Theologically speaking, why is abortion so "bad" in Christianity (compared to Judaism, Islam, etc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No one really believes that aborting a fetus is the same as murdering a child. Look at how people reacted to the little kids being shot in Uvalde. Does anyone really think that was the same as abortion? 4,000 embryos were lost due to a power outage at a fertility clinic in Cleveland in 2018, a loss greater than 9/11, but while it made the news, if anyone REALLY thought that embryos were the same as children, we would have a national day of mourning and remembrance every year. We don't, because we don't. If you were in a fertility clinic and there was a fire, would you save 100 embryos out of the freezer or a baby in the waiting room? The fetus matters, but the actual person who is actually alive matters more. The existing framework under Roe and Casey recognized that, and accorded with the moral intuitions of most people -- early on, abortion should be available with minimal restrictions. Later on, states could restrict it more. And frankly, NO ONE is having abortions for funsies in the third trimester. Those are wanted pregnancies where something went wrong. There's a severe abnormality incompatible with life, or the fetus is dying, or the woman's life or health is at risk. It doesn't matter if YOU have a "hard time accepting it," especially because you seem to have no idea about why women have abortions in the third trimester.

I firmly believed this for most of my life. I went to rallies and marches. Have you not seen churches with crosses on the lawn memorializing the number of babies aborted each day in America? This is exactly why a lot of people are so against it. Because they believe it is murder of innocents is why they bomb abortion clinics. (Which is, of course, a heinous crime and I feel it goes without saying I condemn that violence and most pro-life people I know do also, but anyway.) You don't have to understand or agree, but you don't get to say what other people believe.

DP.

But unless you would save a bunch of embryos and let a child die, you don't actually and truly believe that embryos are as much "life" as a child. They think believe that life starts at conception but they don't.

I guess that's not totally true though, some really might save the embryos.

They wouldn't survive outside the lab. They can't. Kind of the whole point.

Also, if you truly, sincerely, really believed that millions of babies were being slaughtered each year, and your reaction was to go to rallies and marches, that would be an incredibly inadequate response. And the pro-life movement used to fall all over itself to disclaim violence, but, again, if you really thought MILLIONS of BABIES were being killed, why *wouldn't* violence be justified? Killing someone who was killing hundreds of babies a year would seem to be pretty morally justified. I can look at what people say they believe, and then look at what they do, and then draw conclusions about whether they really believe what they say they believe.

I should give some credit to Fred Clark, a blogger who was raised evangelical and is a practicing Christian, who has written numerous times about the recency of the protestant anti-abortion movement (younger than the Happy Meal) and the sincerity and function of anti-abortion beliefs on his blog Slacktivist, and I highly recommend it to anyone wrestling with these questions, because he wrestles with them, with love and compassion and genuine moral seeking.

Sample columns:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2016/03/11/this-is-what-abortion-politics-is-for/
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2020/09/02/i-am-a-christian-here-is-what-i-believe-about-abortion/
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2022/06/26/flashback-sandy-hook-uvalde-a-corrosive-toxic-lie/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th Commandment - “Thou shall not kill” I believe sums it up. And don’t compare this to justified instances of self defense, etc. Seems these threads just turn into Catholic bashing. Pedophile priests and the bastards that enabled them have nothing to do with abortion and everyone knows that.

But Judaism and Islam has that commandment too.

Right - they do not all interpret it the same way. For many Christians, this Commandent is the basis on which they view abortion as a sin. If you believe life begins at conception, then the 6th Commandment would apply to abortion. This is simple, but that is the belief. That all life, from conception to natural death is sacred.

DP.

Right, so we're asking... what happened with Christian interpretation that it strayed so differently on this than it's older and younger sibling?

Why is the line drawn where it is? What is meant by "life" and "killing?" How was the line of delineation chosen, and why?

You can’t ask a Catholic they don’t know. You need to ask a historian.

Up until 1869 the Catholic Church allowed abortions up to 166 days or 24 weeks. Baptism and funeral rights were given to anybody who lost a fetus pistc24 weeks.

It wasn’t until crazy Pius IX came to power he changed a few rules. He was infallible (he really hated the Bishops telling him what he could do), Mary was a virgin, and all abortion was a sin.

