I’m sure there were some who bought into the rich white man entitlement mentality.

They went for Youngkin back in 2021, though. May have had a hand in tipping that election.

Not the people I know. They were fervently anti-Youngkin. They weren't fooled by his promises around nonexistent issues.

Most (not all) the Asians I know, South Asian or otherwise, voted for Youngkin. The TJ things was a factor.

This was my experience as well. And for all of his promises, Youngkin hasn’t done one single solitary damn thing for them on TJ. Not one.

Maybe it’s time to make some new headlines about how Youngkin is going against Trump and supports DEI admissions in his governor’s schools. He hasn’t done anything to change these policies. They are literally named Governor’s Schools…..

Maybe because he realizes that it’s a race blind process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

+1,000,000

Everything that is happening now is precisely because of people like above, 100% DEI, 100% of the time, in every possible situation.

1000%

No, it’s a bunch of greedy MFers, primarily rich white men, trying to hoard resources.

In this thread context, I believe is rich Asian (mainly south).

Most South Asian people I know voted for Harris, but I’m sure there were some who bought into the rich white man entitlement mentality.

They went for Youngkin back in 2021, though. May have had a hand in tipping that election.

Not the people I know. They were fervently anti-Youngkin. They weren't fooled by his promises around nonexistent issues.

Most (not all) the Asians I know, South Asian or otherwise, voted for Youngkin. The TJ things was a factor.

This was my experience as well. And for all of his promises, Youngkin hasn’t done one single solitary damn thing for them on TJ. Not one.

And you are the judge of this, because you know what Asians want better than they do, Amirite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

+1,000,000

Everything that is happening now is precisely because of people like above, 100% DEI, 100% of the time, in every possible situation.

1000%

No, it’s a bunch of greedy MFers, primarily rich white men, trying to hoard resources.

In this thread context, I believe is rich Asian (mainly south).

Most South Asian people I know voted for Harris, but I’m sure there were some who bought into the rich white man entitlement mentality.

They went for Youngkin back in 2021, though. May have had a hand in tipping that election.

Not the people I know. They were fervently anti-Youngkin. They weren't fooled by his promises around nonexistent issues.

Most (not all) the Asians I know, South Asian or otherwise, voted for Youngkin. The TJ things was a factor.

This was my experience as well. And for all of his promises, Youngkin hasn’t done one single solitary damn thing for them on TJ. Not one.

Maybe it’s time to make some new headlines about how Youngkin is going against Trump and supports DEI admissions in his governor’s schools. He hasn’t done anything to change these policies. They are literally named Governor’s Schools…..

Maybe because he realizes that it’s a race blind process.

Selection based on race cant last forvever

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

What's more correct is that we have a political environment right now where if you're not solidly in one of two camps:

1) All DEI all the time! or
2) All efforts to support marginalized populations are garbage!

... then you don't have a home. If you want to belong to ANYTHING, you have to pick one or the other. There's no room for a commonsense middle path anymore.

The real answer in this situation is that defining acceptance to TJ as an "outcome" is problematic. Framing it as a contest or a prize to be won rather than as an opportunity to be properly distributed for maximum effect is awful.

TJ's job is to serve the STEM community writ large, not to serve parents who are trying to maximize their child's life outcomes. So a proper admissions policy for such a school would necessarily balance the need to identify top talent with the need to include populations that are underrepresented in STEM fields so as to grow the base of talent for the future and to address the needs of communities that are being harmed by the profit motive.

The new admissions process took a step in a positive direction by including students from those undervalued communities, but did so partly at the expense of identifying top talent (this is at once both inarguable AND overblown - it's a problem but by no means a crisis).

The next step will be to figure out a way to more concretely identify a strong group of talent from all of those communities - which will probably require different methods and priorities of evaluation for each of those groups. But one thing that will not succeed at all is to evaluate all of them along the same metric out of a misplaced loyalty to "objectivity". That way lies madness and a return to the dark years of the mid-2010s where TJ produced high rankings (thanks to a retrograde system that relied on exam performance) - but very, very little else thanks to a staggering homogeneity of the student population.

Why is there a "need" to include underrepresented populations? Why can't we stop at identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color?

