Williams or Princeton?

[Anonymous]

I’m a fan of small liberal arts colleges, so I’d go with Williams. Great choices to have though!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know a single student at Princeton who truly was committed to pursuing a medical career who didn’t get into med school.

Orgo is a tough class at many universities across the nation.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/10/25/reflections-failing-organic-chemistry-opinion

I know tons of people who didn’t make it. But if you survive the courses, you’ll get into med school for sure

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dc is also premed at Princeton. not a stem genius. works very hard in stem classes and gets good grades. Got a great summer internship through Princeton with an alum at a major hospital. fully funded. DC works very hard but I think that comes with the terriority.

This is the typical experience. Amazing opportunities at Princeton for research, study abroad (including on spring break trips), and internships. Philadelphia and NYC are also each within about 50 miles.

[Anonymous]

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

[Anonymous]

At Princeton if things are going south in organic, you know pretty early in the semester and you can drop it until quite late. If those kids still want to become a doctor, they can do a post back or they can try orgo again the following year.

[Anonymous]

*post-bacc

[Anonymous]

As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

At HYPSM you’re dealing the academically strongest gunners from their high school cohorts.

For the sake of argument, let’s imagine that at every school in America only 20% of people get A’s in Organic Chemistry. My claim is that the median Princeton student would likely be in the 20% of people who get A’s at most schools, whereas by the definition of “median”, at Princeton they will not get an A.

Now add on that the 20% assumption is probably not true of many near competitors like Harvard, Yale, or Stanford which likely give out more A’s. Under reasonable assumptions, for an identical student, it is likely much harder to get an A in Orgo at Princeton than at the vast majority of other colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

At HYPSM you’re dealing the academically strongest gunners from their high school cohorts.

For the sake of argument, let’s imagine that at every school in America only 20% of people get A’s in Organic Chemistry. My claim is that the median Princeton student would likely be in the 20% of people who get A’s at most schools, whereas by the definition of “median”, at Princeton they will not get an A.

Now add on that the 20% assumption is probably not true of many near competitors like Harvard, Yale, or Stanford which likely give out more A’s. Under reasonable assumptions, for an identical student, it is likely much harder to get an A in Orgo at Princeton than at the vast majority of other colleges.

Lots of assumptions embedded there.

Overall, the average GPA at Princeton is about 0.15 lower than at Harvard and Yale. If you assume that grading is tougher in STEM-oriented courses, which seems like a reasonable assumption, and correct for that factor, taking into account that Princeton is more STEM-oriented that the other schools, the GPA difference would be smaller. Stated differently, it's entirely possible that grading in Orgo at Princeton is not much different - much less "much harder" - than at Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, but that people may simply assume that to be the case based on lower average GPAs.

Further, you could look like a star upon your arrival at Princeton, yet still struggle in Organic Chemistry, whether you took it at Princeton, MIT, or Virginia Tech. The admissions department is not looking to fill 1500 seats with kids guaranteed to sail through one of the most challenging courses at any university.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

Thus is just incorrect, Princeton stem doesn’t have the grade inflation you’ll find at Harvard or Yale. My child is pre med and currently taking orgo at a non-Ivy. Yes, there are kids not passing the course but most kids are scoring in the 70s and above. Her friends at Princeton reported a class average of 30 something in a regular chem class test this fall, and lower than that for Calc 1. It’s several orders of magnitude more difficult grading than STEM at peer schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

Thus is just incorrect, Princeton stem doesn’t have the grade inflation you’ll find at Harvard or Yale. My child is pre med and currently taking orgo at a non-Ivy. Yes, there are kids not passing the course but most kids are scoring in the 70s and above. Her friends at Princeton reported a class average of 30 something in a regular chem class test this fall, and lower than that for Calc 1. It’s several orders of magnitude more difficult grading than STEM at peer schools.

