College students are struggling with basic math,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

Yes, and their grade is padded with nonsense projects, "check the box" assignments, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in Information Technology, get paid 250K per year for the past ten years, and I have never used math beyond Algebra.  

yikes.. it's not about using the math. It's about higher level thinking. I'm sure you've read books in school by a bunch of old white dead men. Have you ever had reason to quote Shakespeare at work? No, because that's not what reading those books is about.

It's amazing to me that people don't understand the purpose of higher level math. I guess it's because a lot of people just really hate math.

-another IT person

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Yes, wasn't that the pp's point? Students who aren't actually good at a subject can take retakes galore and pad their grade with other easy, nonsense assignments so that their final grade looks good, the same as the kids that actually "get it" and get As the first time around, but that's not really reflective of their actual math knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Yes, wasn't that the pp's point? Students who aren't actually good at a subject can take retakes galore and pad their grade with other easy, nonsense assignments so that their final grade looks good, the same as the kids that actually "get it" and get As the first time around, but that's not really reflective of their actual math knowledge.

How does a grade topping out at 90% make them appear the same as the kids who get it? Look at the incoming class GPAs at any decent university - they are well above a 4 A kids whose best case is an A- (assuming they can get 100% on the retake) is going to fill out one of the shrinking schools desperate for warm tuition paying bodies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Trades require basic math these days. These kids have no economic value. Basically welfare cases in an economy that can still afford paying people for un-needed or truly necessary “jobs”.

I'm appalled at the situation here, but you can have plenty of economic value without knowing how to divide polynomials or the slope intercept formula.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Yes, wasn't that the pp's point? Students who aren't actually good at a subject can take retakes galore and pad their grade with other easy, nonsense assignments so that their final grade looks good, the same as the kids that actually "get it" and get As the first time around, but that's not really reflective of their actual math knowledge.

How does a grade topping out at 90% make them appear the same as the kids who get it? Look at the incoming class GPAs at any decent university - they are well above a 4 A kids whose best case is an A- (assuming they can get 100% on the retake) is going to fill out one of the shrinking schools desperate for warm tuition paying bodies

"Topping out at 90%" isn't universal at all schools. And even if a student does "top out" at 90% on a test retake, like I said their grades can be padded with other fluff.

The schools listed in the article that this thread is about precisely the kinds of schools that accept students with A- average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in Information Technology, get paid 250K per year for the past ten years, and I have never used math beyond Algebra.  

yikes.. it's not about using the math. It's about higher level thinking. I'm sure you've read books in school by a bunch of old white dead men. Have you ever had reason to quote Shakespeare at work? No, because that's not what reading those books is about.

It's amazing to me that people don't understand the purpose of higher level math. I guess it's because a lot of people just really hate math.

-another IT person

I'm an English Lit person, but I'll chime in here and say it's neither. I don't think students will need it because they will use it in their lives and I don't think it creates higher-level thinking in anything other than math (humans are very bad at transferring thinking about one topic to thinking about another topic).

I think that kids should take algebra (and beyond!) in high school because 1) the more you practice numeracy the better you get at it and that really is an important life skill 2) some kids will fall in love with math but they need to be exposed to different types of math for that to happen and 3) learning is inherently rewarding; it feels good to be able to solve math problems and play around with numbers and you can't do that if you're bad at it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Yes, wasn't that the pp's point? Students who aren't actually good at a subject can take retakes galore and pad their grade with other easy, nonsense assignments so that their final grade looks good, the same as the kids that actually "get it" and get As the first time around, but that's not really reflective of their actual math knowledge.

How does a grade topping out at 90% make them appear the same as the kids who get it? Look at the incoming class GPAs at any decent university - they are well above a 4 A kids whose best case is an A- (assuming they can get 100% on the retake) is going to fill out one of the shrinking schools desperate for warm tuition paying bodies

"Topping out at 90%" isn't universal at all schools. And even if a student does "top out" at 90% on a test retake, like I said their grades can be padded with other fluff.

The schools listed in the article that this thread is about precisely the kinds of schools that accept students with A- average.

And those schools need bodies. A generation ago, they were happily taking C and D students. Now they take B and C students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Yes, wasn't that the pp's point? Students who aren't actually good at a subject can take retakes galore and pad their grade with other easy, nonsense assignments so that their final grade looks good, the same as the kids that actually "get it" and get As the first time around, but that's not really reflective of their actual math knowledge.

Whether or not retakes are appropriate depends on the purpose of the assessment. Is the assessment being used to identify weak spots in the student's understanding which can then be used to improve instruction? If so, the retakes are appropriate. Or, is the assessment being used as a final determination of the student's understanding after the instruction is as complete as the instructor can make it? It would be less appropriate in that case, I'd think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Yes, wasn't that the pp's point? Students who aren't actually good at a subject can take retakes galore and pad their grade with other easy, nonsense assignments so that their final grade looks good, the same as the kids that actually "get it" and get As the first time around, but that's not really reflective of their actual math knowledge.

How does a grade topping out at 90% make them appear the same as the kids who get it? Look at the incoming class GPAs at any decent university - they are well above a 4 A kids whose best case is an A- (assuming they can get 100% on the retake) is going to fill out one of the shrinking schools desperate for warm tuition paying bodies

"Topping out at 90%" isn't universal at all schools. And even if a student does "top out" at 90% on a test retake, like I said their grades can be padded with other fluff.

The schools listed in the article that this thread is about precisely the kinds of schools that accept students with A- average.

Well, but remember, the article is based on what "some professors say."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't this post just a whole lot of Fox News nothing? Colleges have always had lower tier math classes as options for non-math types. This is nothing new and is not a signal of decline. So sick of political repackaging to whip up fear and outrage.

No. It’s a serious crisis that many colleges are experiencing, especially one like GMU, which is the most diverse institution of higher learning in the Commonwealth.

Totally. Some professors are saying!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

A 90% is still an A. And MCPS doesn't do plus or minuses, so the 90% grade looks the same as the kid who got 98%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't test optional great?

If GMU had a 91% acceptance rate then test optional has nothing to do with it.

WOW! They literally admit almost everyone who bothers to apply. Why would you expect high level math students going there.

Exactly. GMU is basically a more expensive community college.

[Anonymous]

There should be no retakes. If you don't study or bomb a test, a bad grade should be your consequence.

That's how it was in 2000 when I graduated from a HS in this area and that's how it should be now. A 4.0 or higher used to be impressive back then. Seeing the way things are in schools now with my kids, GPAs are pretty much a joke at most high schools. Retakes for tests, late work accepted without penalties, full credit given for attempts instead of credit for right answers, etc.