Academics undervalued communities that undervalue academics.

We should absolutely be identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color. But you can't possibly believe that we were doing that in the before times unless you think it was correct to admit a larger number of Asian students in the Class of 2024 than they'd admitted Black students in TJ's entire history in total to that point.

I am not here to argue that STEM talent is evenly distributed - it's not because the Asian immigrants who came to this area did so in order to leverage their STEM skills in America's second most significant tech market (after Silicon Valley). But the distribution is not so overwhelming as to produce that outcome, and to believe it is is to have a deeply disturbing view of Black people in this country.

The overwhelming majority of applications are from Asian students, of course they will have a greater number of students when other races do not apply at anywhere near the same rates. How is it deeply disturbing to any other race to realize that if one race applies at a rate significantly higher than any other race, that particular race (Asian) would also have significantly more students accepted???

Also, when 74% of the applicants are Asian American, how is it that their admitted percent is disproportionately restricted to 57% of the class?

DP.

I don't think your numbers are correct. The current admissions process sort of takes a cross section of the applicant pool so the percentage of asian applicants is pretty close to the percentage of asian admits.

DP Sockpuppet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

What's more correct is that we have a political environment right now where if you're not solidly in one of two camps:

1) All DEI all the time! or
2) All efforts to support marginalized populations are garbage!

... then you don't have a home. If you want to belong to ANYTHING, you have to pick one or the other. There's no room for a commonsense middle path anymore.

The real answer in this situation is that defining acceptance to TJ as an "outcome" is problematic. Framing it as a contest or a prize to be won rather than as an opportunity to be properly distributed for maximum effect is awful.

TJ's job is to serve the STEM community writ large, not to serve parents who are trying to maximize their child's life outcomes. So a proper admissions policy for such a school would necessarily balance the need to identify top talent with the need to include populations that are underrepresented in STEM fields so as to grow the base of talent for the future and to address the needs of communities that are being harmed by the profit motive.

The new admissions process took a step in a positive direction by including students from those undervalued communities, but did so partly at the expense of identifying top talent (this is at once both inarguable AND overblown - it's a problem but by no means a crisis).

The next step will be to figure out a way to more concretely identify a strong group of talent from all of those communities - which will probably require different methods and priorities of evaluation for each of those groups. But one thing that will not succeed at all is to evaluate all of them along the same metric out of a misplaced loyalty to "objectivity". That way lies madness and a return to the dark years of the mid-2010s where TJ produced high rankings (thanks to a retrograde system that relied on exam performance) - but very, very little else thanks to a staggering homogeneity of the student population.

Why is there a "need" to include underrepresented populations? Why can't we stop at identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color?

Academics undervalued communities that undervalue academics.

We should absolutely be identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color. But you can't possibly believe that we were doing that in the before times unless you think it was correct to admit a larger number of Asian students in the Class of 2024 than they'd admitted Black students in TJ's entire history in total to that point.

I am not here to argue that STEM talent is evenly distributed - it's not because the Asian immigrants who came to this area did so in order to leverage their STEM skills in America's second most significant tech market (after Silicon Valley). But the distribution is not so overwhelming as to produce that outcome, and to believe it is is to have a deeply disturbing view of Black people in this country.

The overwhelming majority of applications are from Asian students, of course they will have a greater number of students when other races do not apply at anywhere near the same rates. How is it deeply disturbing to any other race to realize that if one race applies at a rate significantly higher than any other race, that particular race (Asian) would also have significantly more students accepted???

Also, when 74% of the applicants are Asian American, how is it that their admitted percent is disproportionately restricted to 57% of the class?

DP.

I don't think your numbers are correct. The current admissions process sort of takes a cross section of the applicant pool so the percentage of asian applicants is pretty close to the percentage of asian admits.

DP Sockpuppet

Are you unwell? NP, PP, DP, OP are used by a lot of people in forums. Most people using DP really just are a different poster and not someone sockpuppeting. If you're that concerned, you can always ask Jeff. It's much more rational than accusing every DP or NP of being a sockpuppet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

+1,000,000

Everything that is happening now is precisely because of people like above, 100% DEI, 100% of the time, in every possible situation.

