Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP had her kid's IQ tested. That says it all.

Yes!! And it's not as if her kid was at a level where this was part of genuine GT testing or the need to find a way to challenge a truly gifted kid. The kid is not even close to that level. So that says just about everything---parent wants their kid to be something they are not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forcing your kid into the activities you’ve decided are good for them is just a recipe for breeding resentment.

My kid isn’t interested in playing sports. Should we force her? She would rather sing, draw, paint, dance, and act. She is in activities that center around those interests.

If a kid has no natural musical talent or interest in playing an instrument, it’s pointless to force it.

You seem to want to create a robot, not a person.

OP here. So many people are bringing up the robot analogy. No, I have no desire for my kid to emulate a robot. But we value physical activity in our household -- and hence, the sports requirement. I would've been just as fine if DC decided to do dance or rock climbing or cycling instead of team sports, but they have no interest in any of those activities, which is why I forced them to join a sport at their school.

We are forcing DC to do something artistic and something physical -- the fact that it ended up being a team sport and an instrument just ended up being their choice (a middle ground).

Unless you are literally compelling somebody to do something with physical force, you're not "forcing" them to do anything so you can stop using that term. Taking away privileges if you kids don't practice their instrument isn't forcing them, it's just enforcing household expectations. They could just live without the privileges if that's what they wanted to do, right?

I think that by my standards what you're doing is well within the realm of reasonable. When I read your OP I thought it wasn't, but if you're just saying "hey, ya gotta do something creative, what will it be?" and they pick? I don't think of that as your typical UMC high-intensity pushing. I think you're not being honest about the idea that it has nothing to do with college, and you're incredibly judgmental, and you don't seem to have ever had experience with a child who has actual mental health issues so you wouldn't know what it can mean to avoid pushing for the sake of a kid's mental health. But what you're doing isn't really the kind of pushing a lot of people take issue with.

Do you have just the one kid? I have two (which is not many, I know) and I have to take really different approaches with them. One will push back hard to being pushed, either with defiance or with internal shame. It's bad, and I cannot push her at all. My job as her parent is to be the one person in her world who doesn't tell her what to do (aside from brushing teeth and getting someplace on time), because she internalizes all other pressures around her so much.

DC2 is really relaxed and responds well to pushing. I actually was very hesitant to push him with because of my experiences with DC1, but I have learned that he can take it and he just needs more external motivation. Plus he asks to be pushed. The pushing comes in the form of setting reminders for him to work out and things like that. It's pretty mild. I was also pretty demanding as his homeschool teacher. I never could have done that with DC1.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Work ethic is different than having the most rigorous course load. My daughter was an average student. Nothing I could do could change that, except for spending tons of money in tutors and we did for a little, but it added stress and she only marginally improved. Terrible test taker.

My daughter has strengths that outweigh a rigorous course load any day. She is punctual, articulate, speaks well with adults, and takes her job seriously and with pride. She takes care of her appearance. She is courteous to all. She is not lazy and very driven. Just because she didn’t take AP classes means nothing about work ethic or the drive to succeed.

Why do you think this is incompatiable with being an academic high achiever?

It is not that is incompatible, but straight A’s in the highest classes is not a guarantee for success either. Don’t we all know the real-estate agent or salesperson who barely made it through high school and are very successful now?

Maybe that's the difference. I don't want my kids to grow up to real estate agent or salesperson no matter how successful they maybe.

NP. Why?

OP here. I'm not PP but I agree with them. RE agent/Sales have very little stability compared to, say, software engineers or doctors.

Since PP said "no matter how successful they may be," I don't think it was about the normal parental desire for her kid to have financial stability.

[Anonymous]

I only push my kids on life basics—so they need to learn how to write, do a lot of math, clean, be polite. I cannot push for what I see as extra items, like pursuing dance, theater, computer programming, a field of study. That’s all their choice and effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I only push my kids on life basics—so they need to learn how to write, do a lot of math, clean, be polite. I cannot push for what I see as extra items, like pursuing dance, theater, computer programming, a field of study. That’s all their choice and effort.

+1...there is a difference between pushing, nudging and encouraging. OP, think your use of the word "pushing" sent this thread sideways from the start. You should have known that word would have led to a plethora of negative comments. It takes a lot for a parent to know when each is appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted this as a comment on another thread, but I think it's odd how many posters here are averse to pushing their kid and having them develop an amazing work ethic (the #1 key to success!) all because they're worried that they'll harm their fragile snowflake's "mental health."


