University of Alabama - “ peak neo-antebellum white Southern culture” - NYT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

You can stop identifying yourself - no one cares! As for being "offended" or feeling "threatened" - nope. We are simply pointing out the utter hypocrisy on the part of Tressie for going to such great lengths to disparage sororities when black sororities (and fraternities) have their OWN traditions, silly behavior, and fashion choices - all of which she completely ignores in her quest to bash white people. Why does that fact offend or threaten YOU?

FWIW, I think the entire Greek system is ridiculous, but that goes for any and all of them.

That doesn't offend or threaten me at all. I just think it misses her whole point. In reading carefully she isn't bashing white people, she is discussing the liberal/progressive urge to react in the way many posters here are accusing her of reacting. Her point isn't that she thinks sororities and fraternities as Bama (and elsewhere) should be more diverse, it is that the entire institution is what perpetuates this power structure, and how the women involved use it. It is her job/line of inquiry to study these things.

DP. Huh? Did you read the essay? Tressie's whole thesis is that these sororities perpetuate white southern culture, and her basic premise is that this culture is "bad", a premise she drums home both explicitly and implicitly (go back and read her title about "white tide" or OP's various quotes if you're still in doubt). Nowhere did she discuss liberal/progressive reactions or white fragility. And if she were challenging the entire greek institution, as you claim, then she would have taken down the black greeks too, but she manifestly did not do that.

Once again, for her thesis to have any meaning, she (or you) needs to demonstrate that black people actually want to get into these sororities/fraternities as opposed to black sororities/fraternities, but they're being excluded. I'm totally open to learning this is true, but so far nobody's given a shred of evidence. Just pointing out that these women are ridiculous--and I agree they're ridiculous--doesn't prove anything about anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's the article reprinted on another site. It really does sound ChatGPT-generated. What a whiny, petulant author. Anyone know who it is? Her name isn't mentioned on this site.

https://dnyuz.com/2023/08/22/in-alabama-white-tide-rushes-on/

Good grief. What a joyless toad that author must be. The author makes a parody of progressives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, I think rushing is weird. And I went to Smith College, which is pretty much the polar opposite of everything happening in that opinion piece.

But for this opinion piece to work for me, I'd need to know some datapoints, not just the author's opinions. In particular:

- How often do AA rush predominantly white sororities/frats? Follow-on questions: why or why not are the AA rush rates what they are?
- How often do AA rush but get turned down? This would be key to documenting the author's insinuations about systemic racism or something.

Otherwise, this article reads like "white people doing white things = bad." Yes, I think Bama Rush is weird, but it's a free country and people (a very small subset of white women) are free to be weird. But the jury's still out about whether this is part of white systemic racism, until we move past our opinions and into the facts.

PP again. Another datapoint needed to back up the author's insinuations:

- How many Bama greeks go on to rule the country or even Alabama, as opposed to going home to run dad's car dealership?

Many do. Katie Britt, for example

One data point. Pat yourself on the back?

The previous female president of Lockheed Martin. Joe Scarborough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, I think rushing is weird. And I went to Smith College, which is pretty much the polar opposite of everything happening in that opinion piece.

But for this opinion piece to work for me, I'd need to know some datapoints, not just the author's opinions. In particular:

- How often do AA rush predominantly white sororities/frats? Follow-on questions: why or why not are the AA rush rates what they are?
- How often do AA rush but get turned down? This would be key to documenting the author's insinuations about systemic racism or something.

Otherwise, this article reads like "white people doing white things = bad." Yes, I think Bama Rush is weird, but it's a free country and people (a very small subset of white women) are free to be weird. But the jury's still out about whether this is part of white systemic racism, until we move past our opinions and into the facts.

PP again. Another datapoint needed to back up the author's insinuations:

- How many Bama greeks go on to rule the country or even Alabama, as opposed to going home to run dad's car dealership?

Many do. Katie Britt, for example

One data point. Pat yourself on the back?

The previous female president of Lockheed Martin. Joe Scarborough.

So you seem to be arguing that these sororities, far from churning out MRS degrees, actually produce senators and CEOs routinely. But then again, it's just 3 people, so I'm still not convinced this is some illuminati-level conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to pay to read it No thanks

This is dcum, the majority of people here sub to NYT

Dallas urban moms is that way ➡️

DP. Not me. I subscribe to the WSJ after ditching the WaPo.

Make sure you only read the opinion section.

LOL. Yes, the paper pilloried by journalists working in the straight news section for their bathsh-t crazy editorial section since the buyout.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

I hate-read this article when it came out. I thought it was tasteless and mean-spirited.

I skimmed the end but what was mean spirited? That they made a video with rhythmless dancing as a promotion? True. Do most of them dye their hair a shade of yellow? True. Do they need to dress a certain way? True.

It’s interesting to people from different parts of the country to watch this type of thing. It’s a group of people who are creating a club for people who are just like them. And they don’t appear to associate with anyone else. Plus the school is on par with a mediocre high school so it’s easy for them to keep up with classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

Tell me you don't understand how fraternities perpetuate elitism without using the words.

