What was the first Religion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

And I am familiar with credible scientific explanations for the process of what happened before the Big Bang but to me, it still not explain how something was created out of nothing … (Eg theory that Prior to the Big Bang, the universe underwent a cosmic expansion, doubling in size at least 80 times in a fraction of a second. This rapid inflation, fueled by a mysterious form of energy that permeated empty space itself, and left the universe desolate and cold.)

What was the mysterious form of energy?

I respect both science and religion as important for living well but genuinely cannot fathom how something came out of what we think of is nothing.

I also agree with scientist-philosophers who argue that random evolution cannot explain human consciousness, which is far more complex, creative and transcendent than a mind designed merely to help a physical body to survive in harsh physical environments.

It’s funny to me how you point out that there are things we cannot explain and then go ahead and claim to be able to explain them.

That right there is the difference between a theist and a skeptic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

+1

But I guess if you're uncomfortable with uncertainty you could attribute it all to "divine intervention". That's why we have religions today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

And I am familiar with credible scientific explanations for the process of what happened before the Big Bang but to me, it still not explain how something was created out of nothing … (Eg theory that Prior to the Big Bang, the universe underwent a cosmic expansion, doubling in size at least 80 times in a fraction of a second. This rapid inflation, fueled by a mysterious form of energy that permeated empty space itself, and left the universe desolate and cold.)

What was the mysterious form of energy?

I respect both science and religion as important for living well but genuinely cannot fathom how something came out of what we think of is nothing.

I also agree with scientist-philosophers who argue that random evolution cannot explain human consciousness, which is far more complex, creative and transcendent than a mind designed merely to help a physical body to survive in harsh physical environments.

It’s funny to me how you point out that there are things we cannot explain and then go ahead and claim to be able to explain them.

That right there is the difference between a theist and a skeptic

I am OK with certain levels of incertitude - gotcha games on the other hand, are rather tedious .

And I feel comfortable exercising different intellectual tools for different types of knowledge - some which require more skeptical critical thinking and others which require ontological lived experiences and common sense. None of us have a monopoly on truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

And I am familiar with credible scientific explanations for the process of what happened before the Big Bang but to me, it still not explain how something was created out of nothing … (Eg theory that Prior to the Big Bang, the universe underwent a cosmic expansion, doubling in size at least 80 times in a fraction of a second. This rapid inflation, fueled by a mysterious form of energy that permeated empty space itself, and left the universe desolate and cold.)

What was the mysterious form of energy?

I respect both science and religion as important for living well but genuinely cannot fathom how something came out of what we think of is nothing.

I also agree with scientist-philosophers who argue that random evolution cannot explain human consciousness, which is far more complex, creative and transcendent than a mind designed merely to help a physical body to survive in harsh physical environments.

It’s funny to me how you point out that there are things we cannot explain and then go ahead and claim to be able to explain them.

That right there is the difference between a theist and a skeptic

I am OK with certain levels of incertitude - gotcha games on the other hand, are rather tedious .

And I feel comfortable exercising different intellectual tools for different types of knowledge - some which require more skeptical critical thinking and others which require ontological lived experiences and common sense. None of us have a monopoly on truth.

Facts and evidence are not “gotcha games”. You don’t think they are about any other topic I bet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

No I think God is infinite not time. I am fine with describing nothing as what we currently think of as nothing.

[Anonymous]

Community service reminder - science and religion do not need to be seen in conflict -
Many profound scientific break throughs were made by extremely devout people.

I am not Catholic myself but we really do owe them a lot in terms of contributions to science. I just wish they would get their acts together with full human rights for women and GLTBQ+ people.

The Big Bang theory was partly developed by a Roman Catholic priest Georges Lemaître 1894 – 1966. He Discovered that space and the universe are expanding; discovered Hubble’s law; proposed the universe began with the explosion of a ‘primeval atom’ whose matter spread and evolved to form the galaxies and stars we observe today. He believed that there was not a conflict between his religion and his science.

Gregor Mendel 1822 – 1884.
A Roman Catholic Augustinian abbot. Founded the science of genetics; identified many of the mathematical rules of heredity; identified recessive and dominant traits.

Antoine Lavoisier 1743 – 1794.
A Roman Catholic believer in the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures. A founder of modern chemistry; discovered oxygen’s role in combustion and respiration; discovered that water is a compound of hydrogen and oxygen;

Alessandro Volta 1745 – 1827.
A Roman Catholic who declared that he had never wavered in his faith. Invented the electric battery; wrote the first electromotive series; isolated methane for the first time



Many devout Protestant scientists also made great contributions to science.

Leonhard Euler 1707 – 1783.
The son of a Calvinist pastor. Wrote religious texts and is commemorated by the Lutheran Church on their Calendar of Saints. Published more mathematics than any other single mathematician in history, much of it brilliant and groundbreaking.

James Clerk Maxwell 1831 – 1879.
An evangelical Protestant who learned the Bible by heart at age 14. Transformed our understanding of nature: his famous equations unified the forces of electricity and magnetism, indicating that light is an electromagnetic wave. His kinetic theory established that temperature is entirely dependent on the speeds of particles.

Arthur Compton 1892 – 1962.
A deacon in the Baptist Church. Discovered that light can behave as a particle as well as a wave, and coined the word photon to describe a particle of light.