1000%

No, it’s a bunch of greedy MFers, primarily rich white men, trying to hoard resources.

In this thread context, I believe is rich Asian (mainly south).

Most South Asian people I know voted for Harris, but I’m sure there were some who bought into the rich white man entitlement mentality.

They went for Youngkin back in 2021, though. May have had a hand in tipping that election.

It was hard to see the TJ changes as anything other than a signal from FCPS that they thought there were too many Indians at TJ. Even if you have no interest in TJ, it leave a bag taste in your mouth if you're Indian.

Why?

Why couldn’t it have been a signal that it was damn near impossible to get into TJ if you weren’t at least from a middle-class family?

Because all the debate and hearings and memos and communication was about race.
The email from bonitatibus was about race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

What's more correct is that we have a political environment right now where if you're not solidly in one of two camps:

1) All DEI all the time! or
2) All efforts to support marginalized populations are garbage!

... then you don't have a home. If you want to belong to ANYTHING, you have to pick one or the other. There's no room for a commonsense middle path anymore.

The real answer in this situation is that defining acceptance to TJ as an "outcome" is problematic. Framing it as a contest or a prize to be won rather than as an opportunity to be properly distributed for maximum effect is awful.

TJ's job is to serve the STEM community writ large, not to serve parents who are trying to maximize their child's life outcomes. So a proper admissions policy for such a school would necessarily balance the need to identify top talent with the need to include populations that are underrepresented in STEM fields so as to grow the base of talent for the future and to address the needs of communities that are being harmed by the profit motive.

The new admissions process took a step in a positive direction by including students from those undervalued communities, but did so partly at the expense of identifying top talent (this is at once both inarguable AND overblown - it's a problem but by no means a crisis).

The next step will be to figure out a way to more concretely identify a strong group of talent from all of those communities - which will probably require different methods and priorities of evaluation for each of those groups. But one thing that will not succeed at all is to evaluate all of them along the same metric out of a misplaced loyalty to "objectivity". That way lies madness and a return to the dark years of the mid-2010s where TJ produced high rankings (thanks to a retrograde system that relied on exam performance) - but very, very little else thanks to a staggering homogeneity of the student population.

Why is there a "need" to include underrepresented populations? Why can't we stop at identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color?

Academics undervalued communities that undervalue academics.

We should absolutely be identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color. But you can't possibly believe that we were doing that in the before times unless you think it was correct to admit a larger number of Asian students in the Class of 2024 than they'd admitted Black students in TJ's entire history in total to that point.

I am not here to argue that STEM talent is evenly distributed - it's not because the Asian immigrants who came to this area did so in order to leverage their STEM skills in America's second most significant tech market (after Silicon Valley). But the distribution is not so overwhelming as to produce that outcome, and to believe it is is to have a deeply disturbing view of Black people in this country.

Truth can sometimes be disturbing.

At the far right end tail of the curve, black students are rare.

https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf

9% of asians get a 1500+ on the sat
<1% of blacks get a score of 1500+ on the SAT

23% of asians get a 1400+ on the SAT
1% of blacks get a 1400+ on the SAT

40% of asians get a 1300+ on the SAT
3% of blacks get a 1300+ on the SAT

56% of asians get a 1200+ on the SAT
8% of blacks get a 1200+ on the SAT

This is not close.

Do you have the ability to make a coherent argument that doesn’t include exam scores?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

What's more correct is that we have a political environment right now where if you're not solidly in one of two camps:

1) All DEI all the time! or
2) All efforts to support marginalized populations are garbage!

... then you don't have a home. If you want to belong to ANYTHING, you have to pick one or the other. There's no room for a commonsense middle path anymore.

The real answer in this situation is that defining acceptance to TJ as an "outcome" is problematic. Framing it as a contest or a prize to be won rather than as an opportunity to be properly distributed for maximum effect is awful.

TJ's job is to serve the STEM community writ large, not to serve parents who are trying to maximize their child's life outcomes. So a proper admissions policy for such a school would necessarily balance the need to identify top talent with the need to include populations that are underrepresented in STEM fields so as to grow the base of talent for the future and to address the needs of communities that are being harmed by the profit motive.