How can they perpetuate elitism? You all in this elitist city are looking down on them. By this thread, being in a sorority is something to hold against someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

The power imbalance is, of course, the point that all of these triggered posters miss.

It reminds me of creepy guys claiming not to understand what’s wrong with catcalling women - to which the answer is easy: “Never say anything to a woman that you wouldn’t be comfortable hearing from a 350 pound man in a maximum security prison yard.”

Or translated to this case for the triggered OP: never celebrate a culture whose actions (genocide, normalized rape, and industrial scale cruelty for centuries in the case of antebellum southern culture) you wouldn’t want to be subject to.

[Anonymous]

Let me be very clear, I wanted nothing to do with the Greek system and I certainly don't want this for my daughter.

But as a progressive, this sort of fact-free, mean-spirited attack concerns me. Nobody thinks this tiny fraction of the country is relevant for anything much besides TicToc. And frankly if these women choose to become housewives, that's their choice.

Unfortunately this sort of nonsense fuels MAGAs. It's transparently spraying hate disguised as opinion and pseudo-scholarship. We need to talk about race, but we need to do it armed with facts and thoughtfully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

The power imbalance is, of course, the point that all of these triggered posters miss.

It reminds me of creepy guys claiming not to understand what’s wrong with catcalling women - to which the answer is easy: “Never say anything to a woman that you wouldn’t be comfortable hearing from a 350 pound man in a maximum security prison yard.”

Or translated to this case for the triggered OP: never celebrate a culture whose actions (genocide, normalized rape, and industrial scale cruelty for centuries in the case of antebellum southern culture) you wouldn’t want to be subject to.

DP. You sound triggered. What does wearing Lululemon have to do with celebrating genocide and rape? It seems like your point is that *anything* white or white-adjacent needs to be stomped out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me be very clear, I wanted nothing to do with the Greek system and I certainly don't want this for my daughter.

But as a progressive, this sort of fact-free, mean-spirited attack concerns me. Nobody thinks this tiny fraction of the country is relevant for anything much besides TicToc. And frankly if these women choose to become housewives, that's their choice.

Unfortunately this sort of nonsense fuels MAGAs. It's transparently spraying hate disguised as opinion and pseudo-scholarship. We need to talk about race, but we need to do it armed with facts and thoughtfully.

Yep this is how MGA grew

Great post

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

You can stop identifying yourself - no one cares! As for being "offended" or feeling "threatened" - nope. We are simply pointing out the utter hypocrisy on the part of Tressie for going to such great lengths to disparage sororities when black sororities (and fraternities) have their OWN traditions, silly behavior, and fashion choices - all of which she completely ignores in her quest to bash white people. Why does that fact offend or threaten YOU?

FWIW, I think the entire Greek system is ridiculous, but that goes for any and all of them.

That doesn't offend or threaten me at all. I just think it misses her whole point. In reading carefully she isn't bashing white people, she is discussing the liberal/progressive urge to react in the way many posters here are accusing her of reacting. Her point isn't that she thinks sororities and fraternities as Bama (and elsewhere) should be more diverse, it is that the entire institution is what perpetuates this power structure, and how the women involved use it. It is her job/line of inquiry to study these things.

DP. Huh? Did you read the essay? Tressie's whole thesis is that these sororities perpetuate white southern culture, and her basic premise is that this culture is "bad", a premise she drums home both explicitly and implicitly (go back and read her title about "white tide" or OP's various quotes if you're still in doubt). Nowhere did she discuss liberal/progressive reactions or white fragility. And if she were challenging the entire greek institution, as you claim, then she would have taken down the black greeks too, but she manifestly did not do that.

Once again, for her thesis to have any meaning, she (or you) needs to demonstrate that black people actually want to get into these sororities/fraternities as opposed to black sororities/fraternities, but they're being excluded. I'm totally open to learning this is true, but so far nobody's given a shred of evidence. Just pointing out that these women are ridiculous--and I agree they're ridiculous--doesn't prove anything about anything.

+100
I think the part that rubbed me the wrong way the most was that her entire diatribe was about WHITE sorority girls. Meanwhile, black sorority girls are participating in exactly the same vapid traditions, dances, dating rituals, focus on appearances, etc. Exactly. The. Same. So until she decides to include BLACK women in her “studies” on sororities, I think she’s simply full of $hit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the article reprinted on another site. It really does sound ChatGPT-generated. What a whiny, petulant author. Anyone know who it is? Her name isn't mentioned on this site.

https://dnyuz.com/2023/08/22/in-alabama-white-tide-rushes-on/

Good grief. What a joyless toad that author must be. The author makes a parody of progressives.

Spot on assessment.

[Anonymous]

Let me see if I understand. If white women complain about the coffee, they're Karens and white supremacists. If white women file their nails into almonds and wear "clean" makeup, they're white supremacists. If white women pledge sororities, they're white supremacists.

What else am I missing?

[Anonymous]

Her piece is going over so many heads. I am not sure if it is because these posters don't really get southern culture and power structures - and the author's concerns about how it may be 'whitewashed/glamorized' on TikTok (not TicToc) - or they don't believe it really exists. But it does. Cottom is at UNC. She doesn't live in New York.