Why does no one acknowledge how overworked teachers are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one has really talked about the impact of teachers getting a pension. I don’t know DC or MD but in VA teachers will get about 50 percent of their salary after retiring. If a teacher started mid 20s, they are looking at a lifetime benefit starting in 50s. This is something private sector doesn’t get anymore anywhere.

This point doesn’t really speak to the overworked part but does speak to the underpaid part. The total lifetime compensation package of being a public sector employee (you can usually also continue to get health insurance until Medicare kicks in) is significant.

I think there is no question teachers work hard and do amazing work under stressful conditions. They are also some of the most thanked and appreciated professionals I’ve ever seen. Which is deserved. But reality check, not many other professions are getting the constant stream of gifts, accolades, weeks and days in their honor. Maybe nurses?. I just don’t see it as a profession that lacks respect and appreciation. I’m sure teachers deal with some asshats. We all do at work.

Dcum posts aside, I don’t think that many people think teachers with seniority are underpaid. At least, not as a whole. But starting salaries are a problem, particularly given the situation we’re in with higher-education funding and student loans. And the workload is a problem.

MCPS teachers start at between ~$52K and $60K, depending on their education level. Their compensation package includes excellent healthcare coverage and other benefits.

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/ersc/employees/pay/schedules/salary_schedule_current.pdf

How is this different from average starting salaries for other recent college graduates?

It isn't. Also it is in line with (or perhaps higher than) Fed jobs with a BA and little experience.

My son graduated from college two years ago. He already makes more than I do as a teacher in year 15.

I'm a lawyer and my 25yo son (Class of 2020) makes more as a software engineer than I do 30+ years out from graduating law school. So what? Compare your DC's salary to the average earnings of his peers who graduated the same year that he did.

He is an anomaly, as is my son.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a former teacher. My perspective is 1) teachers underestimate how overworked everyone else is. They think they’re uniquely working unpaid overtime when just about anyone in a salaried role is feeling the same pressure, especially if they want to be regarded as good as their job. Same as teachers. 2) A ton of this, teachers bring on themselves. Take decorating rooms. No one is making them do that. You choose to go blow $200 at Michaels and then spend a weekend taping kitschy crap to the walls.

I'm not so sure that "everyone else" is as overworked as teachers. I've had a few jobs, and nothing was as bad as teaching. I worked 60-70 hours a week as a teacher, and it still wasn't enough for the administration. They were constantly trying to make more work for us. At other jobs, you might work like that for a while, but then you move and don't work quite as much. Or at least you get paid a lot more. But in teaching, it's year after year after year - you can't move up, and your only raise is an annual COLA, if you're lucky. It's not just the hours, but also the constant nature of it, with no end or change in sight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MORE teacher whining? Really?

This is OP. Not a troll. This reply is what I'm talking about. Teachers are overworked and underpaid. But parents and administrators don't and won't acknowledge it and just tell them they're whining and demand more and more.

So, we shouldn't be surprised when good teachers leave the field and you are left with under qualified teachers teaching your children and your children get a weaker education.

Please read the post at 11:46 - do you disagree?

The teachers I know IRL seem to have little perspective on jobs that are not teaching, which is frustrating. Back in August 2020, when our school district’s plan for virtual was revealed, I told a good friend, who is a teacher, how unrealistic it was and that parents wouldn’t be able to support their kids adequately. And she told me that parents’ employers would just have to understand and give them flexibility. Say what? That’s… not how it worked.

I recall a DCUM thread not too long ago about how many hours professionals *actually* work in a week. Tons of people responded: 15 hours, 2-3 “real” work hours a day, 30 hours on a busy week, etc. Many admitted to doing no real work at their WFH jobs.

I work 65+ as a teacher. I do 30+ hours a week of presentations. I am responsible for the progress of 150 students.

You’re right. I don’t think many professions work as hard as I do. I‘m sure some do, perhaps some of you on this thread. I’m confident most don’t.

Am I complaining? No. But I’m not going to accept nonsense about how easy my job is.

8-4 M-F is no where close to 65 hours a week. Drive by most schools at 4 and the parking lots are empty.

I’m actually a midlife career changer considering TFA and elementary or middle school teaching. I’ve begun second guessing if I want to go this path, because I drive by an elementary school on my way home from my hospice care job and every weeknight excepting Fridays there are at least two dozen cars in the lot and the school lit up inside at 6:30pm when I drive by. I know they start the day around 7-7:30, so that’s an 11 hour day not counting work brought home.

I already spent a couple of decades working 70-90 hours weeks routinely as I put myself through academic training and as an attorney working in legal aid and later the criminal justice system. Weeks when I had trial prep I was easily in 100 hours territory. It’s not a good quality of life to work that many hours and my health suffered a great deal.

