Big Law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

This is the case for most of us. It’s a lawyer thing, not a Big law thing. I don’t make big law money because I went straight from ls to DOJ via the honors program. Plenty of my cases end up written up in the NYT or Wall Street Journal. Most nights I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about a case.

This FinReg 40-hr week lawyer says … nah! I’ve never in my career had to do anything remotely as stressful as my BigLaw friends. of course they are rich and I am not, but I think I’d be dead if I had their jobs. I think about my job on the weekends but only because it is interesting.

Yes, well— you have a point. My Division has plenty of deadweight as well. Just like you.

unless you think litigation is the only possible way to practice law, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Sorry you chose a miserable career path, likely built on prioritizing prestige over what you actually cared about or enjoyed.

[Anonymous]

Accounting/Finance is better. Get on a path to CFO to get the big bucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UChicago gives at least 1/2 merit scholarship to UChicago undergraduates who are accepted into its law school.

You are mistaken. Not applicable to all alums. It's called The Chicago Law Scholars programs and gets you an early reading on your app, but it still highly selective. It was started by chicago law alums who wanted to keep top Chicago umdergrad applicants at Chicago Law not Yale, Harvard Stanford. Here is the link. https://www.law.uchicago.edu/chicago-law-scholars-program

+1. There is little on the internet about the chicago law scholars but a Reddit says only 3 out of 33 aplicants got it seven years ago and their stats were high. Google Chicago Law Scholar Reddit. Even the link provided above says it's competitive

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Accounting/Finance is better. Get on a path to CFO to get the big bucks.

MBA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Agree - Harvard Law grad, clerk, biglaw and gladky exited for DOJ

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC just started 2nd year as a NYC big law associate. Graduated from a top 5 Law School. Got a huge merit scholarship for law school coming from a state university. Debt free thanks to great grades and LSAT scores. Works in Corporate Finance. Works hard but deal closings have up and down times and better quality of life generally than litigation. Enjoys practice group and salary exceeding $250 K. Worked minimally Thanksgiving weekend.

Top 5 law schools don’t hand out huge merit scholarships. Name the school.

People always say this but they’re wrong. My kid got a Rubenstein Scholarship to UChicago Law, as did at least 10% of his class. Full ride plus $20k annual stipend

You might have bothered mentioning that the Rubenstein is only for URM low-income applicants as are most of the law merit scholarships. My kid is applying now. There is no merit at Harvard (my school), yale or stanford and those scholarships offered in the remaining T11 are almost always for URM/low income and not generous. He was told by a former Dean of a T4 that he would have to change skin color even with a 177, top grades and degrees from Oxbridge, to get merit. It is what it is. So we are planning - again - for full freight.

FWIW his white friends who got half tuition had to drop down to T40s and T60s, where, like with colleges, some law will trade scholarship monies for a top LSAT score or GPA or Rhodes bragging points

I call BS on this. No one told anybody this.

+1 Merit scholarships have little to do with URM status. Many students from Families that can afford to pay receive them if the stats are high enough.

False. That's exactly what the Rubenstein mentioned above is about. Merit money is given only for three reasons: 1) to kure a URM who would otherwise go to a school higher on the T list; 2) to lure an 800 who would otherwise go higher on the T list; 3) to lure a 4.0 who would otherwise go higher. That's why Harvard, Yale and Stanford Law don't offer merit. They don't need to move up the T list. Every year Harvard brags to me re incoming law stats. Currently, the 75th percentile of this year's entering class has a 3.99 or better and a 177 or better (i think Yale is identical but may be at 178). There is no way to go further up. It's only the schools below that offer merit in order to get higher stats students. it's the same system with undergrad in our nation: top
schools don't offer merit because they don't have to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone child in Big Law. What their experience and what schools did they go to?

This forum is focused on "undergrad" according to so may DCUM posts so this doesn't belong here. All DCUMs want to talk about is how bad big publics are and how great the obscure and going out of business soon slacs are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC just started 2nd year as a NYC big law associate. Graduated from a top 5 Law School. Got a huge merit scholarship for law school coming from a state university. Debt free thanks to great grades and LSAT scores. Works in Corporate Finance. Works hard but deal closings have up and down times and better quality of life generally than litigation. Enjoys practice group and salary exceeding $250 K. Worked minimally Thanksgiving weekend.

Top 5 law schools don’t hand out huge merit scholarships. Name the school.

People always say this but they’re wrong. My kid got a Rubenstein Scholarship to UChicago Law, as did at least 10% of his class. Full ride plus $20k annual stipend

You might have bothered mentioning that the Rubenstein is only for URM low-income applicants as are most of the law merit scholarships. My kid is applying now. There is no merit at Harvard (my school), yale or stanford and those scholarships offered in the remaining T11 are almost always for URM/low income and not generous. He was told by a former Dean of a T4 that he would have to change skin color even with a 177, top grades and degrees from Oxbridge, to get merit. It is what it is. So we are planning - again - for full freight.

