University of Alabama - “ peak neo-antebellum white Southern culture” - NYT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love Tressie. She is great. Makes you think.

So how would Tressie feel about a critical and negative dissection of the Divine Nine? Who, btw, mingle with and often marry their male counterparts?

Which came first? The segregated white sororities.

Which haven't been segregated in decades. So again - try and answer the question. We'll wait.

Oh, no! She’s waiting….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the record, I think rushing is weird. And I went to Smith College, which is pretty much the polar opposite of everything happening in that opinion piece.

But for this opinion piece to work for me, I'd need to know some datapoints, not just the author's opinions. In particular:

- How often do AA rush predominantly white sororities/frats? Follow-on questions: why or why not are the AA rush rates what they are?
- How often do AA rush but get turned down? This would be key to documenting the author's insinuations about systemic racism or something.

Otherwise, this article reads like "white people doing white things = bad." Yes, I think Bama Rush is weird, but it's a free country and people (a very small subset of white women) are free to be weird. But the jury's still out about whether this is part of white systemic racism, until we move past our opinions and into the facts.

PP again. Another datapoint needed to back up the author's insinuations:

- How many Bama greeks go on to rule the country or even Alabama, as opposed to going home to run dad's car dealership?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, I think rushing is weird. And I went to Smith College, which is pretty much the polar opposite of everything happening in that opinion piece.

But for this opinion piece to work for me, I'd need to know some datapoints, not just the author's opinions. In particular:

- How often do AA rush predominantly white sororities/frats? Follow-on questions: why or why not are the AA rush rates what they are?
- How often do AA rush but get turned down? This would be key to documenting the author's insinuations about systemic racism or something.

Otherwise, this article reads like "white people doing white things = bad." Yes, I think Bama Rush is weird, but it's a free country and people (a very small subset of white women) are free to be weird. But the jury's still out about whether this is part of white systemic racism, until we move past our opinions and into the facts.

PP again. Another datapoint needed to back up the author's insinuations:

- How many Bama greeks go on to rule the country or even Alabama, as opposed to going home to run dad's car dealership?

Many do. Katie Britt, for example

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, I think rushing is weird. And I went to Smith College, which is pretty much the polar opposite of everything happening in that opinion piece.

But for this opinion piece to work for me, I'd need to know some datapoints, not just the author's opinions. In particular:

- How often do AA rush predominantly white sororities/frats? Follow-on questions: why or why not are the AA rush rates what they are?
- How often do AA rush but get turned down? This would be key to documenting the author's insinuations about systemic racism or something.

Otherwise, this article reads like "white people doing white things = bad." Yes, I think Bama Rush is weird, but it's a free country and people (a very small subset of white women) are free to be weird. But the jury's still out about whether this is part of white systemic racism, until we move past our opinions and into the facts.

PP again. Another datapoint needed to back up the author's insinuations:

- How many Bama greeks go on to rule the country or even Alabama, as opposed to going home to run dad's car dealership?

Many do. Katie Britt, for example

One data point. Pat yourself on the back?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, I think rushing is weird. And I went to Smith College, which is pretty much the polar opposite of everything happening in that opinion piece.

But for this opinion piece to work for me, I'd need to know some datapoints, not just the author's opinions. In particular:

- How often do AA rush predominantly white sororities/frats? Follow-on questions: why or why not are the AA rush rates what they are?
- How often do AA rush but get turned down? This would be key to documenting the author's insinuations about systemic racism or something.

Otherwise, this article reads like "white people doing white things = bad." Yes, I think Bama Rush is weird, but it's a free country and people (a very small subset of white women) are free to be weird. But the jury's still out about whether this is part of white systemic racism, until we move past our opinions and into the facts.

PP again. Another datapoint needed to back up the author's insinuations:

- How many Bama greeks go on to rule the country or even Alabama, as opposed to going home to run dad's car dealership?

Many do. Katie Britt, for example

I mean, every university graduates some movers and shakers. Here are just a few from UMD (scroll down): https://static.umterps.com/custompages/whymaryland/university.html. Probably some of them were in frats/sororities and some weren't.

