Big Law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone child in Big Law. What their experience and what schools did they go to?

This forum is focused on "undergrad" according to so may DCUM posts so this doesn't belong here. All DCUMs want to talk about is how bad big publics are and how great the obscure and going out of business soon slacs are.

There are ignorant posters at DCUM who love to post lists of law school feeders, misinforming families looking at undergrad on the significance of undergrad choice in law school admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

+1

I only stayed seven years. The money was indeed great. I chose to live well below my means (minus a few mental health vacations in the Carribean) in order to pay off my (substanial) loans ASAP. I then bought a condo with minimum $ down, and made a fortune when I sold it five years later.

The key is to have an exit strategy in mind from the start. On the financial side, it's crucial to avoid the golden handcuffs. On the mental side, it's equally crucial to remain emotionally independent and not allow the job to become your identity. (There's a lot of mental BS, both explicit and implied, that says someone is "weak" or "can't hack it" if/when they leave the firm. Don't buy in to it and you'll be fine.)

As for the benefits, I think there were a few others, beyond the money. I managed to work for some brilliant and good people. Though my seven years included quite a bit of stress and misery, it was the first (only?) time I was pushed to the edge of my abilities and capacity. For someone like me, that experience was priceless.

In addition, I developed phenomenal work habits, vastly improved my writing, and learned to calculate risk and lean in hard when the potential reward seemed worth it.

Finally, I developed a priceless network of colleagues and friends, both within my firm and beyond. My best advice on that is to focus on the RELATIONSHIPS as well as the work. Careers are long. If you invest in your BigLaw colleagues (including those more senior to you, both within and beyond your specialty), the opportunities will be endless once you move on. Do everything you can to ensure you're not just a commodity, cog in the wheel, or a faceless associate.

As for schools, I agree with much of the advice above:

Your choice of undergrad school hardly matters, as long as you come out with a top GPA and LSAT score. Wherever you go, do your best to take as many classes as possible that include a heavy writing component. It's much easier to hone that skill as an undergrad than it is in a legal writing class or on the job.

For law school, T-15 is ideal. Most importantly, do everything possible to get top grades your first year. It's easier said than done, I know. Those undergrad writing skills will help. Also, try to find a 3rd year mentor. Ideally, someone at the top of their class who is willing to take you under their wing and teach you how to study effectively and do well on exams. It's not hard to find out who's at the top of their class. Start with the Law Review Ed Board and quietly ask around. I think I figured this out in less than a week, and he was more than willing to go to lunch periodically and provide exactly the type of advice and support I needed to book multiple classes. Again, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS.

+1 to the bolded. I only worked for 5 years, until my oldest was born, and still say that law school was one of the best decisions I ever made. Loans were paid off in 2 yrs. Lived below our means, unlike colleagues, yet still quite nicely. Spouse stayed in BigLaw, is now retired, plenty of money to full-pay whatever education our kids want, including grad school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

Former DOJ here, previously married to biglaw (class of 94). I think it's more nuanced than that. A lot of us (xH included) went into biglaw eyes wide open with the express intent of making great money and achieving defined goals with that money. Always with an exit plan in mind. "Miserable" didn't really factor into it, knowing that it was a means to an end with a clear endpoint -- identified at the beginning.

In our case, we made/saved/invested enough money early in our careers -- before xH exited -- to buy a big house in Chevy Chase and also fully fund undergraduate _and_ graduate school for our kids via investments. The money xH invested from the 90s has recently bought him a home on the water in MA.

This is all to say that a period in biglaw need not crush you, if you can articulate why you're there, avoid golden handcuffs, and have a rational exit plan

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dickinson then Penn. They are second year associate at a Biglaw firm in M&A. Got out early (6 pm) on Thanksgiving. We saved them a plate and then they had dessert with us.

Total comp this year will be $260k. So we talked about that for 45 minutes and then they took Metro back to their apartment in CityCenterDC.

Sounds miserable.

Sounds troll . . . and false.

Big law shuts down Wed-Sun on Thanksgiving week. Unless there is a deal ------ and if there was -- DC associates would not be working Thanksgiving.

I was in DC Biglaw and worked over several Thanksgivings. I was able to do so remotely, but ended up sequestering myself in a bedroom at my relatives' houses. If I was local I might have gone into the office for a quieter work spot.

Same here. In the office. Twice. Miserable.

I have been in Biglaw for 30 years. Much of that time as a partner so maybe what I know does not count since I control a lot of the schedule? But I have never worked over Thanksgiving except for a few hours here and there to set up for Monday. Could be practice specific -- investigations/white collar and former Fed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

I do not think most people take less money because miserable. Some do. Most look to leave becasue they know there is no long term future. Not going to be in the partnership run, times get slow they start letting seniors go. So people pick their off ramp while they can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Accounting/Finance is better. Get on a path to CFO to get the big bucks.