So it really came down to crazy men not Jesus.

True.

I think Islam and Judaism have much stronger traditions of deep analytical dives into their faiths. Yes, still heavily misogynistic and very male dominated, but members of those faiths have schools upon schools upon books upon books to break it all down.

There doesn't seem to be as big of an emphasis on that in Catholicism. There's a strict hierarchy, and access to analysis is much more restricted.

Clearly you’ve never given any thought on this subject. Aquinas? Chesterton? Too many Jesuits that I cannot list them all. And I have great respect for scholars of other faiths but your dismissive attitude towards Catholics is pretty obvious. Whatever makes you feel better in these tough times for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is what I will never understand. There is so much nuance. So much unknown. So much "what if this?" "What would god say?" "Is this true?" "Where should the line be drawn?" We don't know, there's too many questions for us to sum it up in a neat bow and decide "this is morally good" or "this is morally bad." So the only thing we can do is say "let's ensure that this is an issue between each individual woman with her individual moral qualms (or not) and her individual story and her doctor." Isn't that the most humane, most reasonable answer to questions that are, essentially, unanswerable and certainly not universally agreeable?

One would think!

It just occurs to me that there might be a bit of a Dunning Kruger effect going on here. I would guess that the majority of all those state politicians passing these abortion restrictions have not done a deep dive into the theological, philosophical, or ethical questions surrounding abortion (and certainly they haven't done a deep dive on the medical questions). They have just been told, and they just believe, "it's killing a baby and that's wrong so we have to stop it."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what I will never understand. There is so much nuance. So much unknown. So much "what if this?" "What would god say?" "Is this true?" "Where should the line be drawn?" We don't know, there's too many questions for us to sum it up in a neat bow and decide "this is morally good" or "this is morally bad." So the only thing we can do is say "let's ensure that this is an issue between each individual woman with her individual moral qualms (or not) and her individual story and her doctor." Isn't that the most humane, most reasonable answer to questions that are, essentially, unanswerable and certainly not universally agreeable?

One would think!

It just occurs to me that there might be a bit of a Dunning Kruger effect going on here. I would guess that the majority of all those state politicians passing these abortion restrictions have not done a deep dive into the theological, philosophical, or ethical questions surrounding abortion (and certainly they haven't done a deep dive on the medical questions). They have just been told, and they just believe, "it's killing a baby and that's wrong so we have to stop it."

It’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings it was made up by a pope in the 1800’s.

[Anonymous]

The focus on Catholicism in this discussion frustrates me. Although Catholics make up half of the world's Christians, they are a minority of Christians in the U.S. Most U.S. Christians are Protestants, and beliefs vary widely. There are lots of liberal Christian denominations that do not want to ban abortion.

Also, in the early years of this country - the period SCOTUS is apparently nostalgic for - Americans were not only staunchly anti-Catholic, they were really into non-Christian deism. Some of the most famous Founders, like Jefferson and Adams, we're not Christians: they denied that Jesus was divine. So the idea that Christian or Catholic views are relevant to our political rights is really ahistoric and recent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has always puzzled me. While there are certainly strictists in Judaism and Islam, both religions tend to take a considerably more moderate attitude towards abortion and termination of a pregnancy, compared to Christianity and especially Catholicism. I don't really understand why. Yes, I know there's an emphasis on "life" but the other Abrahamic religions are more open to termination than their middle sibling. Why? How historically and theologically did this happen?

As an example, I grew up in a practicing Muslim family and practicing community. In Islam, it's commonly believed (according to various texts) that God "breathes" a soul into a fetus 120 days after conception. Before 120 days, it does not have a soul. Protection of the mother is paramount - both before AND after those 120 days, and it is undisputed that a mother/woman takes precedence in a pregnancy. Termination for her wellbeing can be done at ANY time, with medical guidance.

As for other termination reasons, I (and I know many others) were raised that it's between a woman and God. She should terminate in those 120 days, and without question if it's from rape or incest. All other reasons were at her (and her family's discretion). Obviously there are some very strict people that don't support abortion at all, but overall there still seems to be much more wiggle room with regards to human circumstances. I believe it's similar in many veins of Judaism.

