It's (finally) time for reparations. It's time for the US to pay its debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

Yes, I've been actively participating. And slavery is CONSTANTLY brought up as a key element. And the only time someone says it isn't is when anyone objects to basing it on slavery.

In the OP, the following is bolded:

" Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago."

So yeah, it isn't JUST about slavery. But it sure is right there, front and center.

Right. That was the "original sin". But not the only one.

It's not just about "the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago" as you commented.

Well, then I'll issue my prior blanket objections.

I don't believe any person or group is entitled to reparations for anything that happened to people in a prior generation under any circumstances, no matter how horrible that was.

And like I've said previously, there is current harm [Understood, please stop here.] from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. [Damn, you didn't stop. Can we please go back to talking about current harm? I'm sorry, but we can't fix the past, and the linkages from past to present are really not that simple. ]

Well you don't seem to be getting the message, so I inserted notes above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't believe any person or group is entitled to reparations for anything that happened to people in a prior generation under any circumstances, no matter how horrible that was.

And like I've said previously, there is current harm from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc.

Can you please explain why cash is better than directly addressing the systemic causes of wealth gaps with better K-12, college and housing subsidies, universal health care, etc? Assume (because this is reality) that we can’t do both.

It seems like somebody who gets $50k could put it to college, but then the returns to Blacks from a college education is lower than the returns to whites. Plus $50k covers less than half of a good state college, so where does remaining tuition come from?

To buy a house in a better school district, you’d have to save that $50k for decades until it became several hundred thousand dollars. This is because $50k could be a deposit on a house, but it won’t pay the mortgage going forward, especially if this drives up housing prices and mortgage balances. So you need savings of hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep topping up the payments from your low income.

What has that $50k accomplished, then? It hasn’t even helped prepare kids for college (fix failing public schools) or improved healthcare or improved housing choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't believe any person or group is entitled to reparations for anything that happened to people in a prior generation under any circumstances, no matter how horrible that was.

And like I've said previously, there is current harm from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc.

Can you please explain why cash is better than directly addressing the systemic causes of wealth gaps with better K-12, college and housing subsidies, universal health care, etc? Assume (because this is reality) that we can’t do both.

It seems like somebody who gets $50k could put it to college, but then the returns to Blacks from a college education is lower than the returns to whites. Plus $50k covers less than half of a good state college, so where does remaining tuition come from?

To buy a house in a better school district, you’d have to save that $50k for decades until it became several hundred thousand dollars. This is because $50k could be a deposit on a house, but it won’t pay the mortgage going forward, especially if this drives up housing prices and mortgage balances. So you need savings of hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep topping up the payments from your low income.

What has that $50k accomplished, then? It hasn’t even helped prepare kids for college (fix failing public schools) or improved healthcare or improved housing choices.

DP. I agree that an individual cash stipend won't solve this. It would be like every AA winning a very small powerball jackpot. Some shrewd jackpot winners save or invest their money, many spend it immediately and then fall back into old patterns which are hard to break and associated with poverty. IT really wouldn't end or address systemic racism; instead it would be more likely to end the public discussion.

[Anonymous]

It won't end the whining... excuse me, discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

That's a very lovely story and you tell it so well...such enthusiasm.

Fact is you can find similar stories from every race and every nation. It's not unique. You show zero sympathy for the trials and tribulations of your fellow man. Why would you expect or deserve reparations for anything?

But we live in America and this is America's story, not that of another nation. Did other immigrants in America suffer this way for 300 years? Waiting...

You don't get to play that card if you don't recognize that there are all sorts of people in this country who have connections to people who were being raped and tortured long before Columbus sailed the ocean blue. It's not all about what may or may not have happened in the last 400 years. Go back further and further. The problem is with human nature. If you need someone to point the finger at, point it at Eve the original sinner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

"Entitled Immigrant" certainly sounds racist. especially after you explained it.

[Anonymous]

Rather than reparations, which have the tenor of simply compensating someone financially for a past wrong in return for future release of all claim- for example, the Saudi settlement with the families of 9/11 victims, I prose the creation of a sovereign wealth fund

The idea is that AA deserve to have some stake in the wealth of this country because their unpaid labor made America financiallly a viable country for hundreds of years, correct ? And that further, AA as a group disproportionately lack inherited wealth, correct ?

So, to me it seems that rather than diffuse the value of any financial re-allocation of wealth by say mailing every AA 1million dollars or something, the majority of which would just get plowed back into the consumer economy, why not instead create a permanent sovereign wealth fund and keep it going in perpetuity?

