The Dropout on Hulu (Elizabeth Holmes story)

[Anonymous]

I liked how they really take the time to show the cosplay aspect of it. Elizabeth really enjoyed playing the successful young female CEO. The green juice ritual, staying in shape, getting glammed up. Last episode, she loved designing the logo. She loves all the fun parts and none of the work.

[Anonymous]

I still don't understand how they thought they were going to get away with it. They didn't have the technology. If the show is at all accurate, it seems like Elizabeth was maybe both delusional and too uneducated to fully grasp it, but surely Sunny would have known.

It's one thing to bamboozle investors as a startup, but what did they think would happen once there were real patients relying on their tests-- and with watered down blood samples transported from hundreds of miles away??

[Anonymous]

The Elizabeth/Sunny relationship is so disturbing and they do a great job of portraying it in a way that seems both realistic, and sort of explains what happened at Theranos, but also shows the subtleties of this kind of strange power dynamic.

It's hard for me to call it an abusive relationship because Sunny really does not hold all the cards. He's definitely exploiting her as a source of power, money, and access. But she's exploiting him too. She so clearly wants/needs older men to serve as father figures and not only tell her what to do but also shoulder the responsibility as well. Repeatedly, she's in situations where it seems like she can see that she needs to come clean, or find a way to extract herself. And repeatedly, she leans on Sunny or one of the older men in her orbit to reassure her into staying the course. She is clearly incredibly insecure but derives a ton of validation from having these older men praise her and support her. So to say that Sunny, or any of these guys, is purely exploiting her would be false. She's using them too.

I love how dour and unlikeable they make the Laurie Metcalf character because (1) I think that's pretty true to life, and (2) it really highlights the degree to which Elizabeth's youth and blondness (she's honestly not even that pretty, though of course Amanda Siefried is beautiful) was a huge part of the appeal. Dr. Gardener is what "powerful women in STEM" usually actually means -- middle aged women who have worked hard for decades, sometimes making compromises with regards to family and relationships that may have hardened them or made them more jaded, who are serious and no-nonsense and very, very confident. The men love Elizabeth specifically because she's so unsure of herself, so willing to be guided by them. She's so pliable.

The whole thing is revolting. Look at what all these rich, powerful, men and this one uneducated white girl did! It's just really disgusting to watch unfold. I think this show is really good but there's an element of hate-watch for me because I feel really angry watching it all happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I still don't understand how they thought they were going to get away with it. They didn't have the technology. If the show is at all accurate, it seems like Elizabeth was maybe both delusional and too uneducated to fully grasp it, but surely Sunny would have known.

It's one thing to bamboozle investors as a startup, but what did they think would happen once there were real patients relying on their tests-- and with watered down blood samples transported from hundreds of miles away??

I think they deluded themselves, and I think Elizabeth, in particular, convinced herself that they really were doing something groundbreaking and they would figure it out eventually. And while I think you are right that Sunny was much more aware of the degree to which they were cheating, I also think his lack of knowledge in this specific area of science allowed him to also convince himself that some of the more questionable things they did (specifically stuff like running the tests on Siemens machines, or falsifying test results) were part of a justifiable tech development process.

Not to take the heat of Elizabeth and Sunny (who are clearly very culpable) but the culture of venture capital investment is a huge part of it. Start-ups begin with mostly an idea, maybe a prototype, and very determined leadership. But they need investment dollars to hire out and really develop the idea -- that's expected. But of course the minute you get VC money, pressure begins to deliver on the promise. It absolutely creates a situation ripe for lying and cheating. Companies don't want to lose their funding and feel pressure to make it look like they are moving more quickly than they might actually be. The show does a good job, I think, of showing how these moving parts create a rock and a hard place -- there's huge pressure for Theranos to get a big contract (first they are pushing for a pharmaceutical contract and then they pivot to Walgreens) to prove they are viable to the investors, but what they really need to be able to do is say "actually the tech isn't there which is why we are struggling with getting these contracts -- we need billions more in funding and probably another 10-20 years to get to where we want to be." But of course no investor is going to stay on the hook for that because they want results now.