I demand that my kid (who is of fairly average intelligence -- 110 IQ) take the most rigorous classes offered at their school (a "W" school), try their best to get straight As (so far successful except for 1 B sophomore year), participate in a sport, play an instrument, work a (crappy, minimum wage) summer job, and be active in community service. DC doesn't want to do any of this (they are naturally very lazy), but I push them academically and extracurricularly because it forms a well-rounded human being. Not for the sake of college admissions, not for the sake of impressing an AO, but for the sake of developing a work ethic that'll launch them into success in college and beyond. Too many Americans these days lack a strong work ethic.

And for some reason, the parents on here think that all of this will destroy my kid's mental health. The best thing you can do for your kid's mental health is to build grit and resilience, as well as normalize failure. That's why I demand that my kid try their best at activities that are naturally outside of their comfort zone. It seems as though this is a common approach to successful and well-rounded kids; the ones who are the healthiest and happiest in DC's friend group are the ones who are pushed by their parents to do things outside of their comfort zone while normalizing failure and not being the best at everything you do. And the ones in DC's friend group with the most mental health issues are the ones with coddling parents who try to shelter their kid from every potential failure while not pushing them to step outside of their comfort zone.

Let me know what your kid has to say about all this when they are 24-30. 'Cause I think you're probably going to be estranged from them and wondering why.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, so there's a thin line between pushing and pushing too hard. Where do you think that line is? I don't think I'm anywhere close to it, at least compared to the parents around me (travel sports parents are the most aggressive when it comes to pushing IME). But how did you realize that you pushed too hard instead of appropriately? Did your own kids tell you? IMO kids are not the best judges of whether our parenting was appropriate or not.


How do you know? Pay attention to your kids. Some kids will tell you they don't want to do it anymore. Other kids will drag their feet and complain. Some kids erupt and get emotional. I was a crier. When I couldn't take it anymore, I burst into tears. I was put in the higher math class in MS and I kept up with the pace until 8th grade. The teacher yelled at me and I burst into tears. I went to the principal who had no issues with me moving down to the regular class. I felt immediate relief and was pretty pissed that I should've just asked to move way before I did.

If you kid asked to be put down a grade, would you do it?

Yes!! What's more important? A happy kid who is learning or one who is ahead but miserable and has other issues because of this? And might grow to hate math, whereas if they were moved back one level they might go on to love it. Life is not a race. I know plenty of PHD in science/math and people with MDs that were only slightly above average (not in any AP courses) in HS. They blossomed later.

-1

Maybe you know a few genius exceptions who did well in STEM after not doing well in college. But most prospective STEM students are weeded out because of a lack of academic preparation in HS.

I'm talking about HS and not being 1-2 grade levels ahead in MATH (or even at the younger grades).
I know plenty of STEM majors who had only regular calculus in HS recently and most didn't even get to Calculus in HS back in my day (HS class of 450, only 13 kids in our senior year regular calculus). Pushing a kid to be further advanced in math than they are ready for will not help "prepare them". Putting the kid at the appropriate level of math and letting them actually learn will do that. Plenty of engineers that only took regular Calc in HS at my DC's college. It's even possible to do that without calculus in HS (but obviously in todays world, most engineers will get to calc in HS even if not AP).

Go back to ES and I'd much rather my kid learn on grade level for math, push them a bit but don't if they don't really belong in the higher level. When my kid was in ES I volunteered in the classroom and often helped with math classes. My own kid at that level was 1 grade level ahead headed to 2 grade levels ahead by 4th grade GT. However, my kid did not do Kumon or any other tutoring pre-K or in ES. It just came naturally to my kid. However, 75% of the kids at our school in 1 grade ahead were in tutoring. And if they didn't "test" to get 1 grade ahead the parents went ballistic.

Yet, when I helped in the class room you could see who had Memorized math facts and who actually thought at the advanced level. Had 1st grade math where the kids were doing 2nd grade work. I had the "higher" 10 kids of the 30 (those the teacher thought were ahead of the other group of advanced kids)---majority in those 10 were not in tutoring. When you possed math thought problems to them most could think and figure it out. But even there there were 3 of them who were ahead of that. I recall asking the question (of 6 year olds), "what is the largest/greatest" 3 digit number you can have". I watched 3 of the kids write the answer immediately, and then watched the other 7 think and write a variety of answers. The 3 who wrote immediately all "just got it". The others didn't understand place value yet fully.

