It's (finally) time for reparations. It's time for the US to pay its debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

Why don’t you read about something that happened in 2020 instead of 1920? Like blacks murdering blacks and black kids by the thousands every year? It sounds as if you are searching for an excuse for a failed life- reading books about things that happened in 1920 don’t excuse you from being a failure today.

Why don’t you want to accept the fact that the horrible events of 1920 AND 2020 are both the results of four hundred years of slavery, oppression, racism and outright discrimination?

Reparations will help our people get in a better place, and then the process of healing may begin.

DP here. First, that story, if portrayed accurately, is absolutely tragic. I think stories like that deserve to be told and retold.

But you seem to oversimplify history. Slavery was not a government institution from which the American public at large benefited. It was a heinous practice by a fraction of the population, largely rich plantation owners in the South. It was morally reprehensible that US governments turned a blind eye to it, but as history proved it was almost untenable, it took one of the bloodiest civil wars to abolish it.

Today America is largely made up of the descendants of non-slave owning working farmers and waves of slave-wage immigrants. They don’t feel shame and they don’t feel guilt. They feel a lot of sympathy, but they will not write you a blank check.

We should. We (the US) need to atone for atrocities.
- descendant of working farmer

Two things. One, the vast majority of Americans don’t share your sentiment (per polls). Two, should we atone to sweatshop workers in Asia and how much are you willing to pay for it? In this case you directly have benefited from it.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

Of course, we should all be thoughtful in our roles as consumers. I'd be open to discussing that if you want to start a thread.

But, here in the US, the government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans. The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

You are blinded by self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with me. Sorry you can't see that.

FACT: The US government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans.

SOLUTION: The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

If it has nothing to do with you, then you are not personally entitled to a cash pay out.

Atonement is a borrowed Christian myth. Might as well sell indulgences. You might actually get your money faster that way.

[Anonymous]

There are arguments to be made against reparations but "my family wasn't here during slavery and Jim Crow so I shouldn't have to pay" isn't one of them.

When you become a citizen of a country you take on the burdens and the benefits.

Your family wasn't here during the American Revolution and the drafting of the constitution but you want the freedom and the rights.

You weren't here during the building of the railroads and the interstate highway system and our major cities and farming towns or any of the other major initiatives that made America what it is but you want to benefit and you pay the taxes. If the city where you live has to pay out to settle a suit you pay for it, even if you moved in after the offense was committed.

If you want to excuse yourself from the (alleged) debt of reparations because you and yours didn't contribute to the systems and structures that ran it up, you should similarly be ready to excuse yourself from the dividends of America because you and yours didn't contribute to building the foundation that makes those possible.

[Anonymous]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

Why don’t you read about something that happened in 2020 instead of 1920? Like blacks murdering blacks and black kids by the thousands every year? It sounds as if you are searching for an excuse for a failed life- reading books about things that happened in 1920 don’t excuse you from being a failure today.

Why don’t you want to accept the fact that the horrible events of 1920 AND 2020 are both the results of four hundred years of slavery, oppression, racism and outright discrimination?

Reparations will help our people get in a better place, and then the process of healing may begin.

DP here. First, that story, if portrayed accurately, is absolutely tragic. I think stories like that deserve to be told and retold.

But you seem to oversimplify history. Slavery was not a government institution from which the American public at large benefited. It was a heinous practice by a fraction of the population, largely rich plantation owners in the South. It was morally reprehensible that US governments turned a blind eye to it, but as history proved it was almost untenable, it took one of the bloodiest civil wars to abolish it.

Today America is largely made up of the descendants of non-slave owning working farmers and waves of slave-wage immigrants. They don’t feel shame and they don’t feel guilt. They feel a lot of sympathy, but they will not write you a blank check.

We should. We (the US) need to atone for atrocities.
- descendant of working farmer

Two things. One, the vast majority of Americans don’t share your sentiment (per polls). Two, should we atone to sweatshop workers in Asia and how much are you willing to pay for it? In this case you directly have benefited from it.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

Of course, we should all be thoughtful in our roles as consumers. I'd be open to discussing that if you want to start a thread.

