"Not a Meritocracy"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

Only in America.

Which is where all the non-Americans seem to flock for education.

because of research $$$ not because of athletics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

Only in America.

Which is where all the non-Americans seem to flock for education.

And questioning the contribution of student athletes to the quality of our higher education is legitimate. You think athletics is important to higher education and others do not. Not giving so many sports to tennis players means more spots available to students with higher level academic interests.

American universities are so great that people want to come here for education, and then change everything that makes American universities stand out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is a meritocracy you just don’t like the measuring stick they use.

Everyone on DCUM who whines about legacies athletes and rich kids getting in “without merit” would never complain about URMs getting in without merit.

URM’s don’t get in without merit you just don’t like the measuring stick used.

And you must be new to DCUM, because people constantly whine about "unqualified" URMs taking their DC's rightful spots.

Nope not new.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

And presidents
more like 200+

The vast majority of athletes end up as normal people.

The vast majority of college students end up as normal people. The majority of women in c suites of fortune 500s are former athletes

[Anonymous]

The athletic hook is just an arbitrary preference. We live in a culture that values athletics, so we've decided an applicant with athletic ability who could compete on a college team is worth more than one with any other skill. If we lived in a country that really valued music or other performing arts, non-profit or advocacy work, then we'd see students with exceptional ability and records in these areas having an edge in college admissions and beyond. But we don't.

To be perfectly honest, beyond truly virtuosic athletic ability that would be thrilling to watch (which like 2% of college athletes have in a handful of sports that actually command a lot of interest), I don't view college athletes as contributing anything "extra" to society in a way that feels worth rewarding. Why would I care if people who are really good soccer players or fencers go to better colleges or get scholarships? I mean, good for them, but I view that as a purely personal pursuit that has next to no social value. I'd be more inclined to give admissions edges to very talented musicians or visual artists because I think the odds that they will contribute something to society that I might actual consume or benefit from are much higher. Same with someone with a demonstrated interest or ability in helping people in poverty or solving some of the social ills we are all impacted by. It just feels truly random that we've elevated student athletes in this way when there are many, many other things I value a lot more than skill and experience in athletics. And I'm a sports fan! But almost none of these kids aren't Serena Williams or Peyton Manning. In fact, Serena's a great example because outside of football, most high level professional sports to not draw on college athletes at all -- most people playing tennis on college teams were not good enough to compete professionally. And lacrosse or badminton or whatever (pretty much no one does except the kids who play these sports and their parents) and it's a mystery to me why skill in those sports would help you gain admittance to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

Only in America.

Which is where all the non-Americans seem to flock for education.

because of research $$$ not because of athletics.

They come for the whole package. You don't get to pick and choose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The athletic hook is just an arbitrary preference. We live in a culture that values athletics, so we've decided an applicant with athletic ability who could compete on a college team is worth more than one with any other skill. If we lived in a country that really valued music or other performing arts, non-profit or advocacy work, then we'd see students with exceptional ability and records in these areas having an edge in college admissions and beyond. But we don't.

To be perfectly honest, beyond truly virtuosic athletic ability that would be thrilling to watch (which like 2% of college athletes have in a handful of sports that actually command a lot of interest), I don't view college athletes as contributing anything "extra" to society in a way that feels worth rewarding. Why would I care if people who are really good soccer players or fencers go to better colleges or get scholarships? I mean, good for them, but I view that as a purely personal pursuit that has next to no social value. I'd be more inclined to give admissions edges to very talented musicians or visual artists because I think the odds that they will contribute something to society that I might actual consume or benefit from are much higher. Same with someone with a demonstrated interest or ability in helping people in poverty or solving some of the social ills we are all impacted by. It just feels truly random that we've elevated student athletes in this way when there are many, many other things I value a lot more than skill and experience in athletics. And I'm a sports fan! But almost none of these kids aren't Serena Williams or Peyton Manning. In fact, Serena's a great example because outside of football, most high level professional sports to not draw on college athletes at all -- most people playing tennis on college teams were not good enough to compete professionally. And lacrosse or badminton or whatever (pretty much no one does except the kids who play these sports and their parents) and it's a mystery to me why skill in those sports would help you gain admittance to college.

You could make the same case for every hook...."<fill in the blank> hook is just an arbitrary preference".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

Only in America.

Which is where all the non-Americans seem to flock for education.

because of research $$$ not because of athletics.

They come for the whole package. You don't get to pick and choose.

And neither does anyone else. If you accept athlete hooks then any other hook is presumptively ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s a sad state of affairs that educators are now openly saying we don’t have a meritocracy. What do we have? An oligarchy?

If has always been an oligarchy. That literally why these school have a reputation as "Elite."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your child attends a $50,000/year private high school.

Yeah and for that kind of money I'd damn well expect a leg up on college admission compared to public school kids.

Not a reasonable expectation. Look around you. When you picked the school, you probably salivated over the Ivy admit numbers and failed to consider just who was getting those slots. Now you know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

Only in America.