The new admissions process took a step in a positive direction by including students from those undervalued communities, but did so partly at the expense of identifying top talent (this is at once both inarguable AND overblown - it's a problem but by no means a crisis).

The next step will be to figure out a way to more concretely identify a strong group of talent from all of those communities - which will probably require different methods and priorities of evaluation for each of those groups. But one thing that will not succeed at all is to evaluate all of them along the same metric out of a misplaced loyalty to "objectivity". That way lies madness and a return to the dark years of the mid-2010s where TJ produced high rankings (thanks to a retrograde system that relied on exam performance) - but very, very little else thanks to a staggering homogeneity of the student population.

Why is there a "need" to include underrepresented populations? Why can't we stop at identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color?

Academics undervalued communities that undervalue academics.

We should absolutely be identifying the top talent regardless of their skin color. But you can't possibly believe that we were doing that in the before times unless you think it was correct to admit a larger number of Asian students in the Class of 2024 than they'd admitted Black students in TJ's entire history in total to that point.

I am not here to argue that STEM talent is evenly distributed - it's not because the Asian immigrants who came to this area did so in order to leverage their STEM skills in America's second most significant tech market (after Silicon Valley). But the distribution is not so overwhelming as to produce that outcome, and to believe it is is to have a deeply disturbing view of Black people in this country.

Truth can sometimes be disturbing.

At the far right end tail of the curve, black students are rare.

https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/sat-percentile-ranks-gender-race-ethnicity.pdf

9% of asians get a 1500+ on the sat
<1% of blacks get a score of 1500+ on the SAT

23% of asians get a 1400+ on the SAT
1% of blacks get a 1400+ on the SAT

40% of asians get a 1300+ on the SAT
3% of blacks get a 1300+ on the SAT

56% of asians get a 1200+ on the SAT
8% of blacks get a 1200+ on the SAT

This is not close.

Do you have the ability to make a coherent argument that doesn’t include exam scores?

I am responding to the accusation that my views about the lopsided nature of academic talent that exists in the asian community vs the black community is because I have deeply disturbing views.

I am providing some evidence to support my statement that the academic talent between these two groups is extremely lopsided.
The asian kids aren't born smarter, they become smarter.
Stop making excuses for black underachievement, you are not doing them any favors.

Unless you believe they are black children have already reached their potential and are simply incapable of doing as well as the children of mexican immigrants, why would you curse them with lower standards?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t think sound middle path at all, PP. you sound wholly in the camp of those who wanted to select certain people for TJ based on factors other than STEM interest and aptitude.

That is literally the definition of a middle path. It's balancing STEM interest and aptitude (which are critical!) and the essential need for STEM to be an aspirational field for students from all walks of life.

It is true that academic aptitude is not evenly balanced across demographics, but it is also true that no racial or socioeconomic demo has a monopoly on it. But when it comes to TJ admissions, there have been populations that had been almost entirely excluded prior to the updates to the process, and that needed to change.

I don't want to select people for TJ based on factors *other than* STEM interest and aptitude. I want to select them based on factors *in addition to* STEM interest and aptitude. And there's more work to be done to get there.

"Undervalued communities" is just a doushebag of bullsheet. Nobody can undervalue you except yourself. Don't blame others when you haven't worked hard enough.

Presuming that folks haven't worked hard enough just because they're poor, Black, or Hispanic isn't really a good look. It's also not a good look when the "work" they've had access to isn't narrowly tailored to success on a specific exam or in a specific admissions process.

You want to protect the advantages of groups that already have advantages. Just own up to that and be fine with it - it is a legitimate political position that I happen to disagree with.

When people start questioning DEI, you immediately think of Black and Hispanic. Do you see the problem with this kneejerk? You choose to stay in your pit and never get out. Or you see it as a privilege or entitlement that you don't want to lose.

Those are the communities that have been undervalued. Until that is no longer the case, it's good policy to create an atmosphere where everyone has a chance to compete and have input. Full stop.

They have the same opportunity to compete as anyone else. Full stop.

This is the poster who want everybody to believe that 1:1 tutor at $180 per hour rate in the comfort of fancy home, is the same with self study (while also babysitting 3 little sibling) from $20 prep books from amazon.