People like to laud venture capital as being great for entrepreneurship and invention, but it's not really. It takes the focus of the technology and invention and puts it on money. A development like what Theranos promised probably cannot be developed in a VC environment. It pretty much has to be supported by some combination of government funding, academic support (because of how long it will take) and private funding. Which is how most major medical breakthroughs happen anyway. Silicon Valley got cocky in thinking they could do it better or faster.

[Anonymous]

I don’t understand the Seimens machines. Does that mean that there was already the technology to do what she claimed she was going to do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I still don't understand how they thought they were going to get away with it. They didn't have the technology. If the show is at all accurate, it seems like Elizabeth was maybe both delusional and too uneducated to fully grasp it, but surely Sunny would have known.

It's one thing to bamboozle investors as a startup, but what did they think would happen once there were real patients relying on their tests-- and with watered down blood samples transported from hundreds of miles away??

They thought they were close to having the technology. They just had to keep funding long enough for their scientists to "work out the kinks". She didn't believe the technology was 10/20 years away. She thought it was immanent, and she convinced others of that.

[Anonymous]

Bad Blood (which I enjoyed) was not sympathetic to her at all. Is this more sympathetic?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the Seimens machines. Does that mean that there was already the technology to do what she claimed she was going to do?

The Siemens technology is how the blood tests are currently done by using the vials of blood they draw when you are having blood tests.

Theranos wanted to design a machine that could run all of the tests on a drop of blood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bad Blood (which I enjoyed) was not sympathetic to her at all. Is this more sympathetic?

I wouldn't say it's sympathetic, but so far they've done a nice job of showing how she wasn't alone in all of the missteps. There were plenty of people who didn't ask the right questions, weren't willing to listen to the experts, etc.

They were blinded by her youth and bullshit.

I need to watch Bad Blood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the Seimens machines. Does that mean that there was already the technology to do what she claimed she was going to do?

Yes, there are machines that run tests on blood samples, but the machines don't run hundreds of tests on a drop of blood, which is what Holmes promised.

"The current top-of-the-line blood analyzer, the Siemens Dimension 1500, is capable of performing 100 totally automated simultaneous assays, weighs a bit more than a ton, has the footprint of a compact car and has a price of about $350,000."

[Anonymous]

I agree with and appreciate all of these posts!

Can someone explain to me why Elizabeth and Sunny's relationship was such a secret? That's the way Elizabeth wanted it? I think that's kind of gross. That maybe she was embarrassed to be with this older, Indian man, but happy to take his money, have him bail her out, and lean on endlessly.

Also, is there any truth to her being relieved, maybe even happy, that Ian committed suicide? (as portrayed on the show)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with and appreciate all of these posts!

Can someone explain to me why Elizabeth and Sunny's relationship was such a secret? That's the way Elizabeth wanted it? I think that's kind of gross. That maybe she was embarrassed to be with this older, Indian man, but happy to take his money, have him bail her out, and lean on endlessly.

Also, is there any truth to her being relieved, maybe even happy, that Ian committed suicide? (as portrayed on the show)

I mean, it's very hard to know what Elizabeth actually thought or felt through all of this. I listened to the podcast the show is based on, and it's all speculation in that respect. Especially when you consider that the people who exposed Theranos and Elizabeth mostly did have an axe to grind with her. However, I do think the show does a good job of imagining what might have been going through her head, trying to provide some kind of context.

According to podcast, her relationship with Sunny was more of an "open secret" than something she was actively trying to conceal. People at Theranos knew and others knew but she had an aura of "specialness" anyway because of her profile and CEO status. The stuff about him not going to events with her is, I think, as much a reflection of the fact that their relationship was just weird and unequal (and they were both socially odd and uncomfortable) as it was an effort to hide their relationship. But there were definitely people at Theranos and outside Theranos who knew. Just not everyone and not something that was made obvious to others.

The podcast and the show do talk about how it was really never clear how much of their relationship was based on emotion and how much based on business. Once she pulls him into Theranos and takes his money, it's honestly not clear if he's her boyfriend or her benefactor or her boss or what. I don't think they even knew. So again, less a concerted effort to trick people and more just them not being able to be honest because they couldn't explain it clearly either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with and appreciate all of these posts!

Can someone explain to me why Elizabeth and Sunny's relationship was such a secret? That's the way Elizabeth wanted it? I think that's kind of gross. That maybe she was embarrassed to be with this older, Indian man, but happy to take his money, have him bail her out, and lean on endlessly.