I need a couple more years in a government or nonprofit job to get the rest of my student loans forgiven. I am considering applying for a job as a school custodian as that seems like the only guarantee of working reasonable hours and still qualifying for PSLF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

[Anonymous]

Lower pay to increase staff? Nobody wants the low paying jobs now. Nobody wants to go into teaching and districts are bleeding teachers. The job sucks. Change that part first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lower pay to increase staff? Nobody wants the low paying jobs now. Nobody wants to go into teaching and districts are bleeding teachers. The job sucks. Change that part first.

Nobody wants the low paying jobs now but not everyone is qualified for the high paying ones. McDonald’s and CVS replaced most of their low pay cashier workers with machines. Maybe that could be part of the solution. Virtual learning and teaching software are becoming more and more commonplace. Stride K12, Connections academy, and other similar online schools are popping up every year and students are succeeding for the most part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MORE teacher whining? Really?

This is OP. Not a troll. This reply is what I'm talking about. Teachers are overworked and underpaid. But parents and administrators don't and won't acknowledge it and just tell them they're whining and demand more and more.

So, we shouldn't be surprised when good teachers leave the field and you are left with under qualified teachers teaching your children and your children get a weaker education.

Please read the post at 11:46 - do you disagree?

The teachers I know IRL seem to have little perspective on jobs that are not teaching, which is frustrating. Back in August 2020, when our school district’s plan for virtual was revealed, I told a good friend, who is a teacher, how unrealistic it was and that parents wouldn’t be able to support their kids adequately. And she told me that parents’ employers would just have to understand and give them flexibility. Say what? That’s… not how it worked.

I recall a DCUM thread not too long ago about how many hours professionals *actually* work in a week. Tons of people responded: 15 hours, 2-3 “real” work hours a day, 30 hours on a busy week, etc. Many admitted to doing no real work at their WFH jobs.

I work 65+ as a teacher. I do 30+ hours a week of presentations. I am responsible for the progress of 150 students.

You’re right. I don’t think many professions work as hard as I do. I‘m sure some do, perhaps some of you on this thread. I’m confident most don’t.

Am I complaining? No. But I’m not going to accept nonsense about how easy my job is.

8-4 M-F is no where close to 65 hours a week. Drive by most schools at 4 and the parking lots are empty.

I’m actually a midlife career changer considering TFA and elementary or middle school teaching. I’ve begun second guessing if I want to go this path, because I drive by an elementary school on my way home from my hospice care job and every weeknight excepting Fridays there are at least two dozen cars in the lot and the school lit up inside at 6:30pm when I drive by. I know they start the day around 7-7:30, so that’s an 11 hour day not counting work brought home.

I already spent a couple of decades working 70-90 hours weeks routinely as I put myself through academic training and as an attorney working in legal aid and later the criminal justice system. Weeks when I had trial prep I was easily in 100 hours territory. It’s not a good quality of life to work that many hours and my health suffered a great deal.

I need a couple more years in a government or nonprofit job to get the rest of my student loans forgiven. I am considering applying for a job as a school custodian as that seems like the only guarantee of working reasonable hours and still qualifying for PSLF.

Schools are used for everything from Girl Scout meetings to basketball practice in the evenings. Ignore the parking lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

That’s what is required now (a BA or BS).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MORE teacher whining? Really?

This is OP. Not a troll. This reply is what I'm talking about. Teachers are overworked and underpaid. But parents and administrators don't and won't acknowledge it and just tell them they're whining and demand more and more.

So, we shouldn't be surprised when good teachers leave the field and you are left with under qualified teachers teaching your children and your children get a weaker education.

Please read the post at 11:46 - do you disagree?

The teachers I know IRL seem to have little perspective on jobs that are not teaching, which is frustrating. Back in August 2020, when our school district’s plan for virtual was revealed, I told a good friend, who is a teacher, how unrealistic it was and that parents wouldn’t be able to support their kids adequately. And she told me that parents’ employers would just have to understand and give them flexibility. Say what? That’s… not how it worked.

I recall a DCUM thread not too long ago about how many hours professionals *actually* work in a week. Tons of people responded: 15 hours, 2-3 “real” work hours a day, 30 hours on a busy week, etc. Many admitted to doing no real work at their WFH jobs.

I work 65+ as a teacher. I do 30+ hours a week of presentations. I am responsible for the progress of 150 students.

You’re right. I don’t think many professions work as hard as I do. I‘m sure some do, perhaps some of you on this thread. I’m confident most don’t.

Am I complaining? No. But I’m not going to accept nonsense about how easy my job is.

8-4 M-F is no where close to 65 hours a week. Drive by most schools at 4 and the parking lots are empty.