The idea was not to take a way the first, but, only hope to at least give a chance to the latter.

That’s a fair point, but the real solution is to provide early support rather than guaranteeing outcomes in high school, especially at a place like TJ. I’m even okay with tax-funded tutoring and mentoring at the elementary level, but forcing guaranteed outcomes through DEI at high schools or TJ is not the answer. And smearing hardworking middle-class parents for investing in their children's education is utter nonsense.

DP

1) That's a false choice for multiple reasons, first because no one is guaranteeing outcomes at all, and second because there's no reason for us to choose between providing additional support AND evaluating students' merit based on the context of their circumstances. We can and should be doing both.

2) No one is smearing hard-working middle class parents for investing in their children's education. What we're smearing about you is your insistence that admissions processes should be tailored to incentivize an imbalanced childhood. By all means, raise your kid however you want to and streamline their educational process to be STEM-focused for their own sake - just stop expecting that elite schools are going to reward you for doing so. And by the way, they shouldn't punish you for it either - and they're not.

DP

Life does not grade on a curve.

What you consider an imbalanced childhood is the typical childhood of 90% of the rest of the world outside of the USA.

No elite school is punishing any individual asian kid for studying too hard but they are punishing asian kids in general for being a member of a race that is disproportionately hardworking and academically successful. We live in a world where our country really can't afford to elevate mediocrity in an effort to equalize outcomes based or race. We have to become more merit based. There's a place for everyone but those places should not be allocated based on race in an effort to equalize racial outcomes.

There’s no sense in which Asian kids are being “punished”. They’re just not being rewarded to the same extent for their parents’ emphasis on testing.

It’s easy to confuse removal of an advantage with introduction of discrimination, but that doesn’t make you right.

Of course asian kids are being punished. They are being punished with discrimination for being too successful.

Almost everybody understands this now. Only the true believers deny that asians are discriminated against in this way

If you are one of the people that think asians are not being discriminated against then nothing will change your mind, so I will not try.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t think sound middle path at all, PP. you sound wholly in the camp of those who wanted to select certain people for TJ based on factors other than STEM interest and aptitude.

That is literally the definition of a middle path. It's balancing STEM interest and aptitude (which are critical!) and the essential need for STEM to be an aspirational field for students from all walks of life.

It is true that academic aptitude is not evenly balanced across demographics, but it is also true that no racial or socioeconomic demo has a monopoly on it. But when it comes to TJ admissions, there have been populations that had been almost entirely excluded prior to the updates to the process, and that needed to change.

I don't want to select people for TJ based on factors *other than* STEM interest and aptitude. I want to select them based on factors *in addition to* STEM interest and aptitude. And there's more work to be done to get there.

"Undervalued communities" is just a doushebag of bullsheet. Nobody can undervalue you except yourself. Don't blame others when you haven't worked hard enough.

Presuming that folks haven't worked hard enough just because they're poor, Black, or Hispanic isn't really a good look. It's also not a good look when the "work" they've had access to isn't narrowly tailored to success on a specific exam or in a specific admissions process.

You want to protect the advantages of groups that already have advantages. Just own up to that and be fine with it - it is a legitimate political position that I happen to disagree with.

When people start questioning DEI, you immediately think of Black and Hispanic. Do you see the problem with this kneejerk? You choose to stay in your pit and never get out. Or you see it as a privilege or entitlement that you don't want to lose.

Those are the communities that have been undervalued. Until that is no longer the case, it's good policy to create an atmosphere where everyone has a chance to compete and have input. Full stop.

They have the same opportunity to compete as anyone else. Full stop.

First of all, no, they really don't have the same opportunity to compete as anyone else. When the most successful prep company releases their list of admits three years in a row and literally every single name of the nearly 300 on those lists is of South Asian descent, you don't have equality of opportunity. When access to bespoke prep courses that are narrowly tailored to the TJ admissions process costs $5,000 and requires hundreds of hours of additional time, you don't have equality of opportunity. And when communities of parents build their child's entire elementary and middle school career on optimizing their applications, using tips and tricks cobbled together from their WhatsApp chats and Facebook groups, you don't have equality of opportunity.

