I’m Arab and Christian- why are people always so surprised ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

This is entirely false. The greatest persecution of Christians in the Middle East occurred during the Interwar Period and also coincided with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

If you are speaking of Armenians in Turkey as part of the Middle East, I concede the point. If you are excluding the Armenians, whom, as I pointed out fled to safety living among Arabs in the Levant, I'd like to see some cites.

we’re excluding one of the worst historical genocides? come again?

Because the subject line is about ARABS, not Turks. It is also not about Muslims generally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

Why do you think freedom of religion isn’t a thing in the Arab world?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that the large majority of Arabs are Muslim .. but he was Jesus of Nazareth, not Jesus of New Jersey!

People in USA don't believe Jesus was any kind of Semite. He was white like us.

This is instance. Of course Americans know he was middle eastern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that the large majority of Arabs are Muslim .. but he was Jesus of Nazareth, not Jesus of New Jersey!

People in USA don't believe Jesus was any kind of Semite. He was white like us.

This is instance. Of course Americans know he was middle eastern.

The vast majority of American Christians know that Jesus was a Jew.

[Anonymous]

Honestly op I'd be more surprised if you were Arab and homosexual. Arab and Christian, Arab and Muslim, whatever. Ever thought about being Zoroastrian, at least that's cool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

Why do you think freedom of religion isn’t a thing in the Arab world?

The religion you are born into is part of your identity and the identity of your tribe. Tribalism is still very much alive, even if it is mostly below the surface today, and being an outcast from your tribe is not a desirable situation.

If I had to think of analogy, however, imperfect, it is kind of like freedom of nationality is not a thing for us. We are born into our nationality and cannot convert into any nationality we want. There are, however, arduous ways by which the very determined can change their nationality (change their religion) but they all involve leaving their country.

[Anonymous]

Adding that, Americans are not very friendly to their fellow Americans who give up their U.S. nationality and take on the nationality of another country. so unpatriotic!

Arabs on the other hand, face no cultural stigma in giving up their nationality and taking on another one. Their identity is not bound up in their identity the way their religion and tribe are.

[Anonymous]

^^^should be "their nationality [not identity] is not bound u in their identity..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

Why do you think freedom of religion isn’t a thing in the Arab world?

The religion you are born into is part of your identity and the identity of your tribe. Tribalism is still very much alive, even if it is mostly below the surface today, and being an outcast from your tribe is not a desirable situation.

If I had to think of analogy, however, imperfect, it is kind of like freedom of nationality is not a thing for us. We are born into our nationality and cannot convert into any nationality we want. There are, however, arduous ways by which the very determined can change their nationality (change their religion) but they all involve leaving their country.

If any of this is true (and who appointed you a professor of anthropology), who cares? We don't need to think any of this inherent or good or necessary.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

Why do you think freedom of religion isn’t a thing in the Arab world?

The religion you are born into is part of your identity and the identity of your tribe. Tribalism is still very much alive, even if it is mostly below the surface today, and being an outcast from your tribe is not a desirable situation.

If I had to think of analogy, however, imperfect, it is kind of like freedom of nationality is not a thing for us. We are born into our nationality and cannot convert into any nationality we want. There are, however, arduous ways by which the very determined can change their nationality (change their religion) but they all involve leaving their country.

If any of this is true (and who appointed you a professor of anthropology), who cares? We don't need to think any of this inherent or good or necessary.

I was asked a question as to my thoughts on why freedom of religion (as we understand it) is not a thing in the Arab world and gave my thoughts, which you are free to reject.

Countries' institutional arrangements for governing most often are not inherently good or inherently bad; they are just the way that was chosen influenced by pre-existing factors and, often convenience. Instituting freedom of religion as we know it would require a very large change in legal arrangements and structure in these countries, as well as a huge mind shift in the population's mindset.

And by the way, Israel is not so different--it did not allow civil, non-religious marriages until 2010 and interfaith marriages cannot be performed there. They loosely follow the same Ottoman millet system for civil status that the Arab countries do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

Why do you think freedom of religion isn’t a thing in the Arab world?

The religion you are born into is part of your identity and the identity of your tribe. Tribalism is still very much alive, even if it is mostly below the surface today, and being an outcast from your tribe is not a desirable situation.