Let's avoid a roe v. wade debate, and try to understand historically/theologically what happened, why things changed in the middle of the Abrahamic timeline. Anyone?

In the 1970s, we got sonograms showing a live person in the womb. We also already had stethoscopes to hear a heart beating. So, we can see and hear a baby before it's born now. Science is what changed.

If that were the case, then wouldn’t all people be on board with abortion bans? It’s still the religious conservatives that are the most fervent about it.

Yes, I am not religious. Do not believe in god. Still think abortion is wrong and should be limited. My kid was a preemie - very early 23 weeks and is doing well. It is a real person growing in there. Women need support during pregnancy and these babies deserve a right to live as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All 3 faiths, Judaism, Islam and Christianity and about subjugating women. They all preach against premarital sex

Wait, let me ask my female Episcopalian minister—no, she’s never preached against premarital sex.

yup and sex outside of marriage is a private subject, as in you cannot talk abut someone having sex outside of marriage unless you have 3 witnesses to actual penetrative sex, if you don't have the witnesses you are guilty of defamation and public indecency, if you live in an islamic state that is. I grew up in a generally gossipy muslim community and I know that people must have extramarital sex but it is literally never mentioned b/c this belief is so strong, its very taboo to discuss anyone else's sex life. TBH, muslims who are really strict about abortion are those uneducated nut jobs who imitate the Christian Right, there has been a lot of religious innovation in Muslim fundamentalist circles and most of it is copying Christian evangelist movements since they are seen as powerful and successful. Or they are just cultist like the Taliban or Daesh or Jamaat e Islaami and they make up stuff according to their leaders' whims and have personality cults and totally out of mainstream orthodoxy.

Funny you mention this because the Al Arabiya and Al Jazeera clerics greatly admired the televangelists of 1970s and 80s American TV. I think they exceeded their inspirations because clerics had a huge influence on Middle Eastern morality while televangelists did not make the same impact here. They remained in the margins of American life.

Before the 70s, the hijab wasn’t even common in the Middle East outside of Yemen and Saudi Arabia. What happened is the clerics said it should be mandatory even though the Quran doesn’t mandate it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th Commandment - “Thou shall not kill” I believe sums it up. And don’t compare this to justified instances of self defense, etc. Seems these threads just turn into Catholic bashing. Pedophile priests and the bastards that enabled them have nothing to do with abortion and everyone knows that.

But Judaism and Islam has that commandment too.

Right - they do not all interpret it the same way. For many Christians, this Commandent is the basis on which they view abortion as a sin. If you believe life begins at conception, then the 6th Commandment would apply to abortion. This is simple, but that is the belief. That all life, from conception to natural death is sacred.

DP.

Right, so we're asking... what happened with Christian interpretation that it strayed so differently on this than it's older and younger sibling?

Why is the line drawn where it is? What is meant by "life" and "killing?" How was the line of delineation chosen, and why?

You can’t ask a Catholic they don’t know. You need to ask a historian.

Up until 1869 the Catholic Church allowed abortions up to 166 days or 24 weeks. Baptism and funeral rights were given to anybody who lost a fetus pistc24 weeks.

It wasn’t until crazy Pius IX came to power he changed a few rules. He was infallible (he really hated the Bishops telling him what he could do), Mary was a virgin, and all abortion was a sin.

So it really came down to crazy men not Jesus.

True.

I think Islam and Judaism have much stronger traditions of deep analytical dives into their faiths. Yes, still heavily misogynistic and very male dominated, but members of those faiths have schools upon schools upon books upon books to break it all down.

There doesn't seem to be as big of an emphasis on that in Catholicism. There's a strict hierarchy, and access to analysis is much more restricted.

You have a really shallow understanding of Christianity. Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Bonhoeffer, too many great theologians to list here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th Commandment - “Thou shall not kill” I believe sums it up. And don’t compare this to justified instances of self defense, etc. Seems these threads just turn into Catholic bashing. Pedophile priests and the bastards that enabled them have nothing to do with abortion and everyone knows that.

But Judaism and Islam has that commandment too.