Since moved away, but I know that all 3 kids when to GT/2 grades ahead in math and eventually 2 of them went to 3 grades ahead. The other is my kid and since we moved at MS to a completely different district, I thought it too much to push for 3 grades ahead in 6th grade with all the other adjustments of MS and a big move. So my kid stayed 2 grades ahead (Calc AB in 11 and Calc BC in 12). Maybe my kid could have handled 3 grades ahead, but you know what, it could have gone terribly wrong in a new school with new people and we thought best if our kid just stayed 2 grades ahead and actually had some kids from 6/7th grade in their math class (not 8th grade only).

Did my not pushing stunt my kid? Absolutely not. But I did ensure my kid had an amazing transition to MS and new friends and will go off to college starting in Calc 3 (not Calc 4/Diff Eq). The happiness and general well being of my kid is more important that being one class ahead.

I also know one kid who hated math in ES and was on grade level, certainly not "advanced". Made the jump to 1 grade ahead in late MS. Well that kid is not heading to college and majoring in Chem Eng, accepted to several great schools. So fairly certain just being on track will work out just fine for that kid interested in STEM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

NP-So both techniques can work then...glad we settled that and don't have to have any more self-righteous rhetoric from both camps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

NP-So both techniques can work then...glad we settled that and don't have to have any more self-righteous rhetoric from both camps.[/quote

Dp I find the "pushers" more self-righteous than the non pushers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

PP you were responding to - 1 Phd in engineering and 2 medical doctors. How successful were yours?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Because my kids were not receptive to "pushing" and it backfired. Maybe your kids will practice the instrument but, mine didn't when they didn't want to play anymore. It was a huge waste of time and money. So that's one reason. Second I realized that my kids are not mini-mes and should have autonomy to chose what they want to do. And I want a relationship with them when they are older.

OP here. My kid was originally not receptive to pushing, but with appropriate punishments for not responding to my pushing (ie: taking away phone privileges, not letting them take Driver's Ed, not letting them meet up with friends on weekends, and the occasionally yelling and fighting), they became receptive. And, IME, so will 99% of kids (barring a learning disorder). Kids WILL have to be receptive if their social life is on the line.

God help any of your kids if they have a learning disorder---they would likely be a huge disappointment to you and you would not know how to deal.

Have no desire to be a "tiger parent". I'd like my kids to hit adulthood and not hate me, not wish their life was different; I want them to be happy. So forcing a kid to practice an instrument or loose their phone or not let them drive seems so controlling and unhealthy. Your kid will likely grow up and want to do things differently for their own family, but may not due to family pressures. Or they might have depression and anxiety thanks to this upbringing

OP here -- I know they won't because they know how to take responsibility for themselves instead of blaming me for all of their problems.

Of course there will always be a thumb for her to be under. She'll be the one working long hours while someone else takes credit, 'cause that's all mom ever thought of her--lazy, 110 IQ, would still be in MS math if not for OP with all the answers (and punishments) at hand.

I appreciate your confidence now while your children live under your thumb. I look forward to your post in the midlife and eldercare forum about why your adult children never come to see you once they have their own resources.

I speak from the experiences of my own friends who are now adults who had parents like you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

PP you were responding to - 1 Phd in engineering and 2 medical doctors. How successful were yours?

Dp So you are only successful if you are a doctor or engineer. How about being successful by being decent, nice human beings?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

PP you were responding to - 1 Phd in engineering and 2 medical doctors. How successful were yours?

well, I guess we define success in different ways. Different strokes. I'm not caught up with title, amount of education attained, salary, etc. I care that they are happy, that they can support themselves, that they enjoy their work, that they had the work ethic to meet their goals (whatever those goals may be) that they have solid relationships, that they use their strengths to positively impact others/their careers. One (age 23) is wrapping up graduate school in bilingual speech therapy, which is what she has wanted to do since high school. She recently accepted a job at the site where she did one of her required fieldwork experiences (large urban hospital). The other (age 25) earned a degree in marketing and information systems and works in data analytics for a large technology firm. She enjoys her work, has great friends, a loving SO, spends time with us when she can, travels often. That, to me, is the mark of "success."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We pushed our kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I didn't push my kids and they all turned out fine and successful.

I don't believe for one second that you never, ever pushed your kids at something.