"Not a Meritocracy"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

Tulane and Emory aren't comparable. And Emory 3 years ago was a 17% acceptance rate so about UVA today.

[Anonymous]

Tulane has a right to not want students who choose it as a second or third choice.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Ok. Everyone is disappointed when their hard working student does not get into a desired college. That is true across the board.

Yes, but private school parents seem to be blaming the private school, as if paying for the $$ private school should mean they should get special treatment.

I have no dog in this fight but it seems the position of the private schools is that their kids with lower GPAs are being evaluated more harshly. Like the appropriate adjustments are not being made for the rigor of the grading.

This. My kid has been in public and private. Public school was not rigorous (even though it’s one of the “top area public schools). My kid’s gpa would be much higher in public. Maybe colleges were never really distinguishing between the rigor of schools or mandatory SATs disguised this.

The public school applicants have AP scores to validate their grades. If we're talking about public school kids applying to the type of schools the OP think he kid deserves to attend, you are talking about a lot of 4s and 5s in classes with curriculums that are supposed to be consistent across all schools offering the course.

Is it MCPS where you get an 82 one semester and a 92 the next and they end up with an A for the year? That’s the crazy grade inflation I’m talking about.

Indeed, but as a PP stated, just look at their AP test scores.

Everyone games the system to their advantage. Kids will put in the minimal effort to get the A, but when it counts like the AP test scores, they will show their ability.

Lots of public school kids get majority 5s on APs and 1500+ SAT scores. No amount of grade inflation is going to help with the AP test scores.

I don’t care about AP scores. The colleges are screening by GPAs which are artificially inflated.

AP scores validate or discredit a GPA. They are the one objective measure of course rigor that colleges have. Schools can talk about how rigorous their classes are until they are blue in the face, but a kid with and A and a 5 in a similarly titled class from a no name public school is going to be viewed as having done well in a rigorous class.

There are many schools that don't do AP for many unique and valid reasons.

What valid reasons do private schools use to get rid of AP classes?

They think they can create better classes.

Yet, based on the grade inflation argument, AP exams (and classes) are really the only objective measurement of ability. Basically, private schools are getting rid of AP classes because they don't want to pay College Board. IMO, it's a financial reason. Their teachers aren't even certified teachers.

When I see job postings, I always see how the employers want certifications in abc, xyz, but I guess for private K-12, certifications need not be required. I guess it's because they don't get paid as much. Private school parents are happy to spend $$ on schools being taught by teachers who don't get paid that much and aren't certified. Then, those same parents expect high results for college admissions.

Go figure.

Lots of Towson-educated “education” majors teaching in our local public schools. The vast majority of them wouldn’t have survived or gotten into a top college or a difficult subject-matter major.

Sure, but the little kid who was educated by the Towson education major could grow up to go into a public magnet program and do exceedingly well in college.

Whereas, a private school kid whose parents spent a ton of money on K-12, and taught by a liberal arts major at some SLAC could end up at UI or Michigan State.

YMMV.

???

What's the ??? about? What major or college the teacher went to, especially in the lower grades, does not really impact what college a kid who was taught by such a teacher ends up at, nor does it indicate what their SAT scores are. So, what does it matter if a private school teacher went to a fancy school or that a public school teacher went to to Towson? At least the public school teacher is certified. Don't you look for certifications when you hire someone? Why wouldn't you want your expensive private school teacher to be certified? Seems weird.

Thanks for clarifying - I didn't understand the point.

Personally, I'm more interested if the teacher's major is in the subject they are teaching and if they continue to take CEUs, especially in the sciences.

I've flipped on this now that I have kids. Having a major gives you a great deal of knowledge about a subject 99% of which is irrelevant to a given high school course let alone elementary school. I'd rather a teacher who understands the subject matter enough to teach it and has actually learned to teach. FWIW the worst teacher that I ever had was a chemistry PhD in his first year of teaching. He had no clue how to deal with a classroom let alone impart knowledge

First, chemistry is considered the most difficult subject to teach and I have never really met anyone who is successful at it. They either hold their PhDs, but cannot convey the material. Or have teaching skills, but lack any real mastery of the subject.

Second, most teachers I know who have a major in the subject also take graduate ed classes along the way and pick up the teaching skils.

