It's (finally) time for reparations. It's time for the US to pay its debt.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

Yes, but from a legal standpoint, you can't point to a discrete act by the US Government that justifies reparations for every single black American.

Reparations aren't intended for "every single black American".

That's not what my black friends who are deep in the reparations debate are contending. They are asking for payments for every black American for systemic racism, not just slavery itself.

What do they think about William Darity?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

Why don’t you read about something that happened in 2020 instead of 1920? Like blacks murdering blacks and black kids by the thousands every year? It sounds as if you are searching for an excuse for a failed life- reading books about things that happened in 1920 don’t excuse you from being a failure today.

Why don’t you want to accept the fact that the horrible events of 1920 AND 2020 are both the results of four hundred years of slavery, oppression, racism and outright discrimination?

Reparations will help our people get in a better place, and then the process of healing may begin.

DP here. First, that story, if portrayed accurately, is absolutely tragic. I think stories like that deserve to be told and retold.

But you seem to oversimplify history. Slavery was not a government institution from which the American public at large benefited. It was a heinous practice by a fraction of the population, largely rich plantation owners in the South. It was morally reprehensible that US governments turned a blind eye to it, but as history proved it was almost untenable, it took one of the bloodiest civil wars to abolish it.

Today America is largely made up of the descendants of non-slave owning working farmers and waves of slave-wage immigrants. They don’t feel shame and they don’t feel guilt. They feel a lot of sympathy, but they will not write you a blank check.

We should. We (the US) need to atone for atrocities.
- descendant of working farmer

Two things. One, the vast majority of Americans don’t share your sentiment (per polls). Two, should we atone to sweatshop workers in Asia and how much are you willing to pay for it? In this case you directly have benefited from it.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

Of course, we should all be thoughtful in our roles as consumers. I'd be open to discussing that if you want to start a thread.

But, here in the US, the government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans. The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

You are blinded by self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with me. Sorry you can't see that.

FACT: The US government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans.

SOLUTION: The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

If it has nothing to do with you, then you are not personally entitled to a cash pay out.

Atonement is a borrowed Christian myth. Might as well sell indulgences. You might actually get your money faster that way.

Yes, I don't want a cash pay out for myself.

The US should make a significant attempt to right this grave wrong.

Policy correction, however desirable, is not a form of reparation. The people promoting reparations generally appear to be asking for cash payments, and that's what reparations usually are. Fuzziness about this issue is not helpful because that's what a lot of the opposition is about.

There have been various proposals, not all cash payments.

I don't prioritize cash payments myself but see how they provide a clear message and also give some financial autonomy.

Various proposals that are guaranteed to suck the air out of the room, while you demur. Sorry you can't demur on this. Get behind a specific proposal that expressly does not involve personal cash payments and start a new thread about it, so we can have a better conversation.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

Why don’t you read about something that happened in 2020 instead of 1920? Like blacks murdering blacks and black kids by the thousands every year? It sounds as if you are searching for an excuse for a failed life- reading books about things that happened in 1920 don’t excuse you from being a failure today.

Why don’t you want to accept the fact that the horrible events of 1920 AND 2020 are both the results of four hundred years of slavery, oppression, racism and outright discrimination?

Reparations will help our people get in a better place, and then the process of healing may begin.

DP here. First, that story, if portrayed accurately, is absolutely tragic. I think stories like that deserve to be told and retold.

But you seem to oversimplify history. Slavery was not a government institution from which the American public at large benefited. It was a heinous practice by a fraction of the population, largely rich plantation owners in the South. It was morally reprehensible that US governments turned a blind eye to it, but as history proved it was almost untenable, it took one of the bloodiest civil wars to abolish it.

Today America is largely made up of the descendants of non-slave owning working farmers and waves of slave-wage immigrants. They don’t feel shame and they don’t feel guilt. They feel a lot of sympathy, but they will not write you a blank check.