But, here in the US, the government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans. The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

You are blinded by self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with me. Sorry you can't see that.

FACT: The US government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans.

SOLUTION: The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

If it has nothing to do with you, then you are not personally entitled to a cash pay out.

Atonement is a borrowed Christian myth. Might as well sell indulgences. You might actually get your money faster that way.

Yes, I don't want a cash pay out for myself.

The US should make a significant attempt to right this grave wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are arguments to be made against reparations but "my family wasn't here during slavery and Jim Crow so I shouldn't have to pay" isn't one of them.

When you become a citizen of a country you take on the burdens and the benefits.

Your family wasn't here during the American Revolution and the drafting of the constitution but you want the freedom and the rights.

You weren't here during the building of the railroads and the interstate highway system and our major cities and farming towns or any of the other major initiatives that made America what it is but you want to benefit and you pay the taxes. If the city where you live has to pay out to settle a suit you pay for it, even if you moved in after the offense was committed.

If you want to excuse yourself from the (alleged) debt of reparations because you and yours didn't contribute to the systems and structures that ran it up, you should similarly be ready to excuse yourself from the dividends of America because you and yours didn't contribute to building the foundation that makes those possible.

As long as reparations is about "I personally deserve a check," the rest of us are entitled to say, "I personally don't owe you."

If they dropped the whole idea of cash payment and made it about community services in black neighborhoods, this would be a very different conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

Yes, but from a legal standpoint, you can't point to a discrete act by the US Government that justifies reparations for every single black American.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are arguments to be made against reparations but "my family wasn't here during slavery and Jim Crow so I shouldn't have to pay" isn't one of them.

When you become a citizen of a country you take on the burdens and the benefits.

Your family wasn't here during the American Revolution and the drafting of the constitution but you want the freedom and the rights.

You weren't here during the building of the railroads and the interstate highway system and our major cities and farming towns or any of the other major initiatives that made America what it is but you want to benefit and you pay the taxes. If the city where you live has to pay out to settle a suit you pay for it, even if you moved in after the offense was committed.

If you want to excuse yourself from the (alleged) debt of reparations because you and yours didn't contribute to the systems and structures that ran it up, you should similarly be ready to excuse yourself from the dividends of America because you and yours didn't contribute to building the foundation that makes those possible.

As long as reparations is about "I personally deserve a check," the rest of us are entitled to say, "I personally don't owe you."

If they dropped the whole idea of cash payment and made it about community services in black neighborhoods, this would be a very different conversation.

Right. Really, it should just be in the form of robust social programs open to ALL low SES people, which would in turn benefit black Americans as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

Why don’t you read about something that happened in 2020 instead of 1920? Like blacks murdering blacks and black kids by the thousands every year? It sounds as if you are searching for an excuse for a failed life- reading books about things that happened in 1920 don’t excuse you from being a failure today.

Why don’t you want to accept the fact that the horrible events of 1920 AND 2020 are both the results of four hundred years of slavery, oppression, racism and outright discrimination?

Reparations will help our people get in a better place, and then the process of healing may begin.

DP here. First, that story, if portrayed accurately, is absolutely tragic. I think stories like that deserve to be told and retold.

But you seem to oversimplify history. Slavery was not a government institution from which the American public at large benefited. It was a heinous practice by a fraction of the population, largely rich plantation owners in the South. It was morally reprehensible that US governments turned a blind eye to it, but as history proved it was almost untenable, it took one of the bloodiest civil wars to abolish it.

Today America is largely made up of the descendants of non-slave owning working farmers and waves of slave-wage immigrants. They don’t feel shame and they don’t feel guilt. They feel a lot of sympathy, but they will not write you a blank check.

We should. We (the US) need to atone for atrocities.
- descendant of working farmer

Two things. One, the vast majority of Americans don’t share your sentiment (per polls). Two, should we atone to sweatshop workers in Asia and how much are you willing to pay for it? In this case you directly have benefited from it.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

Of course, we should all be thoughtful in our roles as consumers. I'd be open to discussing that if you want to start a thread.

But, here in the US, the government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans. The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

You are blinded by self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with me. Sorry you can't see that.