If I had to think of analogy, however, imperfect, it is kind of like freedom of nationality is not a thing for us. We are born into our nationality and cannot convert into any nationality we want. There are, however, arduous ways by which the very determined can change their nationality (change their religion) but they all involve leaving their country.

If any of this is true (and who appointed you a professor of anthropology), who cares? We don't need to think any of this inherent or good or necessary.

I was asked a question as to my thoughts on why freedom of religion (as we understand it) is not a thing in the Arab world and gave my thoughts, which you are free to reject.

Countries' institutional arrangements for governing most often are not inherently good or inherently bad; they are just the way that was chosen influenced by pre-existing factors and, often convenience. Instituting freedom of religion as we know it would require a very large change in legal arrangements and structure in these countries, as well as a huge mind shift in the population's mindset.

And by the way, Israel is not so different--it did not allow civil, non-religious marriages until 2010 and interfaith marriages cannot be performed there. They loosely follow the same Ottoman millet system for civil status that the Arab countries do.

No, you were asked why do you make an assumption that there isn't freedom of religion in the Arab world, not asked for your expert knowledge on your "correct" observation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly op I'd be more surprised if you were Arab and homosexual. Arab and Christian, Arab and Muslim, whatever. Ever thought about being Zoroastrian, at least that's cool

Zoroastrians are Indian/pakistani or Persian. how is this DCUM- not Missouri rural mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think some people understand that Muslim countries still have pockets of Christians and sometimes up to million to a million and a half Christians.

Some of the Christians in Muslim countries come from very, very ancient sects.

The title of your post is misleading. Most Christians in the Middle East are not Arab but rather Assyrian, Copt, Armenian, Greek, Chaldean, Aramaic (Syriacs), and Phoenician (as many Lebanese Christians identify).
But you are right, they are very ancient communities. The hatred and persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer from the Arabs is wholly tragic. Pope Francis has often brought attention to this.

OP here. Christians in the Arab countries of the Middle East are Arabs! I know many Lebanese Christians who will tell me - in plain Arabic - they are not Arab, they are Pheonician. Several DNA studies have shown that both Lebanese Muslims and Christians are descendant from the Phoenicians but somehow Lebanese Christian’s want to distance themselves from the Arabs because of the common misconception than Arabs are mostly Muslim.

LOL.
I’ll take their word regarding what they are over yours. Go label someone else.

I am Coptic and I tell people my parents are Egyptian. People barely understand where Egypt is, much less what Coptic means and I’m not getting into sectarian divides with acquaintances and strangers.

You have to remember that the Lebanese went through a very traumatic sectarian war recently and many people from these other groups faced really heinous treatment from the Muslim majority and thus refuse to identify as Arabs. A lot of Coptic people refuse to identify as Arab as well but I find it somewhat silly. My parents have more in common with a Lebanese Muslim than an American baptist.

In the recent past Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan all have brutally oppressed their Christian minorities.

Please give examples. This is the second time you have alleged this and you cited it as the reason for Christian emigration. If Christians were so oppressed in that area, why did so many Armenians emigrate to the Middle East when facing persecution in Turkey?

FYI, neither Christian nor Muslim Arabs were big fans of the Ottomans; Christians were not singled out by Ottoman authorities.

In fact, Christian emigration from the Levant began in the 19th century for economic reasons. You can see this especially in the last names of prominent people from South America.

But you see it here too. For example the Sununus of New Hampshire, whom I am sure our "I've never met a Christian Arab" poster does not recognize as Arab.

Are you claiming that Middle Eastern Christians are not persecuted? This is easily disproven by anyone who can use google.

There have been incidents in Egypt and of course ISIS was crazy. But popular appeal of Islamic nationalism stuff came in reaction to the founding of Israel and loss of Arab territory (in which many Christians lived), particularly after 1967. Please cite evidence of Christian persecution before this, true persecution, not things like Muslims not being allowed to convert, which Arab Christians don't really care about.

DH is an Arab Christian, who lived in his Middle Eastern homeland the majority of his life. He and his family have never felt persecuted, nor have they ever referred to any historical instances of Christian persecution.