We should. We (the US) need to atone for atrocities.
- descendant of working farmer

Two things. One, the vast majority of Americans don’t share your sentiment (per polls). Two, should we atone to sweatshop workers in Asia and how much are you willing to pay for it? In this case you directly have benefited from it.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

Of course, we should all be thoughtful in our roles as consumers. I'd be open to discussing that if you want to start a thread.

But, here in the US, the government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans. The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

You are blinded by self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with me. Sorry you can't see that.

FACT: The US government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans.

SOLUTION: The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

If it has nothing to do with you, then you are not personally entitled to a cash pay out.

Atonement is a borrowed Christian myth. Might as well sell indulgences. You might actually get your money faster that way.

Yes, I don't want a cash pay out for myself.

The US should make a significant attempt to right this grave wrong.

Policy correction, however desirable, is not a form of reparation. The people promoting reparations generally appear to be asking for cash payments, and that's what reparations usually are. Fuzziness about this issue is not helpful because that's what a lot of the opposition is about.

There have been various proposals, not all cash payments.

I don't prioritize cash payments myself but see how they provide a clear message and also give some financial autonomy.

Various proposals that are guaranteed to suck the air out of the room, while you demur. Sorry you can't demur on this. Get behind a specific proposal that expressly does not involve personal cash payments and start a new thread about it, so we can have a better conversation.

Here is my proposal from many pages back:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/540/890753.page#17504286

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

Yes, I've been actively participating. And slavery is CONSTANTLY brought up as a key element. And the only time someone says it isn't is when anyone objects to basing it on slavery.

In the OP, the following is bolded:

" Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago."

So yeah, it isn't JUST about slavery. But it sure is right there, front and center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Lady, how much damn money do you want me to pay you?

Great question. A congressional study would be the best approach to defining criteria and programs, but here is what I’d like to see done:

First, the US should issue an apology that recognizes the impact of white supremacy in US policies over the last 400 years. Also, update k-12 curriculum to more accurately reflect black history in the US and incorporate programs to reduce implicit bias.

Then, to “atone” for the atrocities, the US government should create a portfolio of investments into black communities (programs to increase homeownership, education, and wealth). The actual impact of white supremacy was trillions of dollars (various estimates range from $2T to $100T+). I’d like to see that paid out over time.

$300B per year over the next 20 years (re-evaluate every 5 years):
- $25B for predominantly black PK-12 districts (that is the current gap in spending)
- $10B for training programs
- $10B for community college & HBCU
- $5B for high-quality childcare for those in training/school
- $75B for business loans/grants
- $75B for homeownership programs, prioritizing people who live in redlined neighborhoods (equity grants to reduce gap in homeownership - 43% vs 73%)
- $80B for personal investments or opportunity accounts - $2k pp per year (median white family has 86x assets as median black)
- $20B for rehabilitation programs for inmates

~40 million Americans would be eligible if criteria is having one enslaved ancestor and identifying as black for the last 10 years.

That still doesn’t cover the current wealth gap of $267k pp, but it’s a great start towards recovery.

My sources:

https://www.vox.com/2014/5/23/5741352/six-times-victims-have-received-reparations-including-four-in-the-us

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brooks-reparations-20190423-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/business/economy/reparations-slavery.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4791140_Forty_Acres_and_a_Mule_in_the_21st_Century

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/22/17999558/cory-booker-baby-bonds

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07XVF3X9D?storeType=ebooks

(I’m typing on my phone - please excuse typos)

Yes, and I expressed my support for something like that, though not in every detail.

The problem though is that it's just you. The national discussion and this thread mostly assumes cash payments, at.least in part.

Biden said he would study reparations. My personal view is that he will end up with a bunch of anti-poverty programs that don't include cash payments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Lady, how much damn money do you want me to pay you?

Great question. A congressional study would be the best approach to defining criteria and programs, but here is what I’d like to see done:

First, the US should issue an apology that recognizes the impact of white supremacy in US policies over the last 400 years. Also, update k-12 curriculum to more accurately reflect black history in the US and incorporate programs to reduce implicit bias.