Which is where all the non-Americans seem to flock for education.

And questioning the contribution of student athletes to the quality of our higher education is legitimate. You think athletics is important to higher education and others do not. Not giving so many sports to tennis players means more spots available to students with higher level academic interests.

American universities are so great that people want to come here for education, and then change everything that makes American universities stand out

it is not the college athletics that make US universities stand out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why are athletes lumped in here? Don't they display merit in having to essentially meet an athletic and academic bar (even if the academic bar is a little different)? It is so strange to see people talk about a group that clearly has a long-developed and in-demand skillset in the same way as someone who was born to parents who happened to attend a college.


Because they are the ultimate hook. Even you admit it’s a different bar.

NP, but PP did not say a different bar - what she described is actually an additional bar. If a kid meets or exceeds the academic standards AND can contribute athletically, why are you suggesting that shouldn’t matter? Very often those kids have equal or better stats than the student population at large, and they are bringing a skill set that the average applicant does not have.

It is fine to question if that additional bar has any value. College sports are an American thing, unimportant to higher education anywhere else. Some think athletic skill is important and some think it is no consequence to higher education.

Some think that participation in college athletics is a better indicator of future success than an extra 75 points on the SAT

Only in America.

Which is where all the non-Americans seem to flock for education.

because of research $$$ not because of athletics.

They come for the whole package. You don't get to pick and choose.

most do not care about the athletics. a few recruited athletes, not most. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The athletic hook is just an arbitrary preference. We live in a culture that values athletics, so we've decided an applicant with athletic ability who could compete on a college team is worth more than one with any other skill. If we lived in a country that really valued music or other performing arts, non-profit or advocacy work, then we'd see students with exceptional ability and records in these areas having an edge in college admissions and beyond. But we don't.

To be perfectly honest, beyond truly virtuosic athletic ability that would be thrilling to watch (which like 2% of college athletes have in a handful of sports that actually command a lot of interest), I don't view college athletes as contributing anything "extra" to society in a way that feels worth rewarding. Why would I care if people who are really good soccer players or fencers go to better colleges or get scholarships? I mean, good for them, but I view that as a purely personal pursuit that has next to no social value. I'd be more inclined to give admissions edges to very talented musicians or visual artists because I think the odds that they will contribute something to society that I might actual consume or benefit from are much higher. Same with someone with a demonstrated interest or ability in helping people in poverty or solving some of the social ills we are all impacted by. It just feels truly random that we've elevated student athletes in this way when there are many, many other things I value a lot more than skill and experience in athletics. And I'm a sports fan! But almost none of these kids aren't Serena Williams or Peyton Manning. In fact, Serena's a great example because outside of football, most high level professional sports to not draw on college athletes at all -- most people playing tennis on college teams were not good enough to compete professionally. And lacrosse or badminton or whatever (pretty much no one does except the kids who play these sports and their parents) and it's a mystery to me why skill in those sports would help you gain admittance to college.

+ 10000000 very well stated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top privates have always been about buying access and finding ways to make kids who were no more qualified than hundreds, if not thousands, of area public school kids look better on paper. Forgive me if I can’t work up a ton of sympathy for your belated recognition that others play the game better than you do.

Curious how they do this?

Better sounding ECs, no cut sports, rigor even if there is none (notice the retreat from AP because god forbid their kids compare unfavorably to public school kids on an apples to apples comparison), grade inflation…

Your lack of knowledge about the realities of a Big 3 education is laughable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last week, the Head of School for our Big3 DC private reminded parents that college admissions is "not a meritocracy." He was not glib about this but seemed to be acknowledging it. He also said that the "college admissions system is broken.'

In the senior class this year, the kids of families with considerable money, privilege, and notoriety (as in nationally-known companies and public figures as well as 'old money') are doing really well in admissions. Really well. It's eye-opening and rather disgusting, considering what I know about the relative achievements of the kids (admittedly, I don't know all). But the overall results for the school is not good -- but for these kids, it's starkly good.

Are many schools seeing similar results -- along Wisconsin Avenue?

Ugh - I think this is our school - I missed two online lunches this week due to work commitments. I'm disappointed to hear this was a narrative.

This school cares far too much for the rich and is shockingly disinterested in others. It amazed me how few of us feel that anything we'd have to say would matter to them.

Yes, it is the school of the two Zoom lunches. One of the parents who spoke up was plain-spoken about her take on the situation. Indeed, she said what so many discuss privately. Totally agree with your assessment re caring for the rich and not really interested in the thoughts of the rest of us. Indeed, if you are a high stakes donor, your views are solicited. Not the rest of us, however. In the second Zoom, the HOS even called out as "Repeat offenders" people who tuned into both Zooms. I wonder if he understands that many of us experience the school as a black box, hence, double dip on Zooms just to know what's going on.

Boy do I hope this was not said in a negative way! You are 100% right. If I could have listened in on both, I would have. Where else does he think we are getting information? If they were more transparent, parents wouldn't need to come find it on DCUM.