Making up things in common app activities and awards

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The entire system is set up to reward rich extraverted sociopaths who like to brag.

The process is absolute BS - rewards things that can be bought and made up (apparently - I didn’t realize people lied on their common app!) and got rid of standardized tests that are available to all with free prep and low to no cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I'm kind of completely turned off by the Ivies and similar right now because I picture them being completely filled with the liars, cheaters and products of extreme helicopter parents. I.e. a wholly unappealing bunch and the kids that mine have tried to avoid.

(I'm being honest here--I'm sure the next posters will say that my kids could never get in anyway---probably true--but the kids applying to Ivies from their schools are largely a group that my kids want nothing to do with because of their intense and often unethical behavior).

I went to grad school at Harvard and was an RA in the 2010s--I found the undergrad students to be generally amazing, brilliant and kind people. They are fairly earnest too. Don't believe the hype.

You would have no idea if undergrads lied in their applications just bc you were an RA.

- former RA

Of course not, but you get a sense of whether students are liars and cheaters writ large when you live with them for 6 years. I just don't find the caricatures of them to be even remotely connected to reality. I think the students that go to Harvard (or other elite school that I don't have direct knowledge of) from denser population areas filled with Type A highly educated folks like the DMV might have a greater chance of being schemers since the competition is so high and the culture has more of that vibe. But there are students from every state and throughout the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, what's the difference between stretching the truth on ECs and submitting a test score which represents hours of undisclosed one on one tutoring, multiple retakes and extra time in a quiet room?

In one example you put the work into it (testing prep), and in the other example you pretend you did something you didn’t.

Writing down ECs you never did or greatly exaggerating is akin to having someone else take the test for you. You know, cheating.

Studying for hours to take a test(s) that everyone can take multiple times is the same as putting in the work in a time intensive ECs that build upon each other and then writing down the highest level attained(without exaggerating).

Ah the privilege!

It costs about 40 dollars and is also offered multiple times at public school. That is less than most lower income people spend on cable or Starbucks for a few drinks per month. And yea you can study for years if you want to with the free resources online. Ah!!

Tell me you don't know any lower income people without telling me you don't know any lower income people.

Lower income people (the majority of my extended family as well as my husband's) spend $0/month on cable and Starbucks.

+1 I laughed out loud. Starbucks!?! And who has cable? Their grandma?

Doesn’t everyone have cable these days?

I assume you are joking or over 55 years old.

Cable is a dying industry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

💯

Some of these admissions people are awful at sussing out character. They want leaders leaders leaders, we’ll guess what? Many “leaders” have sharp elbows and competitively race everyone to the top, pushing people to the side as they go. They’re not exactly the “kind” sort of students Dartmouth claims they want.

My kid’s longtime classmate is a leader, she lies and cheats at every turn. Dartmouth would not know.

Begin teaching your child the lesson that life is not fair now. I see this reality hitting UMC children hardest at this juncture because their parents have not laid the appropriate groundwork early on in their lives. I remember my parents messaging to me from very early in ES that sometimes cheaters win, that sometimes the people who are better/faster/smoother talkers win, and that sometimes you will lose even when you “won” on merit. I was not taught that I deserved anything, because while I was most special to my parents, every other child was as special to theirs and I had no idea what struggles or advantages were going on with others behind closed doors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire system is set up to reward rich extraverted sociopaths who like to brag.

The process is absolute BS - rewards things that can be bought and made up (apparently - I didn’t realize people lied on their common app!) and got rid of standardized tests that are available to all with free prep and low to no cost.

Ok, testing zealot. This is really old. It is clear that testing is only one metric (one that essentially your family has prepped for well, so of course you want to lobby for some kind of equity notion). Other accomplishments are valid ways of determining a great potential candidate. The real takeaway here is teach integrity. Don't cheat. Don't dump everything on the system (even though it's clearly not perfect), which just legitimizes cheating with an "end justifies the means" attitude. That "winning" focus may have gained ground with a certain politician, but that mindset just begets a chaotic grabfest and undermines any integrity or ethics. Just be honest and try to put yourself in the best light possible.