Then, to “atone” for the atrocities, the US government should create a portfolio of investments into black communities (programs to increase homeownership, education, and wealth). The actual impact of white supremacy was trillions of dollars (various estimates range from $2T to $100T+). I’d like to see that paid out over time.

$300B per year over the next 20 years (re-evaluate every 5 years):
- $25B for predominantly black PK-12 districts (that is the current gap in spending)
- $10B for training programs
- $10B for community college & HBCU
- $5B for high-quality childcare for those in training/school
- $75B for business loans/grants
- $75B for homeownership programs, prioritizing people who live in redlined neighborhoods (equity grants to reduce gap in homeownership - 43% vs 73%)
- $80B for personal investments or opportunity accounts - $2k pp per year (median white family has 86x assets as median black)
- $20B for rehabilitation programs for inmates

~40 million Americans would be eligible if criteria is having one enslaved ancestor and identifying as black for the last 10 years.

That still doesn’t cover the current wealth gap of $267k pp, but it’s a great start towards recovery.

My sources:

https://www.vox.com/2014/5/23/5741352/six-times-victims-have-received-reparations-including-four-in-the-us

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brooks-reparations-20190423-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/business/economy/reparations-slavery.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4791140_Forty_Acres_and_a_Mule_in_the_21st_Century

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/22/17999558/cory-booker-baby-bonds

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07XVF3X9D?storeType=ebooks

(I’m typing on my phone - please excuse typos)

Yes, and I expressed my support for something like that, though not in every detail.

The problem though is that it's just you. The national discussion and this thread mostly assumes cash payments, at.least in part.

Biden said he would study reparations. My personal view is that he will end up with a bunch of anti-poverty programs that don't include cash payments.

Personally, my priorities are effective programs to help provide equal opportunities for education and homeownership. Changes to education to better capture the true history of white supremacy in the US as well as reduce implicit bias. As well as a formal apology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

Yes, I've been actively participating. And slavery is CONSTANTLY brought up as a key element. And the only time someone says it isn't is when anyone objects to basing it on slavery.

In the OP, the following is bolded:

" Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago."

So yeah, it isn't JUST about slavery. But it sure is right there, front and center.

Right. That was the "original sin". But not the only one.

It's not just about "the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago" as you commented.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

Yes, but from a legal standpoint, you can't point to a discrete act by the US Government that justifies reparations for every single black American.

Reparations aren't intended for "every single black American".

That's not what my black friends who are deep in the reparations debate are contending. They are asking for payments for every black American for systemic racism, not just slavery itself.

What do they think about William Darity?

I can't say for sure, but I think they'd agree with him because he argues there's a lineage standard (aka are you a descendant of slaves) and an identity standards (aka have you identified as AA for at least 12 years). That would translate to the vast majority of black Americans being eligible for reparations.

Note that he also argues that direct, cash payments be a big part of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

Yes, I've been actively participating. And slavery is CONSTANTLY brought up as a key element. And the only time someone says it isn't is when anyone objects to basing it on slavery.

In the OP, the following is bolded:

" Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago."

So yeah, it isn't JUST about slavery. But it sure is right there, front and center.

Right. That was the "original sin". But not the only one.

It's not just about "the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago" as you commented.

Well, then I'll issue my prior blanket objections.

I don't believe any person or group is entitled to reparations for anything that happened to people in a prior generation under any circumstances, no matter how horrible that was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Personally, my priorities are effective programs to help provide equal opportunities for education and homeownership. Changes to education to better capture the true history of white supremacy in the US as well as reduce implicit bias. As well as a formal apology.

I agree with this, including increasing taxes I pay to support education reforms in poor areas, universal healthcare, more tuition support for college, and homeownership programs targeted at POC. I also support a formal apology issued by the president/congress. I agree that white supremacy and implicit bias have been ongoing problems.