The real questions: (1) is there racial gate-keeping at the frats--are Blacks rushing Bama frats and getting rejected disproportionately? And, if so, (2) are frats and sororities really this amazing ladder to success that non-Greek students will never be able to equal? And these are crucial points that Cottom, in the middle of all her insinuations, doesn't even try to address.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was surprised when doing a tour of places like Clemson, Wake Forest, UNC, etc. that those schools don't seem to have a heavy greek presence (and many don't have their own houses...just special dorm areas)...and they all emphasized that rush doesn't happen until Spring of Freshman year.

Is it really just the SEC that takes it to the extreme?

W&M rushes in the fall. So weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The article is just another liberal woman spouting her anger at normal girls enjoying their lives. Roll tide!

You think SEC sorority girls are "normal"

Oh hon....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

Tell me you don't understand how fraternities perpetuate elitism without using the words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I agree - many (most?) black students who decide to rush CHOOSE to rush one of the exclusively black sororities/fraternities. That's a choice they're free to make and I find it so ignorant when people complain there aren't enough black students in the traditional Greek houses. You can't force people to join them! They have other options.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

You can stop identifying yourself - no one cares! As for being "offended" or feeling "threatened" - nope. We are simply pointing out the utter hypocrisy on the part of Tressie for going to such great lengths to disparage sororities when black sororities (and fraternities) have their OWN traditions, silly behavior, and fashion choices - all of which she completely ignores in her quest to bash white people. Why does that fact offend or threaten YOU?

FWIW, I think the entire Greek system is ridiculous, but that goes for any and all of them.

[Anonymous]

You can think she is a bad writer without being offended or threatened. That essay reads like something ChatGPT spit out. I’d expect better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

NP: Here's my thought, as the parent of a DS who is the recruitment chair for his fraternity at an SEC university: the past is not the present. Past segregation is undeniably abhorrent. The CURRENT young men in any given fraternity in 2023 should not be assumed to be racist aholes.

My son's fraternity has a respectable representation of white, Asian (east and south) members. The representation of Hispanic members is consistent with the university as a whole (e.g, 11% :: 11%, or 18% :: 18%). There are a lot of men from the Middle East, too. But. They have great difficulty attracting Black pledges despite a lot of concerted and creative recruiting efforts. DS says he thinks they lose out to Alpha Phi Alpha.

While not excusing the past, I wish people wouldn't reflexively assume present Greek houses all hope to stay as white as the hack author imagines. To do so is dishonest.

I don't think she is saying that or blaming kids like your son. She is just pointing out the fact that by their very nature these organizations specifically the PR surrounding rush right now does uphold the white southern culture. I don't think that can be disputed. Try not to take it personally.

DP. Please tell us all about how the PR surrounding the Divine Nine upholds AA culture - which is fine. Here ya go:

Did Divine Nine ancestors own the ancestors of the Old Row Sororities and Fraternities? And did that antebellum culture perpetuate a black power structure that exists to this day? Not as far as I know. Her whole point is about power structures and how they are framed in Bama rush.

It doesn't make sense to me why people get so offended or feel they must deny what is so obvious as though it is something to take personally or as though they are threatened. It is not. You are not.

(former Tridelt here again.)

You can stop identifying yourself - no one cares! As for being "offended" or feeling "threatened" - nope. We are simply pointing out the utter hypocrisy on the part of Tressie for going to such great lengths to disparage sororities when black sororities (and fraternities) have their OWN traditions, silly behavior, and fashion choices - all of which she completely ignores in her quest to bash white people. Why does that fact offend or threaten YOU?

FWIW, I think the entire Greek system is ridiculous, but that goes for any and all of them.

That doesn't offend or threaten me at all. I just think it misses her whole point. In reading carefully she isn't bashing white people, she is discussing the liberal/progressive urge to react in the way many posters here are accusing her of reacting. Her point isn't that she thinks sororities and fraternities as Bama (and elsewhere) should be more diverse, it is that the entire institution is what perpetuates this power structure, and how the women involved use it. It is her job/line of inquiry to study these things.

[Anonymous]

Here is some scholarly literature on the topic:

https://www.amazon.com/Women-Discriminating-Taste-Sororities-American/dp/0820358169

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/15360695/2019/2019/165