I’m actually a midlife career changer considering TFA and elementary or middle school teaching. I’ve begun second guessing if I want to go this path, because I drive by an elementary school on my way home from my hospice care job and every weeknight excepting Fridays there are at least two dozen cars in the lot and the school lit up inside at 6:30pm when I drive by. I know they start the day around 7-7:30, so that’s an 11 hour day not counting work brought home.

I already spent a couple of decades working 70-90 hours weeks routinely as I put myself through academic training and as an attorney working in legal aid and later the criminal justice system. Weeks when I had trial prep I was easily in 100 hours territory. It’s not a good quality of life to work that many hours and my health suffered a great deal.

I need a couple more years in a government or nonprofit job to get the rest of my student loans forgiven. I am considering applying for a job as a school custodian as that seems like the only guarantee of working reasonable hours and still qualifying for PSLF.

Schools are used for everything from Girl Scout meetings to basketball practice in the evenings. Ignore the parking lot.

Why is it so hard to accept that many teachers work long hours? I really don’t get the purpose of this thread anymore. Seriously… their cars aren’t in the lot, so therefore they aren’t working? How many posters here WFH, at least a little bit?

Look, I’ll keep doing my job regardless of what the nasty people on DCUM post. I work 60 hours / week regularly, with it heading to 70 when major assignments get submitted. That’s fine. I’ll do it without complaint because it’s meaningful and purposeful work. I just don’t get why some posters find joy in insulting teachers. It’s like dealing with adolescents here on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

That’s what is required now (a BA or BS).

So many ideas when they dont even know the basic facts of teacher educational requirements. Forkin A.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MORE teacher whining? Really?

This is OP. Not a troll. This reply is what I'm talking about. Teachers are overworked and underpaid. But parents and administrators don't and won't acknowledge it and just tell them they're whining and demand more and more.

So, we shouldn't be surprised when good teachers leave the field and you are left with under qualified teachers teaching your children and your children get a weaker education.

Please read the post at 11:46 - do you disagree?

The teachers I know IRL seem to have little perspective on jobs that are not teaching, which is frustrating. Back in August 2020, when our school district’s plan for virtual was revealed, I told a good friend, who is a teacher, how unrealistic it was and that parents wouldn’t be able to support their kids adequately. And she told me that parents’ employers would just have to understand and give them flexibility. Say what? That’s… not how it worked.

I recall a DCUM thread not too long ago about how many hours professionals *actually* work in a week. Tons of people responded: 15 hours, 2-3 “real” work hours a day, 30 hours on a busy week, etc. Many admitted to doing no real work at their WFH jobs.

I work 65+ as a teacher. I do 30+ hours a week of presentations. I am responsible for the progress of 150 students.

You’re right. I don’t think many professions work as hard as I do. I‘m sure some do, perhaps some of you on this thread. I’m confident most don’t.

Am I complaining? No. But I’m not going to accept nonsense about how easy my job is.

8-4 M-F is no where close to 65 hours a week. Drive by most schools at 4 and the parking lots are empty.

I’m actually a midlife career changer considering TFA and elementary or middle school teaching. I’ve begun second guessing if I want to go this path, because I drive by an elementary school on my way home from my hospice care job and every weeknight excepting Fridays there are at least two dozen cars in the lot and the school lit up inside at 6:30pm when I drive by. I know they start the day around 7-7:30, so that’s an 11 hour day not counting work brought home.

I already spent a couple of decades working 70-90 hours weeks routinely as I put myself through academic training and as an attorney working in legal aid and later the criminal justice system. Weeks when I had trial prep I was easily in 100 hours territory. It’s not a good quality of life to work that many hours and my health suffered a great deal.

I need a couple more years in a government or nonprofit job to get the rest of my student loans forgiven. I am considering applying for a job as a school custodian as that seems like the only guarantee of working reasonable hours and still qualifying for PSLF.

Schools are used for everything from Girl Scout meetings to basketball practice in the evenings. Ignore the parking lot.

Why is it so hard to accept that many teachers work long hours? I really don’t get the purpose of this thread anymore. Seriously… their cars aren’t in the lot, so therefore they aren’t working? How many posters here WFH, at least a little bit?

Look, I’ll keep doing my job regardless of what the nasty people on DCUM post. I work 60 hours / week regularly, with it heading to 70 when major assignments get submitted. That’s fine. I’ll do it without complaint because it’s meaningful and purposeful work. I just don’t get why some posters find joy in insulting teachers. It’s like dealing with adolescents here on DCUM.

I appreciate you, PP. Thanks for all you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

That’s what is required now (a BA or BS).

So many ideas when they dont even know the basic facts of teacher educational requirements. Forkin A.

Many school systems still require a Master’s earned either prior to hiring or within their first few years of teaching. If some systems have recently changed degree requirements, a corresponding drop in pay for new hires should follow suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

That’s what is required now (a BA or BS).