But education majors take classes IN teaching, and also continue to get trained.

I am not saying that all public education teachers are all great. My kids have had some lackluster ones for sure. But, a PP's comment that some Towson education grad would make for a lackluster teacher is wrong. They can be good teachers even if they are not smart enough to go to an Ivy.

It's much, much easier to obtain a masters in teaching/education than it is to get a PhD in Chemistry (or, frankly, even a BS in Chemistry). So, smart schools hire teachers with subject mastery and teach them how to teach, best practices, assign an experienced mentor, etc. What's extremely difficult is getting someone who has a BA in Education to then try to earn a degree in Chemistry to acquire enough understanding of the subject matter to teach it at a high level. Not going to happen.

Public HS teachers major in the subject they teach, not education. They then take an education minor or pursue a MEd for licensure. Elementary teachers major in education.

Not in every state.

Proof?

In Pennsylvania, you can be a high school math teacher straight out of undergrad with a degree in “Math Education,” for example.

https://drexel.edu/soe/resources/career-path/how-to-teacher-in-pa/

Tennessee, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Arizona, Oklahoma, Texas and California, a master’s degree is not required to be a high school teacher.

As a math major I took one upper division class dual listed as math education. It's a completely different world, they are not math majors or subject matter experts in the least. It was graduate credit for the math-education majors, and most were already teaching.

That was my point.

Whereas private school math teachers tend to have been math majors in college.

Yes, I was agreeing with you. Also, stem parents like to tell themselves public is the only reasonable option because of course titles, but I've known top math students who had incredible one-on-one mentoring at private schools, it just takes one great teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tulane has a right to not want students who choose it as a second or third choice.

True, but the post was in response to people lamenting how schools like Tulane, Emory, etc. used to be RD auto-admits for decent Sidwell students. The fact is, they probably are if those students apply ED, but now they are effectively impossible for everyone RD.

[Anonymous]

The debate about meritocracy is an old one, nothing new to this generation. Social scientists and philosophers have been debating these questions for centuries. Read John Rawls on the subject (which is also a plug for more humanities majors who have read critically about big issues).

The original question was how are Wisconsin Ave private schools doing? My kid’s school seems to be doing really well. There are kids waiting for RD for sure but a lot of happy kids with great admits you would be psyched for your kid to attend!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

private school, not controlled by the government, so they can continue to do this

Now if UVA/VaTech/UMD started doing this, then you'd have the right to complain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED[b]. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

The reigned that in this year - deferred in ED/EA to push more into RD. (still a large number though)

Deferring ED to RD means they can accept the kid in RD and have close to 100% assurance they will attend (increasing yield). IT's still a numbers game. Same way some of the Ivys defer majority of ED to RD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

private school, not controlled by the government, so they can continue to do this

Now if UVA/VaTech/UMD started doing this, then you'd have the right to complain.

Any school that accepts federal student loans, federal grant money, etc. is open to public scrutiny.

[Anonymous]

I'm amused by liberals who insist that everybody should be able to get a college education and in the same breath college Admissions at the elite schools has gotten super competitive and is broken

If you insist on making a bachelors college the new high school diploma, then yes, the desperate need to get to the "elite top 30" is going to get crazy because now that is the primary way students signal that they are smarter and different from the hordes attending college today.

That is going to result in a crazy admission process. Liberals, pick your poison. You can either have a small percentage of the population getting BS degrees as in the past or you can have a sane and relatively stress free admissions system. You cannot have both.

There market doesn't care about your vision of cosmic justice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

private school, not controlled by the government, so they can continue to do this

Now if UVA/VaTech/UMD started doing this, then you'd have the right to complain.

Any school that accepts federal student loans, federal grant money, etc. is open to public scrutiny.

How far does this extend? Do catholic hospitals not have the right to not perform certain ob/gyn procedures because of their background? Can one monitor churches if the govt partners with them to provide social services?

Just because a school gets federal funding for research, how much control do you think it gives the govt over their undergrad class selection processes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm amused by liberals who insist that everybody should be able to get a college education and in the same breath college Admissions at the elite schools has gotten super competitive and is broken

If you insist on making a bachelors college the new high school diploma, then yes, the desperate need to get to the "elite top 30" is going to get crazy because now that is the primary way students signal that they are smarter and different from the hordes attending college today.