[Anonymous]

Well, the universities are lying to you. Why not lie to them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The entire system is set up to reward extraverted sociopaths who like to brag.

💯
So weird that everyone is in denial that this is the reality.
It’s the system.
Play the hand you’ve got - talk yourself up. It’s called a brag sheet for a reason.

Brag brag, brag, expand on every single thing.
Find ways to make the simplest things seem the most monumental.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

💯

Some of these admissions people are awful at sussing out character. They want leaders leaders leaders, we’ll guess what? Many “leaders” have sharp elbows and competitively race everyone to the top, pushing people to the side as they go. They’re not exactly the “kind” sort of students Dartmouth claims they want.

My kid’s longtime classmate is a leader, she lies and cheats at every turn. Dartmouth would not know.

Begin teaching your child the lesson that life is not fair now. I see this reality hitting UMC children hardest at this juncture because their parents have not laid the appropriate groundwork early on in their lives. I remember my parents messaging to me from very early in ES that sometimes cheaters win, that sometimes the people who are better/faster/smoother talkers win, and that sometimes you will lose even when you “won” on merit. I was not taught that I deserved anything, because while I was most special to my parents, every other child was as special to theirs and I had no idea what struggles or advantages were going on with others behind closed doors.

I have made this abundantly clear to my kids. Life is not fair. There is no easy way to win everything.
Do what you have to if you want something.
Within reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

Colleges are not new at this - they know how to verify certain information, and with whom, and they know when a parent starts a non-profit in their home country, and they absolutely know when a parent is jealous of the kid down the street, who was accepted, while their kid was not. Don't dig the hole deeper for your kid, parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, the universities are lying to you. Why not lie to them?

Because it can get your kid kicked out, and/or get their diploma rescinded. I have seen it. Don't be stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I'm kind of completely turned off by the Ivies and similar right now because I picture them being completely filled with the liars, cheaters and products of extreme helicopter parents. I.e. a wholly unappealing bunch and the kids that mine have tried to avoid.

(I'm being honest here--I'm sure the next posters will say that my kids could never get in anyway---probably true--but the kids applying to Ivies from their schools are largely a group that my kids want nothing to do with because of their intense and often unethical behavior).

I went to grad school at Harvard and was an RA in the 2010s--I found the undergrad students to be generally amazing, brilliant and kind people. They are fairly earnest too. Don't believe the hype.

You would have no idea if undergrads lied in their applications just bc you were an RA.

- former RA

Also a former RA, and you are correct, second PP. Unless the students were stupid enough to brag about it, and some are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

💯

Some of these admissions people are awful at sussing out character. They want leaders leaders leaders, we’ll guess what? Many “leaders” have sharp elbows and competitively race everyone to the top, pushing people to the side as they go. They’re not exactly the “kind” sort of students Dartmouth claims they want.

My kid’s longtime classmate is a leader, she lies and cheats at every turn. Dartmouth would not know.

Begin teaching your child the lesson that life is not fair now. I see this reality hitting UMC children hardest at this juncture because their parents have not laid the appropriate groundwork early on in their lives. I remember my parents messaging to me from very early in ES that sometimes cheaters win, that sometimes the people who are better/faster/smoother talkers win, and that sometimes you will lose even when you “won” on merit. I was not taught that I deserved anything, because while I was most special to my parents, every other child was as special to theirs and I had no idea what struggles or advantages were going on with others behind closed doors.

I have made this abundantly clear to my kids. Life is not fair. There is no easy way to win everything.
Do what you have to if you want something.
Within reason.

+1
I really didn’t know cheating was so rampant tho. My DD was struggling in an AP and took a lot of quiz retakes. I asked her if a lot of people retook them and she said hardly anyone - they all have A’s. I thought “geez how could she be struggling in such an easy class?” Then she told me she was in a class group chat at the beginning of the year. Right before the first test someone posted the answers to the prior years test - she got out of that group chat immediately. She said they had all the answers to all the tests and she wanted no part of that. She struggled through with help from her teacher, who actually ended up writing me to tell me how impressed he was with how hard she worked for her grade (she ended up with a B which I was very proud of). He wrote her a college rec letter as well. I suspect he knew everyone else was cheating on some level.
It was quite a learning experience for her and me, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

Colleges are not new at this - they know how to verify certain information, and with whom, and they know when a parent starts a non-profit in their home country, and they absolutely know when a parent is jealous of the kid down the street, who was accepted, while their kid was not. Don't dig the hole deeper for your kid, parents.