Right - they do not all interpret it the same way. For many Christians, this Commandent is the basis on which they view abortion as a sin. If you believe life begins at conception, then the 6th Commandment would apply to abortion. This is simple, but that is the belief. That all life, from conception to natural death is sacred.

DP.

Right, so we're asking... what happened with Christian interpretation that it strayed so differently on this than it's older and younger sibling?

Why is the line drawn where it is? What is meant by "life" and "killing?" How was the line of delineation chosen, and why?

You can’t ask a Catholic they don’t know. You need to ask a historian.

Up until 1869 the Catholic Church allowed abortions up to 166 days or 24 weeks. Baptism and funeral rights were given to anybody who lost a fetus pistc24 weeks.

It wasn’t until crazy Pius IX came to power he changed a few rules. He was infallible (he really hated the Bishops telling him what he could do), Mary was a virgin, and all abortion was a sin.

So it really came down to crazy men not Jesus.

True.

I think Islam and Judaism have much stronger traditions of deep analytical dives into their faiths. Yes, still heavily misogynistic and very male dominated, but members of those faiths have schools upon schools upon books upon books to break it all down.

There doesn't seem to be as big of an emphasis on that in Catholicism. There's a strict hierarchy, and access to analysis is much more restricted.

You have a really shallow understanding of Christianity. Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Bonhoeffer, too many great theologians to list here.

Great! Lol.

They still are not following Jesus’s teaching. Aquila’s believed in indulgences. Augustine in filioque. Bonhoeffer said abortion murder but not by the women but by society, also he was cool with murdering somebody.. he tried, got caught and hanged. Luther … excommunicated by the Catholic Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I blame the Catholics, who are obsessed with sex and controlling it. Celibate priests, contraception bans, etc.

Agree 100% Focus on the US Bishops.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th Commandment - “Thou shall not kill” I believe sums it up. And don’t compare this to justified instances of self defense, etc. Seems these threads just turn into Catholic bashing. Pedophile priests and the bastards that enabled them have nothing to do with abortion and everyone knows that.

But Judaism and Islam has that commandment too.

Right - they do not all interpret it the same way. For many Christians, this Commandent is the basis on which they view abortion as a sin. If you believe life begins at conception, then the 6th Commandment would apply to abortion. This is simple, but that is the belief. That all life, from conception to natural death is sacred.

DP.

Right, so we're asking... what happened with Christian interpretation that it strayed so differently on this than it's older and younger sibling?

Why is the line drawn where it is? What is meant by "life" and "killing?" How was the line of delineation chosen, and why?

You can’t ask a Catholic they don’t know. You need to ask a historian.

Up until 1869 the Catholic Church allowed abortions up to 166 days or 24 weeks. Baptism and funeral rights were given to anybody who lost a fetus pistc24 weeks.

It wasn’t until crazy Pius IX came to power he changed a few rules. He was infallible (he really hated the Bishops telling him what he could do), Mary was a virgin, and all abortion was a sin.

So it really came down to crazy men not Jesus.

True.

I think Islam and Judaism have much stronger traditions of deep analytical dives into their faiths. Yes, still heavily misogynistic and very male dominated, but members of those faiths have schools upon schools upon books upon books to break it all down.

There doesn't seem to be as big of an emphasis on that in Catholicism. There's a strict hierarchy, and access to analysis is much more restricted.

You have a really shallow understanding of Christianity. Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Bonhoeffer, too many great theologians to list here.

Great! Lol.

They still are not following Jesus’s teaching. Aquila’s believed in indulgences. Augustine in filioque. Bonhoeffer said abortion murder but not by the women but by society, also he was cool with murdering somebody.. he tried, got caught and hanged. Luther … excommunicated by the Catholic Church.

Yep, and there's still less deep exegetical work in more modern times, and much more adherence to hierarchical paradigm. The other faiths are considerably more fluid. Which can be a pro and a con, depending in circumstance.

[Anonymous]

No one really believes an embryo is the same as a baby. No one cares for mothers who lose early pregnancies the way they do moms who lose their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one really believes an embryo is the same as a baby. No one cares for mothers who lose early pregnancies the way they do moms who lose their children.