That is going to result in a crazy admission process. Liberals, pick your poison. You can either have a small percentage of the population getting BS degrees as in the past or you can have a sane and relatively stress free admissions system. You cannot have both.

There market doesn't care about your vision of cosmic justice

Way to turn everything into politics, loser.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm amused by liberals who insist that everybody should be able to get a college education and in the same breath college Admissions at the elite schools has gotten super competitive and is broken

If you insist on making a bachelors college the new high school diploma, then yes, the desperate need to get to the "elite top 30" is going to get crazy because now that is the primary way students signal that they are smarter and different from the hordes attending college today.

That is going to result in a crazy admission process. Liberals, pick your poison. You can either have a small percentage of the population getting BS degrees as in the past or you can have a sane and relatively stress free admissions system. You cannot have both.

There market doesn't care about your vision of cosmic justice

Smart people know you can get an excellent education outside of "elite top 30". They also know only 50-60K freshman are headed to those 30 schools each year so majority will NOT get in. They will be fine.

Also, most liberals do not "want everyone to get a college degree". Most want them to continue their "education" if college is right then do that, if HVAC/Electrical/automotive repair training is right then do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

private school, not controlled by the government, so they can continue to do this

Now if UVA/VaTech/UMD started doing this, then you'd have the right to complain.

Any school that accepts federal student loans, federal grant money, etc. is open to public scrutiny.

How far does this extend? Do catholic hospitals not have the right to not perform certain ob/gyn procedures because of their background? Can one monitor churches if the govt partners with them to provide social services?

Just because a school gets federal funding for research, how much control do you think it gives the govt over their undergrad class selection processes?

+1

The benefits to the country and government from research at Stanford/MIT/CalTech/CMU/Harvard/etc is huge. If the govt had to fully pay for this research in the free market, it would cost much more (grad students are relatively cheap labor).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

private school, not controlled by the government, so they can continue to do this

Now if UVA/VaTech/UMD started doing this, then you'd have the right to complain.

Any school that accepts federal student loans, federal grant money, etc. is open to public scrutiny.

How far does this extend? Do catholic hospitals not have the right to not perform certain ob/gyn procedures because of their background? Can one monitor churches if the govt partners with them to provide social services?

Just because a school gets federal funding for research, how much control do you think it gives the govt over their undergrad class selection processes?

RIFRA and the First Amendment protect religious institution's. I'm not aware of similar protections for colleges wanting to suck up every dime possible

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flippant comments of the HOS are all the more infuriating when the fact is that most of the Big3 parents I know are not wringing their hands because their kid isn't getting into Harvard or Duke or Stanford. They are worried because their child, who has good grades, test scores, ECs, recs, etc., and who is busted their butt in school for the last four years, is getting deferred from Wisconsin, Tufts, Emory and Georgia. These are all good schools and 2-3 years ago, a strong (but not superstar) student at a Big 3 would have been an auto admit. But now these kids are being deferred. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks, but many families are really questioning whether the slog of a Big 3 high school is worth it.

Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate last year and Emory had an 11%. Both schools have had acceptance rates lower than 20% for the last 8 years. Their test score have always been high as well, and Emory is a top 20ish school. What are you talking about and why are you comparing them to Wisconsin and UGA?

The bigger issue is that schools like Tulane are taking nearly everyone ED. I believe for the 2022 HS class, 99% were admitted ED. I have heard that this year it is now like 87%. No idea what Emory's stats may be. I bet their stats looked significantly different 3+ years ago.

As a result, the ED acceptance rates are fairly high...40%+. Certain schools just decided to stop playing the yield game by filling the vast majority of their class ED.

private school, not controlled by the government, so they can continue to do this

Now if UVA/VaTech/UMD started doing this, then you'd have the right to complain.

Any school that accepts federal student loans, federal grant money, etc. is open to public scrutiny.

How far does this extend? Do catholic hospitals not have the right to not perform certain ob/gyn procedures because of their background? Can one monitor churches if the govt partners with them to provide social services?

Just because a school gets federal funding for research, how much control do you think it gives the govt over their undergrad class selection processes?

RIFRA and the First Amendment protect religious institution's. I'm not aware of similar protections for colleges wanting to suck up every dime possible

You are also not aware of how research grants work and what they are for.