I got a 40% on the first quiz in my Econ 101 class at Princeton and still got an A in the class. It was a test to let us know that we should stay on top of the course work or we'd fall behind later when it mattered more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

Thus is just incorrect, Princeton stem doesn’t have the grade inflation you’ll find at Harvard or Yale. My child is pre med and currently taking orgo at a non-Ivy. Yes, there are kids not passing the course but most kids are scoring in the 70s and above. Her friends at Princeton reported a class average of 30 something in a regular chem class test this fall, and lower than that for Calc 1. It’s several orders of magnitude more difficult grading than STEM at peer schools.

I got a 40% on the first quiz in my Econ 101 class at Princeton and still got an A in the class. It was a test to let us know that we should stay on top of the course work or we'd fall behind later when it mattered more.

Class average and you having a bad test are different, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

Thus is just incorrect, Princeton stem doesn’t have the grade inflation you’ll find at Harvard or Yale. My child is pre med and currently taking orgo at a non-Ivy. Yes, there are kids not passing the course but most kids are scoring in the 70s and above. Her friends at Princeton reported a class average of 30 something in a regular chem class test this fall, and lower than that for Calc 1. It’s several orders of magnitude more difficult grading than STEM at peer schools.

I got a 40% on the first quiz in my Econ 101 class at Princeton and still got an A in the class. It was a test to let us know that we should stay on top of the course work or we'd fall behind later when it mattered more.

Class average and you having a bad test are different, no?

No, the class average on the first quiz was low, but we learned how to raise our game.

This notion that Princeton is exponential more difficult than other top schools is a load of bullshit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

Thus is just incorrect, Princeton stem doesn’t have the grade inflation you’ll find at Harvard or Yale. My child is pre med and currently taking orgo at a non-Ivy. Yes, there are kids not passing the course but most kids are scoring in the 70s and above. Her friends at Princeton reported a class average of 30 something in a regular chem class test this fall, and lower than that for Calc 1. It’s several orders of magnitude more difficult grading than STEM at peer schools.

I got a 40% on the first quiz in my Econ 101 class at Princeton and still got an A in the class. It was a test to let us know that we should stay on top of the course work or we'd fall behind later when it mattered more.

Class average and you having a bad test are different, no?

No, the class average on the first quiz was low, but we learned how to raise our game.

This notion that Princeton is exponential more difficult than other top schools is a load of bullshit.

Weird because that isn’t what I hear from current and past STEM students. In any case, it’s just a consideration for op and her student to explore, not a debate point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know tons of people who didn’t make it.

DP, also Princeton alum. I know many who didn’t make it as well.

The shame is at a less rigorous school they probably would have been fine. The rigor is intense.

According to studies, the failure rate for organic chemistry classes nationwide is roughly 25-50%. Organic chemistry is considered a difficult class at, among other schools, Williams: see https://wso.williams.edu/wiki/index.php/Hard_classes#Organic_Chemistry

I think some at Ivies expect to sail through all their courses and treat any setbacks as unfair, but the point of going to an Ivy shouldn't be to be completely insulated from the challenges that students face at other universities. As a general matter, grade inflation is higher at Ivies than at many other schools.

Thus is just incorrect, Princeton stem doesn’t have the grade inflation you’ll find at Harvard or Yale. My child is pre med and currently taking orgo at a non-Ivy. Yes, there are kids not passing the course but most kids are scoring in the 70s and above. Her friends at Princeton reported a class average of 30 something in a regular chem class test this fall, and lower than that for Calc 1. It’s several orders of magnitude more difficult grading than STEM at peer schools.

I got a 40% on the first quiz in my Econ 101 class at Princeton and still got an A in the class. It was a test to let us know that we should stay on top of the course work or we'd fall behind later when it mattered more.

Class average and you having a bad test are different, no?

No, the class average on the first quiz was low, but we learned how to raise our game.

This notion that Princeton is exponential more difficult than other top schools is a load of bullshit.

well in some courses (not all) it is!