They don’t baptize or bury which shows they know it’s not a baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th Commandment - “Thou shall not kill” I believe sums it up. And don’t compare this to justified instances of self defense, etc. Seems these threads just turn into Catholic bashing. Pedophile priests and the bastards that enabled them have nothing to do with abortion and everyone knows that.

But Judaism and Islam has that commandment too.

Right - they do not all interpret it the same way. For many Christians, this Commandent is the basis on which they view abortion as a sin. If you believe life begins at conception, then the 6th Commandment would apply to abortion. This is simple, but that is the belief. That all life, from conception to natural death is sacred.

DP.

Right, so we're asking... what happened with Christian interpretation that it strayed so differently on this than it's older and younger sibling?

Why is the line drawn where it is? What is meant by "life" and "killing?" How was the line of delineation chosen, and why?

You can’t ask a Catholic they don’t know. You need to ask a historian.

Up until 1869 the Catholic Church allowed abortions up to 166 days or 24 weeks. Baptism and funeral rights were given to anybody who lost a fetus pistc24 weeks.

It wasn’t until crazy Pius IX came to power he changed a few rules. He was infallible (he really hated the Bishops telling him what he could do), Mary was a virgin, and all abortion was a sin.

So it really came down to crazy men not Jesus.

True.

I think Islam and Judaism have much stronger traditions of deep analytical dives into their faiths. Yes, still heavily misogynistic and very male dominated, but members of those faiths have schools upon schools upon books upon books to break it all down.

There doesn't seem to be as big of an emphasis on that in Catholicism. There's a strict hierarchy, and access to analysis is much more restricted.

You have a really shallow understanding of Christianity. Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Bonhoeffer, too many great theologians to list here.

Great! Lol.

They still are not following Jesus’s teaching. Aquila’s believed in indulgences. Augustine in filioque. Bonhoeffer said abortion murder but not by the women but by society, also he was cool with murdering somebody.. he tried, got caught and hanged. Luther … excommunicated by the Catholic Church.

I agree banning abortion isn’t in scripture. I was responding with to a different point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This has always puzzled me. While there are certainly strictists in Judaism and Islam, both religions tend to take a considerably more moderate attitude towards abortion and termination of a pregnancy, compared to Christianity and especially Catholicism. I don't really understand why. Yes, I know there's an emphasis on "life" but the other Abrahamic religions are more open to termination than their middle sibling. Why? How historically and theologically did this happen?

As an example, I grew up in a practicing Muslim family and practicing community. In Islam, it's commonly believed (according to various texts) that God "breathes" a soul into a fetus 120 days after conception. Before 120 days, it does not have a soul. Protection of the mother is paramount - both before AND after those 120 days, and it is undisputed that a mother/woman takes precedence in a pregnancy. Termination for her wellbeing can be done at ANY time, with medical guidance.

As for other termination reasons, I (and I know many others) were raised that it's between a woman and God. She should terminate in those 120 days, and without question if it's from rape or incest. All other reasons were at her (and her family's discretion). Obviously there are some very strict people that don't support abortion at all, but overall there still seems to be much more wiggle room with regards to human circumstances. I believe it's similar in many veins of Judaism.

Let's avoid a roe v. wade debate, and try to understand historically/theologically what happened, why things changed in the middle of the Abrahamic timeline. Anyone?

In the 1970s, we got sonograms showing a live person in the womb. We also already had stethoscopes to hear a heart beating. So, we can see and hear a baby before it's born now. Science is what changed.

If that were the case, then wouldn’t all people be on board with abortion bans? It’s still the religious conservatives that are the most fervent about it.

Yes, I am not religious. Do not believe in god. Still think abortion is wrong and should be limited. My kid was a preemie - very early 23 weeks and is doing well. It is a real person growing in there. Women need support during pregnancy and these babies deserve a right to live as well.

You aren't answering the question, though. Jews, for instance, believe abortion *should* happen if there is a thread to the health (not just the life) of the mother. But do you think that if there is a human in a woman's body, the government should be able to force her to let it stay there and grow regardless of what she wants? Just because you believe that she has to?

Or do you believe it's just morally wrong but the government doesn't have a right to mandate it? If you actually think that the government should enforce your beliefs that are just based on your personal experience, I think I might actually respect the religions point of view more.