Not everything is even verifiable. Just thinking about the charity work that I personally do, between a third and half don't really track who is showing up when. I do a lot of work arranging for food to be packaged at our church and then delivered to a homeless shelter we support. Kids doing it through the youth group have a sign in sheet that isn't really used, but other teens just show up with friends or families and work for a few hours. If a college called to verify hours worked or duties performed, no one would be able to give a definitive yes or no

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

💯

Some of these admissions people are awful at sussing out character. They want leaders leaders leaders, we’ll guess what? Many “leaders” have sharp elbows and competitively race everyone to the top, pushing people to the side as they go. They’re not exactly the “kind” sort of students Dartmouth claims they want.

My kid’s longtime classmate is a leader, she lies and cheats at every turn. Dartmouth would not know.

Begin teaching your child the lesson that life is not fair now. I see this reality hitting UMC children hardest at this juncture because their parents have not laid the appropriate groundwork early on in their lives. I remember my parents messaging to me from very early in ES that sometimes cheaters win, that sometimes the people who are better/faster/smoother talkers win, and that sometimes you will lose even when you “won” on merit. I was not taught that I deserved anything, because while I was most special to my parents, every other child was as special to theirs and I had no idea what struggles or advantages were going on with others behind closed doors.

I have made this abundantly clear to my kids. Life is not fair. There is no easy way to win everything.
Do what you have to if you want something.
Within reason.

+1
I really didn’t know cheating was so rampant tho. My DD was struggling in an AP and took a lot of quiz retakes. I asked her if a lot of people retook them and she said hardly anyone - they all have A’s. I thought “geez how could she be struggling in such an easy class?” Then she told me she was in a class group chat at the beginning of the year. Right before the first test someone posted the answers to the prior years test - she got out of that group chat immediately. She said they had all the answers to all the tests and she wanted no part of that. She struggled through with help from her teacher, who actually ended up writing me to tell me how impressed he was with how hard she worked for her grade (she ended up with a B which I was very proud of). He wrote her a college rec letter as well. I suspect he knew everyone else was cheating on some level.
It was quite a learning experience for her and me, too.

The easy thing to do would be to change test questions, but your kid took a hit to their GPA and learned a lesson. The cheaters got As. The teacher didn't have to take the trouble of rewriting stale tests. Everybody wins

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the thing about this that makes me mad is when college AOs say, "We have people call our school to complain than X kid got in when Y kid did not. But the thing is, they don't know why they were admitted, they didn't see their application or read their essay. We know what we're doing. We dont make mistakes." (The Dartmouth dean says this a lot).

I'd never call a school to rat a kid out, but .. no, Dartmouth, you don't know a kid better than his/her classmates do. Some of these kids have known each other for 12 years .. and you spent 12 minutes reading their app. There are certainly things on the application that their classmates don't know, of course. But they also know that little Larla was not the lead author on that journal, did not start a NFP, didn't play varsity tennis, and did not organize the clothing drive that was the essay topic. There was no clothing drive.

THat's the part that bugs me.

Colleges are not new at this - they know how to verify certain information, and with whom, and they know when a parent starts a non-profit in their home country, and they absolutely know when a parent is jealous of the kid down the street, who was accepted, while their kid was not. Don't dig the hole deeper for your kid, parents.

Not everything is even verifiable. Just thinking about the charity work that I personally do, between a third and half don't really track who is showing up when. I do a lot of work arranging for food to be packaged at our church and then delivered to a homeless shelter we support. Kids doing it through the youth group have a sign in sheet that isn't really used, but other teens just show up with friends or families and work for a few hours. If a college called to verify hours worked or duties performed, no one would be able to give a definitive yes or no

Agree.
50% of my kids EC activities (and the EC shit posted on r/collegeresults) cannot be verified….and everything is pulled together cohesively.

Nothing is that outlandish or high profile but it’s just enough….