Why should ISIS be dismissed as an afterthought just because mentioning it doesn't fit your narrative? Yes, ISIS is an example of a group containing Muslim Arabs that persecuted Middle Eastern Christians.

Muslims not being able to convert is the definition of persecution. People who in their heart are called to be Christians are told they are not allowed to do so. Of course Arab Christians care about this.

I personally don't know any Arab Christians that spend any time even thinking about this as persecution because, for better or for worse, religion is taken as something you are born with, a sort of inherited trait if you will. Much as Judaism is something you are born with, the difference being that it comes from the mother's line, not the father's as it does among Arabs.

No, it isn't. You are explaining away the reality of persecution.

I see where you see this as persecution of someone who is Christian in their heart and can't convert. However, another way of looking at it is that a person who is born Muslim is the one who is suffering persecution because he cannot convert to the religion he wishes.

Why are you being so cutsey and speaking in a riddle? Just say that you think that a person who is born Muslim will always be Muslim and they may be said in their delusion that they are really a Christian and can't become one due to their peers around them (who actually are the ones who are right and are only protecting the poor soul).

I think you are missing out on a lot of the role of religion in the Middle East. And by religion I don't mean your theological beliefs but the religion you are born into. Laws on civil status are totally governed by the religion you are born into and dictate marriage rights, including divorce and right or not to polygamy, the religion of children, guardianship of children whose parent are deceased, and inheritance. On top of that there are tribal views that get interspersed with religion to the point where many people view tribal customs as dictated by their religion when they in fact are not.

The only Arab Christians I know who have converted to Islam are men who have done so to marry a Muslim woman. While Christian women can marry Muslim men (and keep their religion), Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims.

I do know a Muslim man who fled with his Christian girlfriend to Syria where they found a priest who baptized him and married the couple, but her family cut her off because she married in their view a Muslim. In other words, they did not view the conversion as valid, precisely because under the laws of their homeland he will always be a Muslim.

After many years and emigration to the U.S. of the woman, her husband, and her family and the death of her father and all is forgiven. Almost. Her family still lived in the fear that the father could return to their homeland with the baptized and raised Catholic U.S. born children and register them as Muslim (the only choice for him under civil status laws because children of a born Muslim man are always Muslim), but that has gone away now that they are over 18.

Ok...you continue to explain away persecution as "this is just how we do things".
"Muslim" women should be able to marry whoever they want by the way.
No one is always Muslim, unless their culture or gov't is a persecutor who forces them to claim a religion.

You are arguing absolute freedom of religion, which is not a thing in the Arab world, and implementing it would require a huge legal lift.

Everyone has to register with the government with their religion and the religious courts determine all things concerning civil status. Unlike here, there are no governmental laws concerning marriage, divorce, alimony, guardianship, or inheritance. So, yes, it is kind of the way things are. If born a Muslim, you are always Muslim as a matter of law but your actually beliefs and practices are not dictated.

I know plenty of Muslim women who married non Muslims, who always did a pro forma conversion to Islam before the marriage.

Why do you think freedom of religion isn’t a thing in the Arab world?

The religion you are born into is part of your identity and the identity of your tribe. Tribalism is still very much alive, even if it is mostly below the surface today, and being an outcast from your tribe is not a desirable situation.

If I had to think of analogy, however, imperfect, it is kind of like freedom of nationality is not a thing for us. We are born into our nationality and cannot convert into any nationality we want. There are, however, arduous ways by which the very determined can change their nationality (change their religion) but they all involve leaving their country.

Outside of USA, "nation" refers to ethnicity. "state" is a political entity like member of the UN. A nation-state is an ethnic group that has a state. Separatist movements and Civil wars are fought when a nation wants its own state. Native Americans are members of their specific Nation even if they are US citizens.

Part of the Russia-Ukraine war is about that dividing line.

Splitting nations and recombining them into state s(promoting civil war) is how Great Britain kept its former colonial territories weak after "freeing" them. (Palestine, India, Africa).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly op I'd be more surprised if you were Arab and homosexual. Arab and Christian, Arab and Muslim, whatever. Ever thought about being Zoroastrian, at least that's cool

Zoroastrians are Indian/pakistani or Persian. how is this DCUM- not Missouri rural mom.

How are you a xenophobic arsehole mom.