+ 1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

+1

I only stayed seven years. The money was indeed great. I chose to live well below my means (minus a few mental health vacations in the Carribean) in order to pay off my (substanial) loans ASAP. I then bought a condo with minimum $ down, and made a fortune when I sold it five years later.

The key is to have an exit strategy in mind from the start. On the financial side, it's crucial to avoid the golden handcuffs. On the mental side, it's equally crucial to remain emotionally independent and not allow the job to become your identity. (There's a lot of mental BS, both explicit and implied, that says someone is "weak" or "can't hack it" if/when they leave the firm. Don't buy in to it and you'll be fine.)

As for the benefits, I think there were a few others, beyond the money. I managed to work for some brilliant and good people. Though my seven years included quite a bit of stress and misery, it was the first (only?) time I was pushed to the edge of my abilities and capacity. For someone like me, that experience was priceless.

In addition, I developed phenomenal work habits, vastly improved my writing, and learned to calculate risk and lean in hard when the potential reward seemed worth it.

Finally, I developed a priceless network of colleagues and friends, both within my firm and beyond. My best advice on that is to focus on the RELATIONSHIPS as well as the work. Careers are long. If you invest in your BigLaw colleagues (including those more senior to you, both within and beyond your specialty), the opportunities will be endless once you move on. Do everything you can to ensure you're not just a commodity, cog in the wheel, or a faceless associate.

As for schools, I agree with much of the advice above:

Your choice of undergrad school hardly matters, as long as you come out with a top GPA and LSAT score. Wherever you go, do your best to take as many classes as possible that include a heavy writing component. It's much easier to hone that skill as an undergrad than it is in a legal writing class or on the job.

For law school, T-15 is ideal. Most importantly, do everything possible to get top grades your first year. It's easier said than done, I know. Those undergrad writing skills will help. Also, try to find a 3rd year mentor. Ideally, someone at the top of their class who is willing to take you under their wing and teach you how to study effectively and do well on exams. It's not hard to find out who's at the top of their class. Start with the Law Review Ed Board and quietly ask around. I think I figured this out in less than a week, and he was more than willing to go to lunch periodically and provide exactly the type of advice and support I needed to book multiple classes. Again, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS.

This is amazing advice - even though I took a different route that circumvented BigLaw, it’s totally on point.

+1. Great advice. (That last part about finding a 3L mentor is especially brilliant. I wish I had thought of that!)

I am 25 years out of law school, and I work in-house now and genuinely enjoy my job. I recommend that path after 6 years in BigLaw, which is what I did.

Oh, and getting a BigLaw job is not that easy. I know someone from a T14 Law School with top grades who still struggled to get a summer associate position for some reason. It took a while and she ended up at a top firm. But it was a stressful period in the interim.

[Anonymous]

Go to a college where you can earn a 4.0, any major. Then go to a T14 law school. If your kid happens to be good at math/science major in a hard science or engineering and sit for the patent bar after graduation.

It is a good idea to have some sort of direction or specialty, I recommend working for 2 - 4 years after undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go to a college where you can earn a 4.0, any major. Then go to a T14 law school. If your kid happens to be good at math/science major in a hard science or engineering and sit for the patent bar after graduation.

It is a good idea to have some sort of direction or specialty, I recommend working for 2 - 4 years after undergrad.

OH, also, on-campus recruiting and journal placement is based largely on 1L grades, so get top grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dickinson then Penn. They are second year associate at a Biglaw firm in M&A. Got out early (6 pm) on Thanksgiving. We saved them a plate and then they had dessert with us.

Total comp this year will be $260k. So we talked about that for 45 minutes and then they took Metro back to their apartment in CityCenterDC.

Sounds miserable.

Sounds troll . . . and false.

Big law shuts down Wed-Sun on Thanksgiving week. Unless there is a deal ------ and if there was -- DC associates would not be working Thanksgiving.

I was in DC Biglaw and worked over several Thanksgivings. I was able to do so remotely, but ended up sequestering myself in a bedroom at my relatives' houses. If I was local I might have gone into the office for a quieter work spot.

Same here. In the office. Twice. Miserable.

I have been in Biglaw for 30 years. Much of that time as a partner so maybe what I know does not count since I control a lot of the schedule? But I have never worked over Thanksgiving except for a few hours here and there to set up for Monday. Could be practice specific -- investigations/white collar and former Fed.

Respectfully, yes, you have. You just don’t remember. You’ve been at it too long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dickinson then Penn. They are second year associate at a Biglaw firm in M&A. Got out early (6 pm) on Thanksgiving. We saved them a plate and then they had dessert with us.

Total comp this year will be $260k. So we talked about that for 45 minutes and then they took Metro back to their apartment in CityCenterDC.

Sounds miserable.

Sounds troll . . . and false.

Big law shuts down Wed-Sun on Thanksgiving week. Unless there is a deal ------ and if there was -- DC associates would not be working Thanksgiving.

A client scheduled an 11 am call today for a term sheet walk-through. But I told them Biglaw shuts down Wed-Sun of Thanksgiving week so they apologized and rescheduled.