Second of all, framing the admissions process as a competition or as a contest/prize to be won is problematic as well. TJ doesn't exist for the purpose of giving a small group of Northern Virginia parents something to brag about - it exists to serve and enhance the STEM community writ large. And you cannot tell me that STEM is better served by TJ admitting the 80th strongest kid at Carson, with the same relative profile as the kids ahead of them but just weaker, rather than the 2nd or 3rd strongest kid at Poe.

You think there is such a bigger delta between those two than there really is and it's just not the case.

I'm lilywhite and I'm in these Whatsapp chats and FB groups. Literally the only thing you need to do to join is to want and be able to join.

[Anonymous]

You are missing a key piece of the mindset of this immigrant community.

A friend family had their child in all the prep classes since early elementary school. They even took the TJ exam prep classes.

They had no intention of attending TJ as they went back to India.

Why spend thousands of dollars and years of effort on something that they have no plan of attending?

The thinking is that if the kids spend time learning all the material, it would be good for them, it would help them in academics, it would prepare them well for college, keeps the kids away from distractions (phones, drugs, etc.) and so on.

This attitude is quite common in the community. I strongly disagree with this approach and think this is harmful in other more subtle ways.

[Anonymous]

When you have something like this, these kids would tend to do better in exams and in classes. So they often end up at TJ. Nothing sinister actually.

[Anonymous]

Let me give you another example of a different community and their focus on math.

My child participated in a math competition on a team primarily consisting of Chinese students. We went to a different state to compete. The parents were so immersed and deeply involved in all facets of the event.

Many parents were chaperoning the HS kids. The parents made sure the kids were in their rooms by 10 PM. One parent made sure each of them had water bottles so that they would not have their sleep disturbed if they wake up thirsty. One parent scouted the breakfast area and secured spaces for the kids. Another parent timed how long it would take to reach the competition site. Another parent had extra pencils and erasers in a bag and carrying it all day, just in case anyone runs out.

I can go on, but the parents cared so much and put their hearts into it all throughout the competition.

You can argue this is all wrong, but is it any surprise that these kids do so well in math. Other people coming from different backgrounds would have a tough time competing with these kids. Do you blame these kids that they have an unfair advantage?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You don’t think sound middle path at all, PP. you sound wholly in the camp of those who wanted to select certain people for TJ based on factors other than STEM interest and aptitude.

That is literally the definition of a middle path. It's balancing STEM interest and aptitude (which are critical!) and the essential need for STEM to be an aspirational field for students from all walks of life.

It is true that academic aptitude is not evenly balanced across demographics, but it is also true that no racial or socioeconomic demo has a monopoly on it. But when it comes to TJ admissions, there have been populations that had been almost entirely excluded prior to the updates to the process, and that needed to change.

I don't want to select people for TJ based on factors *other than* STEM interest and aptitude. I want to select them based on factors *in addition to* STEM interest and aptitude. And there's more work to be done to get there.

"Undervalued communities" is just a doushebag of bullsheet. Nobody can undervalue you except yourself. Don't blame others when you haven't worked hard enough.

Presuming that folks haven't worked hard enough just because they're poor, Black, or Hispanic isn't really a good look. It's also not a good look when the "work" they've had access to isn't narrowly tailored to success on a specific exam or in a specific admissions process.

You want to protect the advantages of groups that already have advantages. Just own up to that and be fine with it - it is a legitimate political position that I happen to disagree with.

When people start questioning DEI, you immediately think of Black and Hispanic. Do you see the problem with this kneejerk? You choose to stay in your pit and never get out. Or you see it as a privilege or entitlement that you don't want to lose.

Those are the communities that have been undervalued. Until that is no longer the case, it's good policy to create an atmosphere where everyone has a chance to compete and have input. Full stop.

They have the same opportunity to compete as anyone else. Full stop.

This is the poster who want everybody to believe that 1:1 tutor at $180 per hour rate in the comfort of fancy home, is the same with self study (while also babysitting 3 little sibling) from $20 prep books from amazon.

The idea was not to take a way the first, but, only hope to at least give a chance to the latter.

