Indiana University political science placement director writes scorched earth letter to PhD students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

I think many of us making negative comments about overproduction of Ph.D.s have Ph.D.s. My years at University of Chicago were intellectually amazing, but I was in a cohort of 50 grad students. The world needed maybe 5 of us to get advanced training in our field. I only got a Ph.D. because I didn't know what to do with myself and my college professors stroked my ego. I wanted to do a more technical grad program but they told me I was too smart for that, which would have been great advice in 1962. So I wasted time and money that I did not have to do a vanity degree. I made bad choices but those choices were based on bad advice and a truly messed up pipeline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

I think many of us making negative comments about overproduction of Ph.D.s have Ph.D.s. My years at University of Chicago were intellectually amazing, but I was in a cohort of 50 grad students. The world needed maybe 5 of us to get advanced training in our field. I only got a Ph.D. because I didn't know what to do with myself and my college professors stroked my ego. I wanted to do a more technical grad program but they told me I was too smart for that, which would have been great advice in 1962. So I wasted time and money that I did not have to do a vanity degree. I made bad choices but those choices were based on bad advice and a truly messed up pipeline.

+1 So now is our chance to be better mentors than we had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

I think many of us making negative comments about overproduction of Ph.D.s have Ph.D.s. My years at University of Chicago were intellectually amazing, but I was in a cohort of 50 grad students. The world needed maybe 5 of us to get advanced training in our field. I only got a Ph.D. because I didn't know what to do with myself and my college professors stroked my ego. I wanted to do a more technical grad program but they told me I was too smart for that, which would have been great advice in 1962. So I wasted time and money that I did not have to do a vanity degree. I made bad choices but those choices were based on bad advice and a truly messed up pipeline.

My goodness, I could have written this exactly. U of C was AMAZING and the best 9 years, intellectually, of my life. My (really top, great) research university has nothing like the intellectual atmosphere of Chicago. I don't regret the time and exploration. I probably regret pursuing academia because it is far more of a grind and far less satisfying that grad school ever was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: We suck.

The bottom line is that 99% of universities suck at placing PhDs into academic jobs. If you aren't studying at somewhere like Harvard or unless you have very interesting research that has resonated enough to get you funding, you aren't getting a tenure track job.

I have at two friends with PhD's from Harvard who are quite underemployed in their respective fields, Art History and Psychology.

I have a friend with an Art History PhD from a similarly regarded university who teaches at a high school.

Does she enjoy it? Is she happy? Did she enjoy her education? Was that degree a dream come true? If so, why does it matter where she’s teaching?

So many shallow finance bros and their mothers on this board who don’t value education for the sake of education and can’t imagine enjoying a life that doesn’t include a platinum card and a Mercedes.

WhY iS tHeRe a MeNTaL HeaLth CriSeS???

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Higher Ed is not what it used to be and it’s in part because so many people no longer value education.”

It is mostly because universities are immorally overproducing PhDs, knowing they will never get professorships, because grad students are a great source of revenue.

So PhD students are victims? They’re old enough and smart enough to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Some people love to learn. Not everyone is driven by financial ROI. Mocking their career outcome is pathetic. I’d be thrilled to learn my kids have such educated and accomplished teachers in high school. Especially if they chose to work with teenagers.

Potential PhD students need to ask the right questions, and so many of them are poorly advised. They might be told about how wonderful their star students are and how they land prestigious fellowships and jobs, but unless asked, PhD programs will not say how many students don't land tenure-track jobs, how many drop out, and how many never finish their PhDs. You can't make thoughtful, responsible decisions unless you have all the information you need. There are many, many 21 year olds who are still too young and uninformed about the reality of the academic job market when they apply to these graduate programs. They are smart, but not savvy consumers.

This is exactly right. They tell you “yes the job market stinks but YOU are special and different, you will surely land a TT job, don’t worry about it.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

+1000 Academic s is far more important than sports at schools. Core mission of the school is to educate and sports is EC activity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

See, you are nasty and bitter. No, I’m not one of the parents pushing their kids in sport. But the fact you can’t see the bitterness rolling off of you every time you post, that you have to assume anyone who sees that bitterness must be a crazed sports parent, well it just speaks volumes about who you are.

[Anonymous]

I mean it is pretty weird that the obsessed anti-youth sports posters are so crazed that they have to bring up their repetitive rants in a thread about humanities PhDs from second-tier universities. That’s some next-level perseveration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Your child was right if they are trying to go into classical music performance and are not willing to teach either public school or large amounts of private students if they are a pianist or violinist. It’s hard just to get into the auditions for jobs after collage, and then the audition committees doesn’t have to hear you past the first bar you play if they don’t like you. I have had friends practice for months, buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, and music…..then hear “NEXT!” after the first line of playing. Realism is better in this case. Everyone needs to eat.

[Anonymous]

He really went scorched earth. He suggests transferring to a top-15 department as an option, but is a "poly sci" PhD from a T-15 department really that much better in terms of job placement? I would think IU would actually have a pretty good department, which makes me wonder if this is partially driven by bitterness towards his employer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people make bad decisions. Our child was a serious musician but basically decided that she would apply only to top 10 conservatories and if she was not accepted then she would not pursue music. It's like saying law school is a waste of time if you can't get into a top law school. People do this all the time. Anyone who goes to a nonranked PhD program or even worse self-funds that PhD program has only themselves to blame. If you're not good enough to get a full ride at a top program then you're not actually good enough to be a professor. It's like being a mediocre athlete and wanting to play pro ball.

Reminds me of some friends' kids who are picking D-3 colleges because they can play sports there. I keep it to myself, but my thought is that they should just pick a college that's better academically and have fun playing intramural sports.

+100

I live in Loudoun and have seen so many parents who pushed their kids endlessly in their sport hoping against hope that they would be stars. You be stunned at the "colleges" they attended. They put so much money and effort into the sport that all they care about is that their kid can get a picture on their hs twitter page on signing day.

I agree there is overproduction of PhDs, but you just sound nasty and bitter.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm just amazed at the $ and time parents put in pushing their kids in sports not for the joy of the sport. I'd bet you're one of those parents. At your next game/meet make a statement about how impossibly hard it is to become a pro at the sport and watch how many parents lose it.

See, you are nasty and bitter. No, I’m not one of the parents pushing their kids in sport. But the fact you can’t see the bitterness rolling off of you every time you post, that you have to assume anyone who sees that bitterness must be a crazed sports parent, well it just speaks volumes about who you are.

DP, WTF are you talking about? The PP is not coming off as bitter and, additionally, is entirely correct that pushing kids in sports for reasons other than the kids' enjoyment of the sport are misguided. And going to a D-3 college to play the sport is a bad choice if it means the kid is sacrificing academic quality. I don't know what it is about those unremarkable observations that causes you to perceive "bitterness."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean it is pretty weird that the obsessed anti-youth sports posters are so crazed that they have to bring up their repetitive rants in a thread about humanities PhDs from second-tier universities. That’s some next-level perseveration.

It was a straight forward analogy. Music and sports are both pretty marginal as career choices. Going to a college to participate in its lower tier music program is a lot like going to a college to participate in its lower tier sports program. So, not weird. Unless you're crabbing about the music conservatory poster as well.