Also, is there any truth to her being relieved, maybe even happy, that Ian committed suicide? (as portrayed on the show)

I mean, it's very hard to know what Elizabeth actually thought or felt through all of this. I listened to the podcast the show is based on, and it's all speculation in that respect. Especially when you consider that the people who exposed Theranos and Elizabeth mostly did have an axe to grind with her. However, I do think the show does a good job of imagining what might have been going through her head, trying to provide some kind of context.

According to podcast, her relationship with Sunny was more of an "open secret" than something she was actively trying to conceal. People at Theranos knew and others knew but she had an aura of "specialness" anyway because of her profile and CEO status. The stuff about him not going to events with her is, I think, as much a reflection of the fact that their relationship was just weird and unequal (and they were both socially odd and uncomfortable) as it was an effort to hide their relationship. But there were definitely people at Theranos and outside Theranos who knew. Just not everyone and not something that was made obvious to others.

The podcast and the show do talk about how it was really never clear how much of their relationship was based on emotion and how much based on business. Once she pulls him into Theranos and takes his money, it's honestly not clear if he's her boyfriend or her benefactor or her boss or what. I don't think they even knew. So again, less a concerted effort to trick people and more just them not being able to be honest because they couldn't explain it clearly either.

Very interesting, thank you for the insights!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the Seimens machines. Does that mean that there was already the technology to do what she claimed she was going to do?

Both the podcast and the book (Bad Blood) gets into this much more. As others explained, the Siemens machines had been around for a while and that was the tech Theranos was trying to replace -- they were trying to create a more efficient, portable device so that people who had to have these tests wouldn't have to go to a testing facility and produce several vials of blood. If you've ever had your blood drawn for tests like this, you know what a burden it is. Whenever I have to get more than one vial drawn, I pretty much have to calculate an extra hour into the appointment because I will need to recover. It sucks.

The original idea at Theranos was actually to be able to sell these machines directly to doctor's offices or even individuals to keep in their homes if they needed blood draws a lot or had a condition that required certain tests to be run frequently. Most blood tests are sent to labs who use those Siemens machines, and this adds to the time it takes to get results, as well as cost and insurance issues because the labs will bill your insurance separately from the doctor's office where the blood was taken and sometimes the insurance company doesn't cover the particular lab... it's a mess and it actually makes sense that someone would want to find a way to make this process better.

In the podcast and book they really get into why Theranos using the Siemens machines was a huge deal. When they set up the Walgreens partnership, patients reported these weird experience with results from the pin prick tests. But then Theranos would sometimes have them do a full blood draw (not the promised pin prick) and of course patients noticed this because that was the whole point -- I don't have to sit here and wait for the person to find a vein and draw a full vial and maybe have to do a re-draw if the first vein doesn't produce enough, etc. It turns out Theranos was running these draw through the Siemens machines. And yes, it was in part as a quality control measure, but since the Theranos machines straight up did not work, the outcome was that basically they were just using the Siemens machines for the tests.

And keep in mind that the blood tests were never supposed to leave Walgreens at all. The point was that the Theranos machines were supposed to be onsite. But since those machines didn't work, Theranos would set up theses elaborate systems to send the blood to their own testing facility, or sometimes they'd even pay to send them to a 3rd party lab, and then report the results back. But it would take days, not minutes as promised.

I mean, it was just incredibly obvious from the minute they launched in Walgreens (and at that cancer facility in Arizona) that they didn't have the technology. But people cut them slack because the promise of what they were suggesting was really, really valuable to patients and doctors, and they were willing (at first) to let them "iron out the kinks". What was unforgivable is that these were not kinks, the machines never worked, they knew they never worked, and they straight up lied to sick people and their doctors in ways that were truly damaging. It's messed up.

[Anonymous]

OK but did Elizabeth have a scientific concept to support the ability to do this?

Anything more than- wouldn't it be cool if it was one drop of a blood into a machine that super analyzed it immediately?

If Siemens could shrink and speed up their machines, they would have. What was the breakthough she was bringing to the table?

I feel like my 9 year old could come up with the concept. I realize I'm being snarky here but really I'm totally ignorant about all of this I just don't get it.