Indiana University political science placement director writes scorched earth letter to PhD students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

See, you are nasty and bitter. No, I’m not one of the parents pushing their kids in sport. But the fact you can’t see the bitterness rolling off of you every time you post, that you have to assume anyone who sees that bitterness must be a crazed sports parent, well it just speaks volumes about who you are.

DP, WTF are you talking about? The PP is not coming off as bitter and, additionally, is entirely correct that pushing kids in sports for reasons other than the kids' enjoyment of the sport are misguided. And going to a D-3 college to play the sport is a bad choice if it means the kid is sacrificing academic quality. I don't know what it is about those unremarkable observations that causes you to perceive "bitterness."

I agree the PP doesn’t sound nasty and bitter, but disagree that D3 sports is automatically inferior. There are some very fine D3 schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

See, you are nasty and bitter. No, I’m not one of the parents pushing their kids in sport. But the fact you can’t see the bitterness rolling off of you every time you post, that you have to assume anyone who sees that bitterness must be a crazed sports parent, well it just speaks volumes about who you are.

DP, WTF are you talking about? The PP is not coming off as bitter and, additionally, is entirely correct that pushing kids in sports for reasons other than the kids' enjoyment of the sport are misguided. And going to a D-3 college to play the sport is a bad choice if it means the kid is sacrificing academic quality. I don't know what it is about those unremarkable observations that causes you to perceive "bitterness."

Injecting sports rants into irrelevant threads makes PP seem at least obsessive if not bitter

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

Potential PhD students need to ask the right questions, and so many of them are poorly advised. They might be told about how wonderful their star students are and how they land prestigious fellowships and jobs, but unless asked, PhD programs will not say how many students don't land tenure-track jobs, how many drop out, and how many never finish their PhDs. You can't make thoughtful, responsible decisions unless you have all the information you need. There are many, many 21 year olds who are still too young and uninformed about the reality of the academic job market when they apply to these graduate programs. They are smart, but not savvy consumers.

This is exactly right. They tell you “yes the job market stinks but YOU are special and different, you will surely land a TT job, don’t worry about it.”

Someone here is bitter. I’m sorry a professor stroked your ego but that’s not typical at all. They’re generally pretty letdown by students today. So maybe you really are special and they gave well-meaning but bad advice because they are happy to meet a student who is intellectually curious. Ultimately, it was your decision and maybe you were too optimistic about the field. Colleges are hiring adjuncts over professors to save money. The US no longer respects education and intellectual pursuits. It’s a shame.

[Anonymous]

That the Ph.D. market is a pyramid scheme is a well-known fact. A single Biology professor may have 20 Bio Ph.D.'s working for him at any point in time, because he needs the man hours for labor. The number of those graduating with Ph.D.s vastly over shadows the number of Ph.D.-level job openings.

At least in the natural sciences and engineering, students can go into industry still. In the humanities and social sciences, there's no industry beyond consulting + colleges are cutting Ph.D.-required positions.

Why do you think there are so many HR diversity administrators parasitizing industries? The humanities and social science majors cannot get any other job and swarm into the diversity/equity/inclusion rhetoric, getting jobs based on nepotism and personal connections. The same is true for college administrators.

The reality is far too many people are getting worthless degrees, whether at the undergraduate, masters or doctorate level, and the federal government is blindly handing out student loans to them. Or more accurately, so many people are getting worthless degrees because the federal government is blindly handing out student loans.

The federal government should only back loans for degrees that are societally needed and employable - engineering, nursing, K-12 teaching, medicine, pharmacy, law, business, natural sciences, etc.

Leave the liberal arts to those who have the liberty to pursue education without financial backing and benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

See, you are nasty and bitter. No, I’m not one of the parents pushing their kids in sport. But the fact you can’t see the bitterness rolling off of you every time you post, that you have to assume anyone who sees that bitterness must be a crazed sports parent, well it just speaks volumes about who you are.

DP, WTF are you talking about? The PP is not coming off as bitter and, additionally, is entirely correct that pushing kids in sports for reasons other than the kids' enjoyment of the sport are misguided. And going to a D-3 college to play the sport is a bad choice if it means the kid is sacrificing academic quality. I don't know what it is about those unremarkable observations that causes you to perceive "bitterness."

Injecting sports rants into irrelevant threads makes PP seem at least obsessive if not bitter

Yes, the bitterness comes through in the absolute irrelevance of her screed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even our DD who is doing a post grad work year at HYP school in chemistry says the PHD students have warned her off getting one. She doesn’t plan to go into academia if she gets one.

How will the US stay competitive with this type of system? HYP fully funds these types of PhDs!