That’s a fair point, but the real solution is to provide early support rather than guaranteeing outcomes in high school, especially at a place like TJ. I’m even okay with tax-funded tutoring and mentoring at the elementary level, but forcing guaranteed outcomes through DEI at high schools or TJ is not the answer. And smearing hardworking middle-class parents for investing in their children's education is utter nonsense.

DP

1) That's a false choice for multiple reasons, first because no one is guaranteeing outcomes at all, and second because there's no reason for us to choose between providing additional support AND evaluating students' merit based on the context of their circumstances. We can and should be doing both.

2) No one is smearing hard-working middle class parents for investing in their children's education. What we're smearing about you is your insistence that admissions processes should be tailored to incentivize an imbalanced childhood. By all means, raise your kid however you want to and streamline their educational process to be STEM-focused for their own sake - just stop expecting that elite schools are going to reward you for doing so. And by the way, they shouldn't punish you for it either - and they're not.

DP

Life does not grade on a curve.

What you consider an imbalanced childhood is the typical childhood of 90% of the rest of the world outside of the USA.

No elite school is punishing any individual asian kid for studying too hard but they are punishing asian kids in general for being a member of a race that is disproportionately hardworking and academically successful. We live in a world where our country really can't afford to elevate mediocrity in an effort to equalize outcomes based or race. We have to become more merit based. There's a place for everyone but those places should not be allocated based on race in an effort to equalize racial outcomes.

There’s no sense in which Asian kids are being “punished”. They’re just not being rewarded to the same extent for their parents’ emphasis on testing.

It’s easy to confuse removal of an advantage with introduction of discrimination, but that doesn’t make you right.

Of course asian kids are being punished. They are being punished with discrimination for being too successful.

Almost everybody understands this now. Only the true believers deny that asians are discriminated against in this way

If you are one of the people that think asians are not being discriminated against then nothing will change your mind, so I will not try.

If there were discrimination, you would expect Asians to get in at:

1) A significantly lower rate per applicant than other cohorts;

2) A significantly lower percentage than their total applicants.

Neither is true - in fact the reverse is true.

What has instead happened is that a piece of the application that gave a statistically significant advantage to Asian students - that being a requirement that applicants reach certain percentile thresholds (not absolute scores) on a battery of standardized exams to even be considered at the semifinal level - was removed. You're calling that discrimination because you think that the advantage that the exam gave to the Asian students was correct and appropriate, and there is an argument for that.

But you have no evidence that the current process in a vacuum actively discriminates against Asian students. It just doesn't discriminate in favor of them anymore.

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Anonymous wrote:Smart move.
He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall and is going where his talents for sifting through applications and selecting the best and brightest strictly based on academic merit and demonstrated talent will be utilized again.

Equity admissions is “Equality of outcome” and by definition it will devalue TJ as a top school…..by design. May take a few years to see in reality, but that’s the entire purpose of equity re-engineering of that school.

OH I know! TJ is now selecting the top students instead of the rigged process where parents could buy their way in. It's time to find a new scam.

People pushing DEI like you are the direct reason for the blowback we are seeing today.
Trump won because of people like you pushing things too fckn far.

+1,000,000

Everything that is happening now is precisely because of people like above, 100% DEI, 100% of the time, in every possible situation.

1000%

No, it’s a bunch of greedy MFers, primarily rich white men, trying to hoard resources.

In this thread context, I believe is rich Asian (mainly south).

Most South Asian people I know voted for Harris, but I’m sure there were some who bought into the rich white man entitlement mentality.

They went for Youngkin back in 2021, though. May have had a hand in tipping that election.

Not the people I know. They were fervently anti-Youngkin. They weren't fooled by his promises around nonexistent issues.

Most (not all) the Asians I know, South Asian or otherwise, voted for Youngkin. The TJ things was a factor.

This was my experience as well. And for all of his promises, Youngkin hasn’t done one single solitary damn thing for them on TJ. Not one.

Indirectly, got the incompetent principal replaced by a better one.

Youngkin had literally zero to do with Dr. Bonitatibus deciding that she wanted to make way more money and have influence over things like hiring the next TJ principal.

Why do people continue with the fantasy that somehow she was removed from the position?