FWIW his white friends who got half tuition had to drop down to T40s and T60s, where, like with colleges, some law will trade scholarship monies for a top LSAT score or GPA or Rhodes bragging points

I call BS on this. No one told anybody this.

+1 Merit scholarships have little to do with URM status. Many students from Families that can afford to pay receive them if the stats are high enough.

False. That's exactly what the Rubenstein mentioned above is about. Merit money is given only for three reasons: 1) to kure a URM who would otherwise go to a school higher on the T list; 2) to lure an 800 who would otherwise go higher on the T list; 3) to lure a 4.0 who would otherwise go higher. That's why Harvard, Yale and Stanford Law don't offer merit. They don't need to move up the T list. Every year Harvard brags to me re incoming law stats. Currently, the 75th percentile of this year's entering class has a 3.99 or better and a 177 or better (i think Yale is identical but may be at 178). There is no way to go further up. It's only the schools below that offer merit in order to get higher stats students. it's the same system with undergrad in our nation: top
schools don't offer merit because they don't have to

There are very few of these types of scholarships and it's not clear that they're actually much of a benefit over choosing Yale--that's why they have to offer so much money. If you're a top student at a top school then you'll have the option of doing a couple years of BigLaw, for both the prestige and to pay down your loans, before moving on to other options. Despite being lambasted on boards like this, BigLaw is a great option to get some experience early in your legal career. Stay if you like it. Move on if you don't.

I got no scholarship money and paid off my loans during my first year in BigLaw between my clerkship bonus and big paycheck. Taking loans for law school isn't a big deal as long as you are positioned to land a BigLaw spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dickinson then Penn. They are second year associate at a Biglaw firm in M&A. Got out early (6 pm) on Thanksgiving. We saved them a plate and then they had dessert with us.

Total comp this year will be $260k. So we talked about that for 45 minutes and then they took Metro back to their apartment in CityCenterDC.

Sounds miserable.

Do they have loans? If so, encourage them to cut their expenses as much as possible to pay them off ASAP. In the meantime, develop an exit strategy, including creating a niche for themselves within M&A. Develop relationships with a few local recruiters, and plan to move on for a better lifestyle as a third or fourth year.

Above all else, encourage them to live WELL BELOW thier means. The last thing they want/need is golden handcuffs. Throwing money at their loans will help with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dickinson then Penn. They are second year associate at a Biglaw firm in M&A. Got out early (6 pm) on Thanksgiving. We saved them a plate and then they had dessert with us.

Total comp this year will be $260k. So we talked about that for 45 minutes and then they took Metro back to their apartment in CityCenterDC.

Sounds miserable.

Sounds troll . . . and false.

Big law shuts down Wed-Sun on Thanksgiving week. Unless there is a deal ------ and if there was -- DC associates would not be working Thanksgiving.

I was in DC Biglaw and worked over several Thanksgivings. I was able to do so remotely, but ended up sequestering myself in a bedroom at my relatives' houses. If I was local I might have gone into the office for a quieter work spot.

Same here. In the office. Twice. Miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dickinson then Penn. They are second year associate at a Biglaw firm in M&A. Got out early (6 pm) on Thanksgiving. We saved them a plate and then they had dessert with us.

Total comp this year will be $260k. So we talked about that for 45 minutes and then they took Metro back to their apartment in CityCenterDC.

Sounds miserable.

Sounds troll . . . and false.

Big law shuts down Wed-Sun on Thanksgiving week. Unless there is a deal ------ and if there was -- DC associates would not be working Thanksgiving.

I’m old but I worked every holiday for the first few years as a junior associate in BigLaw.

Correct. I remember working Christmas Eve as a junior associate to finalize documents for service. Absolutely insane.

yep. I don’t think there’s even any holiday that BigLaw shuts down for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

This is the case for most of us. It’s a lawyer thing, not a Big law thing. I don’t make big law money because I went straight from ls to DOJ via the honors program. Plenty of my cases end up written up in the NYT or Wall Street Journal. Most nights I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about a case.

Do you have friends who left DOJ and were happy at big law? The ones I know, cashed out, but found big law very miserable unless they went in with ~25 years experience.

So your DOJ work is important, yes, but most agencies opt out of the misery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

+1

I only stayed seven years. The money was indeed great. I chose to live well below my means (minus a few mental health vacations in the Carribean) in order to pay off my (substanial) loans ASAP. I then bought a condo with minimum $ down, and made a fortune when I sold it five years later.