+1. It is not just humanities PHDs who have trouble finding jobs in academia. Academia is basically run by the elderly now. Both of my parents are PhDs and professors at a university. They are 78 and 76 and have no plans to retire yet. Most of their colleagues are boomers or older. I"m a gen-xer with a PhD and am a SME at a think tank. I've never been interested in being a professor (I've done adjunct work like lots of folks in DC to pad my resume), but it is brutal out there. I think they should have mandatory retirement ages for professors (not just tenured ones, but any full-time faculty).

One reason some professors may not retire is because of university-subsidized housing. I know a tenured professor at a university in NYC who loses university-subsidized housing the moment they retire. That definitely factors into the retirement question for them, because they are NYC-born and bred. Even with the university subsidy, rent is still very pricey and they've never owned their own house or apartment so they don't have that several decades' worth of real estate investment to roll over into housing after retirement. In a different expensive city, the one we lived in before we moved back to the DMV, the university paid 1/3 of the price of our house for the tenured professor who moved in and will get that money back if/when the professor retires or moves away, but that means that the value of that professor's stake in their house is lower and they won't have the full appreciation to roll over into new housing somewhere else.

I'm not advocating for pity and sorrow for tenured professors who refuse to retire -- tenure is a fantastic gig if you can get it -- but there can be a bit of a golden handcuffs situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That the Ph.D. market is a pyramid scheme is a well-known fact. A single Biology professor may have 20 Bio Ph.D.'s working for him at any point in time, because he needs the man hours for labor. The number of those graduating with Ph.D.s vastly over shadows the number of Ph.D.-level job openings.

At least in the natural sciences and engineering, students can go into industry still. In the humanities and social sciences, there's no industry beyond consulting + colleges are cutting Ph.D.-required positions.

Why do you think there are so many HR diversity administrators parasitizing industries? The humanities and social science majors cannot get any other job and swarm into the diversity/equity/inclusion rhetoric, getting jobs based on nepotism and personal connections. The same is true for college administrators.

The reality is far too many people are getting worthless degrees, whether at the undergraduate, masters or doctorate level, and the federal government is blindly handing out student loans to them. Or more accurately, so many people are getting worthless degrees because the federal government is blindly handing out student loans.

The federal government should only back loans for degrees that are societally needed and employable - engineering, nursing, K-12 teaching, medicine, pharmacy, law, business, natural sciences, etc.

Leave the liberal arts to those who have the liberty to pursue education without financial backing and benefit.

Our world is particularly chaotic these days because this generation have expectations that are completely misaligned with reality. The reality is we are a capitalist country and this will not change anytime soon. The expectation is whatever strange feel-good non-confrontational filth that comes out from media companies these past 3 decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

Potential PhD students need to ask the right questions, and so many of them are poorly advised. They might be told about how wonderful their star students are and how they land prestigious fellowships and jobs, but unless asked, PhD programs will not say how many students don't land tenure-track jobs, how many drop out, and how many never finish their PhDs. You can't make thoughtful, responsible decisions unless you have all the information you need. There are many, many 21 year olds who are still too young and uninformed about the reality of the academic job market when they apply to these graduate programs. They are smart, but not savvy consumers.

This is exactly right. They tell you “yes the job market stinks but YOU are special and different, you will surely land a TT job, don’t worry about it.”

Someone here is bitter. I’m sorry a professor stroked your ego but that’s not typical at all. They’re generally pretty letdown by students today. So maybe you really are special and they gave well-meaning but bad advice because they are happy to meet a student who is intellectually curious. Ultimately, it was your decision and maybe you were too optimistic about the field. Colleges are hiring adjuncts over professors to save money. The US no longer respects education and intellectual pursuits. It’s a shame.

Is it the same idiot in this thread who keeps saying "you sound bitter" or is there a whole crowd of idiots who say that? Why do you feel this idiotic need to project an imaginary emotional state onto other people?

It is absolutely the case that professors are still misleading students today about the prospects of academic employment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

Potential PhD students need to ask the right questions, and so many of them are poorly advised. They might be told about how wonderful their star students are and how they land prestigious fellowships and jobs, but unless asked, PhD programs will not say how many students don't land tenure-track jobs, how many drop out, and how many never finish their PhDs. You can't make thoughtful, responsible decisions unless you have all the information you need. There are many, many 21 year olds who are still too young and uninformed about the reality of the academic job market when they apply to these graduate programs. They are smart, but not savvy consumers.

This is exactly right. They tell you “yes the job market stinks but YOU are special and different, you will surely land a TT job, don’t worry about it.”

Someone here is bitter. I’m sorry a professor stroked your ego but that’s not typical at all. They’re generally pretty letdown by students today. So maybe you really are special and they gave well-meaning but bad advice because they are happy to meet a student who is intellectually curious. Ultimately, it was your decision and maybe you were too optimistic about the field. Colleges are hiring adjuncts over professors to save money. The US no longer respects education and intellectual pursuits. It’s a shame.