Supporters of cash reparations have failed to make the case for why cash is better than the programs pp lists, and that's why we've gone in circles for 58 pages. When it comes to the budget, the pie is fixed, and we can't do everything. We need to focus on the things that will make systemic change for this and future generations. Whenever somebody talks about "systemic change," though, reparations supporters just blow right past that. It's not at all clear that cash will lead to investment and more wealth, or even that more wealth is the only solution. For example, $50K might help with a deposit on a home in a better school district, but it's going to raise housing prices and, more importantly, it's not going to pay the mortgage going forward.

The justification for cash reparations supports seems to be more that it makes a statement and will mollify people. Whenever somebody asked about systemic reform, the post is either ignored, the response is a Pollyanna-ish "both!", or somebody goes back to the refrain of "it's payback for centuries of systemic discrimination." Which nobody is denying--there have been centuries of racism and discrimination--but we ARE saying, why not address the problem not just for today's generation but going forward.

Until supporters of cash reparations can explain why they're better than other reforms, we'll still see only half of blacks supporting it and just 15% of whites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Personally, my priorities are effective programs to help provide equal opportunities for education and homeownership. Changes to education to better capture the true history of white supremacy in the US as well as reduce implicit bias. As well as a formal apology.

I agree with this, including increasing taxes I pay to support education reforms in poor areas, universal healthcare, more tuition support for college, and homeownership programs targeted at POC. I also support a formal apology issued by the president/congress. I agree that white supremacy and implicit bias have been ongoing problems.

Supporters of cash reparations have failed to make the case for why cash is better than the programs pp lists, and that's why we've gone in circles for 58 pages. When it comes to the budget, the pie is fixed, and we can't do everything. We need to focus on the things that will make systemic change for this and future generations. Whenever somebody talks about "systemic change," though, reparations supporters just blow right past that. It's not at all clear that cash will lead to investment and more wealth, or even that more wealth is the only solution. For example, $50K might help with a deposit on a home in a better school district, but it's going to raise housing prices and, more importantly, it's not going to pay the mortgage going forward.

The justification for cash reparations supports seems to be more that it makes a statement and will mollify people. Whenever somebody asked about systemic reform, the post is either ignored, the response is a Pollyanna-ish "both!", or somebody goes back to the refrain of "it's payback for centuries of systemic discrimination." Which nobody is denying--there have been centuries of racism and discrimination--but we ARE saying, why not address the problem not just for today's generation but going forward.

Until supporters of cash reparations can explain why they're better than other reforms, we'll still see only half of blacks supporting it and just 15% of whites.

Well said.

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Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

Yes, I've been actively participating. And slavery is CONSTANTLY brought up as a key element. And the only time someone says it isn't is when anyone objects to basing it on slavery.

In the OP, the following is bolded:

" Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago."

So yeah, it isn't JUST about slavery. But it sure is right there, front and center.

Right. That was the "original sin". But not the only one.

It's not just about "the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago" as you commented.

Well, then I'll issue my prior blanket objections.

I don't believe any person or group is entitled to reparations for anything that happened to people in a prior generation under any circumstances, no matter how horrible that was.

And like I've said previously, there is current harm from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

Yes, but from a legal standpoint, you can't point to a discrete act by the US Government that justifies reparations for every single black American.

Reparations aren't intended for "every single black American".

That's not what my black friends who are deep in the reparations debate are contending. They are asking for payments for every black American for systemic racism, not just slavery itself.

What do they think about William Darity?

I can't say for sure, but I think they'd agree with him because he argues there's a lineage standard (aka are you a descendant of slaves) and an identity standards (aka have you identified as AA for at least 12 years). That would translate to the vast majority of black Americans being eligible for reparations.

Note that he also argues that direct, cash payments be a big part of it.

Yes, his arguments are why I came around to supporting direct, cash payments, but I personally don't place them at the highest priority.