I’m Arab and Christian- why are people always so surprised ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Oh that’s right, Muslim oppression of Christian minorities is the Jew’s fault!

No, you are purposely misunderstanding and besides you have been unable to cite incidents of Muslim persecution of Christians since 1948. Coptic PP has cited references to sad incidents in some Egyptian villages, but these are not government operations.

Freedom to choose your religion is definitely a fraught issue as religion has largely been seen as something you are born with in the Middle East, with exception to conversion to Islam, which historically was an effort to root out paganism. But freedom to practice your (monotheistic) religion has been widely respected.

So in other words, Muslims must stay Muslims and can't become anything else because that is what is tradition in the Middle East, but non Muslims are free to covert to Islam, as it is good to root out other religions. Got it.

Not quite. There's the jizya tax, but people of the book (the Bible) like Christians and Jews are allowed to exist under Islam, they just can't take converts.

Some saw the jizya tax as a good deal because it exempted you from military service, a real consideration during Islam's early days of conquest. (Note: The jizya tax has not existed for a very long time lest someone think Christians still pay this. Christians also serve in the armed forces and can rise to very high rank but not to the top where they would lead the armed forces.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

Are you unfamiliar with the Assyrian genocide, Hammidian massacres, and Muslim conquests?

It is literally unbelievable that someone claims Christian persecution “only really started” after the creation of Israel. Wow. Take a history class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

The fact that you are not aware of this all (or what actually is reality is that you don't care to acknowledge the truth of it) is not of consequence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Oh that’s right, Muslim oppression of Christian minorities is the Jew’s fault!

No, you are purposely misunderstanding and besides you have been unable to cite incidents of Muslim persecution of Christians since 1948. Coptic PP has cited references to sad incidents in some Egyptian villages, but these are not government operations.

Freedom to choose your religion is definitely a fraught issue as religion has largely been seen as something you are born with in the Middle East, with exception to conversion to Islam, which historically was an effort to root out paganism. But freedom to practice your (monotheistic) religion has been widely respected.

So in other words, Muslims must stay Muslims and can't become anything else because that is what is tradition in the Middle East, but non Muslims are free to covert to Islam, as it is good to root out other religions. Got it.

Not quite. There's the jizya tax, but people of the book (the Bible) like Christians and Jews are allowed to exist under Islam, they just can't take converts.

And we all are just supposed to say "oh ok" with this as if this fine and not considered persecution?

It's not persecution. Thanks pp for pointing out that paying jizya exempted you from the army.

Arabs had much more tolerance than Christians did for other religions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

Also, the idea that Armenians were persecuted because they didn't renounce Jesus in their hearts, and not because of their ethnicity (in which being one of the oldest Christian people is a HUGE aspect of self definition), is applying a very Protestant American view of religion and history that isn't really accurate. I an Armenian-American and have actually offended Armenians who fled to Russia during the genocide by asking too many questions about "belief" as though this was an individually chosen and changeable part of their identities. It's pretty closely analogous to saying agnostic or non-practicing Jews aren't really Jewish, for example.

Ok, just wanted to explain that. I'm not actually trying to argue that Christians are not or have not been persecuted in the Middle East, but at least consider that religion isn't the same in that context.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Oh that’s right, Muslim oppression of Christian minorities is the Jew’s fault!

No, you are purposely misunderstanding and besides you have been unable to cite incidents of Muslim persecution of Christians since 1948. Coptic PP has cited references to sad incidents in some Egyptian villages, but these are not government operations.

Freedom to choose your religion is definitely a fraught issue as religion has largely been seen as something you are born with in the Middle East, with exception to conversion to Islam, which historically was an effort to root out paganism. But freedom to practice your (monotheistic) religion has been widely respected.

So in other words, Muslims must stay Muslims and can't become anything else because that is what is tradition in the Middle East, but non Muslims are free to covert to Islam, as it is good to root out other religions. Got it.

Not quite. There's the jizya tax, but people of the book (the Bible) like Christians and Jews are allowed to exist under Islam, they just can't take converts.

And we all are just supposed to say "oh ok" with this as if this fine and not considered persecution?

It's not persecution. Thanks pp for pointing out that paying jizya exempted you from the army.

Arabs had much more tolerance than Christians did for other religions.

yes it is persecution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

we’re excluding one of the worst historical genocides? come again?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

Are you unfamiliar with the Assyrian genocide, Hammidian massacres, and Muslim conquests?

It is literally unbelievable that someone claims Christian persecution “only really started” after the creation of Israel. Wow. Take a history class.

The Levant was a peaceful place of coexistence until European Jewish colonizers came. Is the argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

Are you unfamiliar with the Assyrian genocide, Hammidian massacres, and Muslim conquests?

It is literally unbelievable that someone claims Christian persecution “only really started” after the creation of Israel. Wow. Take a history class.

We were talking about this century and the last in Arab countries, not in Turkey or Persia, which is where the Assyrian genocide and Hamidian massacres took place.

A PP even referred to "recent" instances of severe oppression of Christians in specific Arab countries but has not provided cites. And the Wikipedia cite offered was all about the the Islamic State, not legitimate states.