Is it the same idiot in this thread who keeps saying "you sound bitter" or is there a whole crowd of idiots who say that? Why do you feel this idiotic need to project an imaginary emotional state onto other people?

It is absolutely the case that professors are still misleading students today about the prospects of academic employment.

You have no way of knowing how many professors mislead students. But you do sound angry about it. So it seems personal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That the Ph.D. market is a pyramid scheme is a well-known fact. A single Biology professor may have 20 Bio Ph.D.'s working for him at any point in time, because he needs the man hours for labor. The number of those graduating with Ph.D.s vastly over shadows the number of Ph.D.-level job openings.

At least in the natural sciences and engineering, students can go into industry still. In the humanities and social sciences, there's no industry beyond consulting + colleges are cutting Ph.D.-required positions.

Why do you think there are so many HR diversity administrators parasitizing industries? The humanities and social science majors cannot get any other job and swarm into the diversity/equity/inclusion rhetoric, getting jobs based on nepotism and personal connections. The same is true for college administrators.

The reality is far too many people are getting worthless degrees, whether at the undergraduate, masters or doctorate level, and the federal government is blindly handing out student loans to them. Or more accurately, so many people are getting worthless degrees because the federal government is blindly handing out student loans.

The federal government should only back loans for degrees that are societally needed and employable - engineering, nursing, K-12 teaching, medicine, pharmacy, law, business, natural sciences, etc.

Leave the liberal arts to those who have the liberty to pursue education without financial backing and benefit.

Our world is particularly chaotic these days because this generation have expectations that are completely misaligned with reality. The reality is we are a capitalist country and this will not change anytime soon. The expectation is whatever strange feel-good non-confrontational filth that comes out from media companies these past 3 decades.

Hollywood is swarming with nepotistic fail-sons and fail-daughters whose greatest challenge in life has been convincing their parents to attend film school over a fully paid-for law/medical school. As a result, they make the same 3 movies about "follow your dreams", "follow your passions", and some 45-year old bloke with a wife and kids who didn't follow his dreams/passions and therefore hates his life and wonders "where did it all go wrong". Or pathetically reminisces about "the best years of his life" back in college. Remember kids, life is terrible after college so make sure to shell out for the college experience!

Also too many law and medical procedurals about superstar attorneys/doctors "making a difference" leading every Harry and Sally to major in humanities/social science for law school or biology for medical school. They of course cannot get in and end up with the most worthless and unemployable bachelors degrees possible. Or worse for law, they get into a low-ranked law school and drown further in debt with an unemployable law degree. Instead they could have done something more achievable like accounting and nursing that is always in demand and easily pays 6-figures after gaining experience.

[Anonymous]

At least with law, you can make money on your own, if nothing else. Passing the Bar allows you to "practice law," job or no job, if you can get clients. Not the same with a PhD in political science.

I earned a MA at no cost and received a stipend. Went to law school at what DCUM would call a "lower tier" law school and did not pay a ton for that, either. I guess you could say that I lost 5 earning years, but not sure how much I realistically would have earned with just an undergrad degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

See, you are nasty and bitter. No, I’m not one of the parents pushing their kids in sport. But the fact you can’t see the bitterness rolling off of you every time you post, that you have to assume anyone who sees that bitterness must be a crazed sports parent, well it just speaks volumes about who you are.

DP, WTF are you talking about? The PP is not coming off as bitter and, additionally, is entirely correct that pushing kids in sports for reasons other than the kids' enjoyment of the sport are misguided. And going to a D-3 college to play the sport is a bad choice if it means the kid is sacrificing academic quality. I don't know what it is about those unremarkable observations that causes you to perceive "bitterness."

I agree the PP doesn’t sound nasty and bitter, but disagree that D3 sports is automatically inferior. There are some very fine D3 schools.

That's true. If they're going to that school because it's the best academic fit and they get to play sports there, then it's win-win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The expectation is whatever strange feel-good non-confrontational filth that comes out from media companies these past 3 decades.

Does this word-salad mean something to others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The expectation is whatever strange feel-good non-confrontational filth that comes out from media companies these past 3 decades.

Does this word-salad mean something to others?

Best description of the Media I have seen in years! I think I will borrow it.

[Anonymous]

I'd posit that a lot of the problems we have in the world today stems from de-emphasizing the liberal arts over the past generation or two. I don't think you should waste time and money getting a PhD in the subjects. But a better background in things like history, philosophy, logic, rhetoric, poetry, music, and art would create more capable citizens.

Things aren't going to end well if we're nothing but a country full of computer programmers, finance majors, plumbers, and high school dropouts.