The key is to have an exit strategy in mind from the start. On the financial side, it's crucial to avoid the golden handcuffs. On the mental side, it's equally crucial to remain emotionally independent and not allow the job to become your identity. (There's a lot of mental BS, both explicit and implied, that says someone is "weak" or "can't hack it" if/when they leave the firm. Don't buy in to it and you'll be fine.)

As for the benefits, I think there were a few others, beyond the money. I managed to work for some brilliant and good people. Though my seven years included quite a bit of stress and misery, it was the first (only?) time I was pushed to the edge of my abilities and capacity. For someone like me, that experience was priceless.

In addition, I developed phenomenal work habits, vastly improved my writing, and learned to calculate risk and lean in hard when the potential reward seemed worth it.

Finally, I developed a priceless network of colleagues and friends, both within my firm and beyond. My best advice on that is to focus on the RELATIONSHIPS as well as the work. Careers are long. If you invest in your BigLaw colleagues (including those more senior to you, both within and beyond your specialty), the opportunities will be endless once you move on. Do everything you can to ensure you're not just a commodity, cog in the wheel, or a faceless associate.

As for schools, I agree with much of the advice above:

Your choice of undergrad school hardly matters, as long as you come out with a top GPA and LSAT score. Wherever you go, do your best to take as many classes as possible that include a heavy writing component. It's much easier to hone that skill as an undergrad than it is in a legal writing class or on the job.

For law school, T-15 is ideal. Most importantly, do everything possible to get top grades your first year. It's easier said than done, I know. Those undergrad writing skills will help. Also, try to find a 3rd year mentor. Ideally, someone at the top of their class who is willing to take you under their wing and teach you how to study effectively and do well on exams. It's not hard to find out who's at the top of their class. Start with the Law Review Ed Board and quietly ask around. I think I figured this out in less than a week, and he was more than willing to go to lunch periodically and provide exactly the type of advice and support I needed to book multiple classes. Again, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Big Law partner here. All I can say is that in all of my years I have never - not once - met anyone who left Big Law who regretted the decision to leave any reason other than they’re now making less money.

Current Big Law lawyers will now pipe in and say either it’s not so bad or that it’s actually great and they love it. And that’s fine. But, again, they haven’t actually left so they really can’t know.

In my view, the biggest problem with big law isn’t necessarily the long hours, high stress, and ridiculous expectations that often come your way. It’s that it is with you, always. Even when you’re not working, you’re feeling like you need to be or you should be. It’s just always a huge part of your identity. At least that was my experience.

I don’t regret having done it, but only because of the money. I sure made a lot of it and it made retiring early very easy.

Most everyone leaves big law for less money. That should be the clue on how miserable it is, but people still don’t get it.

+1

I only stayed seven years. The money was indeed great. I chose to live well below my means (minus a few mental health vacations in the Carribean) in order to pay off my (substanial) loans ASAP. I then bought a condo with minimum $ down, and made a fortune when I sold it five years later.

The key is to have an exit strategy in mind from the start. On the financial side, it's crucial to avoid the golden handcuffs. On the mental side, it's equally crucial to remain emotionally independent and not allow the job to become your identity. (There's a lot of mental BS, both explicit and implied, that says someone is "weak" or "can't hack it" if/when they leave the firm. Don't buy in to it and you'll be fine.)

As for the benefits, I think there were a few others, beyond the money. I managed to work for some brilliant and good people. Though my seven years included quite a bit of stress and misery, it was the first (only?) time I was pushed to the edge of my abilities and capacity. For someone like me, that experience was priceless.

In addition, I developed phenomenal work habits, vastly improved my writing, and learned to calculate risk and lean in hard when the potential reward seemed worth it.

Finally, I developed a priceless network of colleagues and friends, both within my firm and beyond. My best advice on that is to focus on the RELATIONSHIPS as well as the work. Careers are long. If you invest in your BigLaw colleagues (including those more senior to you, both within and beyond your specialty), the opportunities will be endless once you move on. Do everything you can to ensure you're not just a commodity, cog in the wheel, or a faceless associate.

As for schools, I agree with much of the advice above:

Your choice of undergrad school hardly matters, as long as you come out with a top GPA and LSAT score. Wherever you go, do your best to take as many classes as possible that include a heavy writing component. It's much easier to hone that skill as an undergrad than it is in a legal writing class or on the job.

For law school, T-15 is ideal. Most importantly, do everything possible to get top grades your first year. It's easier said than done, I know. Those undergrad writing skills will help. Also, try to find a 3rd year mentor. Ideally, someone at the top of their class who is willing to take you under their wing and teach you how to study effectively and do well on exams. It's not hard to find out who's at the top of their class. Start with the Law Review Ed Board and quietly ask around. I think I figured this out in less than a week, and he was more than willing to go to lunch periodically and provide exactly the type of advice and support I needed to book multiple classes. Again, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS.

This is amazing advice - even though I took a different route that circumvented BigLaw, it’s totally on point.