FACT: The US government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans.

SOLUTION: The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

If it has nothing to do with you, then you are not personally entitled to a cash pay out.

Atonement is a borrowed Christian myth. Might as well sell indulgences. You might actually get your money faster that way.

Yes, I don't want a cash pay out for myself.

The US should make a significant attempt to right this grave wrong.

Policy correction, however desirable, is not a form of reparation. The people promoting reparations generally appear to be asking for cash payments, and that's what reparations usually are. Fuzziness about this issue is not helpful because that's what a lot of the opposition is about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

Yes, but from a legal standpoint, you can't point to a discrete act by the US Government that justifies reparations for every single black American.

Reparations aren't intended for "every single black American".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Reparations in the form of cash payments or programs that are only open to black people are almost certainly unconstitutional, as they would violate the non-discrimination clauses of the constitution.

Reparations were given to Japanese Americans for a discrete act by the US Government. That was considered an exception. You can't make the argument that discrimination against black americans is the result of a discrete act.

Now, I think direct descendants of slaves who could prove their lineage might be able to qualify for such programs, but not black americans as a whole.

So until you resolve the Constitutional problem--and are ok with the government discriminating based on race in terms of whom it helps--this is all an academic discussion.

Yes, the current thinking on criteria is being able to establish that you are a descendent of enslaved people. And identifying as an AA for 10-12 years.

But other black Americans would rightly respond by saying that they, too, have suffered from systemic racism. So how do you handle their contentions?

As a country we should also work against systemic racism.

Reparations tie back to specific US policies.

Yes, but from a legal standpoint, you can't point to a discrete act by the US Government that justifies reparations for every single black American.

Reparations aren't intended for "every single black American".

That's not what my black friends who are deep in the reparations debate are contending. They are asking for payments for every black American for systemic racism, not just slavery itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

Why don’t you read about something that happened in 2020 instead of 1920? Like blacks murdering blacks and black kids by the thousands every year? It sounds as if you are searching for an excuse for a failed life- reading books about things that happened in 1920 don’t excuse you from being a failure today.

Why don’t you want to accept the fact that the horrible events of 1920 AND 2020 are both the results of four hundred years of slavery, oppression, racism and outright discrimination?

Reparations will help our people get in a better place, and then the process of healing may begin.

DP here. First, that story, if portrayed accurately, is absolutely tragic. I think stories like that deserve to be told and retold.

But you seem to oversimplify history. Slavery was not a government institution from which the American public at large benefited. It was a heinous practice by a fraction of the population, largely rich plantation owners in the South. It was morally reprehensible that US governments turned a blind eye to it, but as history proved it was almost untenable, it took one of the bloodiest civil wars to abolish it.

Today America is largely made up of the descendants of non-slave owning working farmers and waves of slave-wage immigrants. They don’t feel shame and they don’t feel guilt. They feel a lot of sympathy, but they will not write you a blank check.

We should. We (the US) need to atone for atrocities.
- descendant of working farmer

Two things. One, the vast majority of Americans don’t share your sentiment (per polls). Two, should we atone to sweatshop workers in Asia and how much are you willing to pay for it? In this case you directly have benefited from it.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

Of course, we should all be thoughtful in our roles as consumers. I'd be open to discussing that if you want to start a thread.

But, here in the US, the government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans. The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

You are blinded by self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with me. Sorry you can't see that.

FACT: The US government created and enforced racist policies that directly hurt black Americans.

SOLUTION: The US government - and its people - need to atone for those atrocities.

If it has nothing to do with you, then you are not personally entitled to a cash pay out.

Atonement is a borrowed Christian myth. Might as well sell indulgences. You might actually get your money faster that way.

Yes, I don't want a cash pay out for myself.

The US should make a significant attempt to right this grave wrong.

Policy correction, however desirable, is not a form of reparation. The people promoting reparations generally appear to be asking for cash payments, and that's what reparations usually are. Fuzziness about this issue is not helpful because that's what a lot of the opposition is about.

There have been various proposals, not all cash payments.

I don't prioritize cash payments myself but see how they provide a clear message and also give some financial autonomy.