So many ideas when they dont even know the basic facts of teacher educational requirements. Forkin A.

We have one teacher in our department with a BA, and that’s only because he hasn’t finished his MA yet. We’re required to continue our education. Four of us have 2 MAs, and one has a PhD. When you have to continue taking classes as a condition of employment, it is natural to pick up degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

That’s what is required now (a BA or BS).

So many ideas when they dont even know the basic facts of teacher educational requirements. Forkin A.

We have one teacher in our department with a BA, and that’s only because he hasn’t finished his MA yet. We’re required to continue our education. Four of us have 2 MAs, and one has a PhD. When you have to continue taking classes as a condition of employment, it is natural to pick up degrees.

Only 3 states require them. An addition 4 will renew your license but you dont get the highest level. Over time, most masters only equal 10k more each year. Furthermore, its usually 30-50% of teachers who have their masters. There are a few outliers with 60-70% but again, the point isnt to dumb down the teachers so they arent overworked. Its to hire more and keep the job attractive. We should want an educated public. That costs money and investment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want a job where I’m overworked but am compensated for it. My friends who aren’t teachers work a lot but make over $150k per year. I make $75k. Maybe I’d make that much if I charged for my OT. The job cannot be done with one 45 minute prep period per day. Most days I get zero planning due to meetings and other BS.

Teachers seem to have gross misunderstandings about pay in comparable professions. Most people with degrees in the arts, humanities, and social sciences aren't making $150k a year. Not even those with masters degrees. Add in the health/retirement benefits, and the ability to earn more money over the summer (or save money on child care), and teachers get compensated pretty well.

But I acknowledge the hours are long. We do need to find a way to give teachers more prep time.

This is a weird qualification. First, STEM teachers exist and don't have a completely different salary scale. Second, teaching in most states requires a professional degree or certification in *teaching*. I feel like you're trying to say teachers are only comparable to people with arts and humanities degrees, despite there not being a direct relationship, because you think both have lower earning power. Or maybe because you think teaching is an impractical career choice, which...well, isn't that exactly the problem?

Well, first of all, I think STEM and SpEd should be on different scales. It’s the arts, humanities, and social science teachers stopping that.

Second, we’re talking about the type of profession, not just the degree. Teaching, even STEM teaching, is much more closely linked to the arts, humanities, and social sciences than jobs in math, science, engineering, and medicine.

Third, often the degrees aren't even the same. And even when they are, someone going into math education is going to be taking a different set of classes than someone planning to go into an actuarial, engineering, analysis, or finance career.

Should an AP English, AP Euro History, or AP Macroeconomics teacher be paid on a lower scale than SpEd or STEM? They have considerable content knowledge that others do not have. They can also have 150 students in their advanced courses, many of whom also have 504s or IEPs that require the same support/documentation/adherence that a SpEd teacher gives to their students..

See where this leads? How do you determine who deserves higher pay?

Same way as every other job: based on the relative difficulty of finding qualified staff.

Clearly you're an English teacher and not an Econ teacher.

Pay depends on more than supply demand. Greater factors include specialization and rigor/difficulty of course study. The sciences and mathematics are well regarded as more rigorous and challenging subjects than English and social sciences. Consequently, no one expects someone with a Ph.D in History to earn more than someone with a B.E. in engineering. In fact, the former can expect around $30k starting while the latter can easily earn a six figure salary. Teachers are paid appropriately based on the relatively ease of rigor of an education degree.

If teachers are overworked, perhaps the solution is to lower degree requirements (to a B.A. degree) enabling lower teacher pay in favor of increasing teacher staff. If every classroom K-12 had an assistant or two teachers, workloads would decrease, students would get more attention and feedback, and parents would be happy. Everybody would win.

That’s what is required now (a BA or BS).

So many ideas when they dont even know the basic facts of teacher educational requirements. Forkin A.

We have one teacher in our department with a BA, and that’s only because he hasn’t finished his MA yet. We’re required to continue our education. Four of us have 2 MAs, and one has a PhD. When you have to continue taking classes as a condition of employment, it is natural to pick up degrees.

Only 3 states require them. An addition 4 will renew your license but you dont get the highest level. Over time, most masters only equal 10k more each year. Furthermore, its usually 30-50% of teachers who have their masters. There are a few outliers with 60-70% but again, the point isnt to dumb down the teachers so they arent overworked. Its to hire more and keep the job attractive. We should want an educated public. That costs money and investment.

How much of what teachers learn in college is actually used on the job? How much education do elementary school teachers really need? Some psychology, teaching philosophy, english, and a basic understanding of their course content? Most of what makes good teachers is learned from on the job training. Perhaps teachers should instead train at educational trade schools or maybe an Associate degree is all that is required.