Ronald Fisher 1890 – 1962.
A devout Anglican: made religious broadcasts, and wrote religious articles. Unified evolution by natural selection with Mendel’s rules of inheritance, so defining the new field of population genetics. Invented experimental design; devised the statistical concept of variance

Bernhard Riemann 1826 – 1866.
Son of a Lutheran pastor. A devout Christian who died reciting the Lord’s Prayer. Transformed geometry providing the foundation of Einstein’s theory of general relativity; the Riemann hypothesis has become the most famous unresolved problem in mathematics

Isaac Newton 1643 to 1727.
Passionate dissenting Protestant who spent more time on Bible study than math and physics. Profoundly changed our understanding of nature with his law of universal gravitation and his laws of motion; invented calculus; built the first ever reflecting telescope; showed sunlight is made of all the colors of the rainbow

Charles Townes 1915 – 2015.
A member of the United Church of Christ. Prayed daily. Wrote books linking science and religion; believed religion more important than science. Invented the laser and maser. Established that the Milky Way has a supermassive black hole at its center.

John Dalton 1766 – 1844.
A faithful Quaker who lived modestly. Dalton’s Atomic Theory is the basis of chemistry; discovered Gay-Lussac’s Law relating temperature, volume, and pressure of gases; discovered the law of partial gas pressures.

Carl Friedrich Gauss 1777 – 1855.
A Lutheran Protestant who believed science revealed the immortal human soul and that there is complete unity between science and God. Gauss revolutionized number theory and invented the method of least squares and the fast Fourier transform. His profound contributions to the physical sciences include Gauss’s Law & Gauss’s Law for Magnetism.

Charles Barkla 1877 – 1944.
A Methodist who believed science was part of his quest for God. Discovered that atoms have the same number of electrons as their atomic number and that X-rays emitted by excited atoms are ‘fingerprints’ for the atom.

Ernest Walton 1903 – 1995.
A devout Methodist, who said science was a way of knowing more about God. Winner of the Nobel Prize in Physics after he artificially split the atom and proved that E = mc2.

Florence Nightingale 1820 – 1910.
An Anglican who believed God spoke to her, calling her to her work. Transformed nursing into a respected, highly trained profession; used statistics to analyze wider health outcomes; advocated sanitary reforms largely credited with adding 20 years to life expectancy between 1871 and 1935.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

No I think God is infinite not time. I am fine with describing nothing as what we currently think of as nothing.

What do “we currently think of as nothing “?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I once read that Zoroastrianism is among the oldest religions. Interested in learning more from others who are more knowledgeable on this topic.

It's the oldest monotheistic religion. In ancient texts, they are sometimes referred to as the fire worshippers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pagans killed animals humans, in ritual fashion, with their blood being poured into bowls or onto stones. Twigs were dipped into the liquid and shaken, throwing a spray onto the onlookers and the buildings.

No thanks, that is gross and weird and disgusting.

Uhhm, Isaac was all prepared to kill his own kid like an animal. Then there was the whole wiping of blood of a lamb on your door so that the holy spirit wouldn't kill your first born. Oh, and they do have this weird broom thing in Mass where they dip it in Holy Water and flick it all over everyone. God only knows how fresh that water actually is and how many people have stuck their hands in it. And you do know that it is quite common place to assert that one is washed clean by the blood of Jesus.

Just saying, everyone's religion has some weird stuff happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

No I think God is infinite not time. I am fine with describing nothing as what we currently think of as nothing.

What do “we currently think of as nothing “?

For me it means the absence of something.

Similar to the fact that darkness is the absence of light rather than something in its own right, nothing to me is the absence of something that can be identified, defined and measured.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

No I think God is infinite not time. I am fine with describing nothing as what we currently think of as nothing.

What do “we currently think of as nothing “?

For me it means the absence of something.

Similar to the fact that darkness is the absence of light rather than something in its own right, nothing to me is the absence of something that can be identified, defined and measured.

DP here: Right, in the beginning, when the big bang happened, there was no universe, no time, no space, no matter or energy. Sounds pretty much like "nothing" to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

No I think God is infinite not time. I am fine with describing nothing as what we currently think of as nothing.

What do “we currently think of as nothing “?

For me it means the absence of something.

Similar to the fact that darkness is the absence of light rather than something in its own right, nothing to me is the absence of something that can be identified, defined and measured.

DP here: Right, in the beginning, when the big bang happened, there was no universe, no time, no space, no matter or energy. Sounds pretty much like "nothing" to me.

And no time. So nothing to measure, and nothing to come from…

….unless…..

….you presuppose a god.

Hence the fallacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

… Astro physicists can explain how the Big Bang unfolded (even if some assumptions are being turned upside down) but not how something came out nothing.

You took an otherwise intelligent post and ruined it with this first grade level rhetoric.

You dont know that time was infinite in both directions and you can’t even define nothing.

Ok wise one - explain the Big Bang to me - how did something come out of nothing … what existed prior to the Big Bang?

You have proved that you did not read the post you are responding. You have no evidence that there was anything before the Big Bang. You are making a gigantic presupposition. A bunch of them in fact, because you are assuming that there was a “before’ , that it had a cause, and that that cause was supernatural and you have no reason or evidence for any of those claims. The Big Bang might be the beginning of time.

It’s OK to say we don’t know yet. Because we don’t know yet.

.

I said that at the beginning - science cannot explain the point of the Big Bang where something came from nothing . This is a religion forum and it is also OK to express religious beliefs, which do not conflict with current scientific knowledge.

Again, you are assuming there was a “nothing “ and can’t even define it. You also assume time is infinite and there is no evidence it is. In fact that is illogical.

No I think God is infinite not time. I am fine with describing nothing as what we currently think of as nothing.

What do “we currently think of as nothing “?

For me it means the absence of something.

Similar to the fact that darkness is the absence of light rather than something in its own right, nothing to me is the absence of something that can be identified, defined and measured.

DP here: Right, in the beginning, when the big bang happened, there was no universe, no time, no space, no matter or energy. Sounds pretty much like "nothing" to me.

And no time. So nothing to measure, and nothing to come from…

….unless…..

….you presuppose a god.

Hence the fallacy.

yeah, well where did that come from?