That is to say, real power and respect is confered on those who wield substantial economic power and resources ( KSA/ OPEC being another example of what Arabs have achieved despite that our cultures are in opposition in many ways )

So, the end of discrimination against AA could come if they were to be a coveted group with tremendous economic assets and power

I would say some good economists could figure out what portion of US GDP in the last year before outbreak of civil war was due to unpaid black labor and that percentage would, going forward, be the amount in today’s dollars of course that was set aside from USA GDP into the sovereign fund .

That fund would be invested by the cream of crop of money managers of world finance and , of course, be insured .

A board made up of AA economists, ethicists, scientists and the like would then allocate those funds to the service of AA including lobbying

Think APAIC on steroids

That would go a long way toward ending the disrespect, the dismissiveness, the lack of a real seat at the table

[Anonymous]

Btw, I mean that there would be an annual siphon of a certain percentage of USA GDP into this sovereign wealth fund, tax free of course, and that this would continue in perpetuity San as ur country exists

The Norwegian soveign fund is an example.

In years when we had crisis in AA community where things needed immediate attention, a withdrawal could be made from the fund and in years of economic boom more would be contributed because there would be more GDP

But unlike taxes, allocation of those funds would not be in hands of politicians who might be opposed .

Instead, the money would, by irrevocable trust,from GDP be invested into the fund, managed as long term asset portfolio ( think the Vatican )
and, of course, insured

Do you see the difference between THAT and a reparation check ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Btw, I mean that there would be an annual siphon of a certain percentage of USA GDP into this sovereign wealth fund, tax free of course, and that this would continue in perpetuity San as ur country exists

The Norwegian soveign fund is an example.

In years when we had crisis in AA community where things needed immediate attention, a withdrawal could be made from the fund and in years of economic boom more would be contributed because there would be more GDP

But unlike taxes, allocation of those funds would not be in hands of politicians who might be opposed .

Instead, the money would, by irrevocable trust,from GDP be invested into the fund, managed as long term asset portfolio ( think the Vatican )
and, of course, insured

Do you see the difference between THAT and a reparation check ?

How are you proposing to distribute the money to those who hold an interest in the fund? Because if you aren't planning on sending frequent distributions to individual shareholders, it just sounds like another plan to steal from AA people to further the interests of professional activists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rather than reparations, which have the tenor of simply compensating someone financially for a past wrong in return for future release of all claim- for example, the Saudi settlement with the families of 9/11 victims, I prose the creation of a sovereign wealth fund

The idea is that AA deserve to have some stake in the wealth of this country because their unpaid labor made America financiallly a viable country for hundreds of years, correct ? And that further, AA as a group disproportionately lack inherited wealth, correct ?

So, to me it seems that rather than diffuse the value of any financial re-allocation of wealth by say mailing every AA 1million dollars or something, the majority of which would just get plowed back into the consumer economy, why not instead create a permanent sovereign wealth fund and keep it going in perpetuity?

That is to say, real power and respect is confered on those who wield substantial economic power and resources ( KSA/ OPEC being another example of what Arabs have achieved despite that our cultures are in opposition in many ways )

So, the end of discrimination against AA could come if they were to be a coveted group with tremendous economic assets and power

I would say some good economists could figure out what portion of US GDP in the last year before outbreak of civil war was due to unpaid black labor and that percentage would, going forward, be the amount in today’s dollars of course that was set aside from USA GDP into the sovereign fund .

That fund would be invested by the cream of crop of money managers of world finance and , of course, be insured .

A board made up of AA economists, ethicists, scientists and the like would then allocate those funds to the service of AA including lobbying

Think APAIC on steroids

That would go a long way toward ending the disrespect, the dismissiveness, the lack of a real seat at the table

Well, this gets away from the personal check problem, but it still has other drawbacks. I don't think this fund will creat the respect you think it will. Native American tribes have funds like this and they don't get any more respect for it. However the fund managers do get respect...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rather than reparations, which have the tenor of simply compensating someone financially for a past wrong in return for future release of all claim- for example, the Saudi settlement with the families of 9/11 victims, I prose the creation of a sovereign wealth fund

The idea is that AA deserve to have some stake in the wealth of this country because their unpaid labor made America financiallly a viable country for hundreds of years, correct ? And that further, AA as a group disproportionately lack inherited wealth, correct ?

So, to me it seems that rather than diffuse the value of any financial re-allocation of wealth by say mailing every AA 1million dollars or something, the majority of which would just get plowed back into the consumer economy, why not instead create a permanent sovereign wealth fund and keep it going in perpetuity?

That is to say, real power and respect is confered on those who wield substantial economic power and resources ( KSA/ OPEC being another example of what Arabs have achieved despite that our cultures are in opposition in many ways )

So, the end of discrimination against AA could come if they were to be a coveted group with tremendous economic assets and power

I would say some good economists could figure out what portion of US GDP in the last year before outbreak of civil war was due to unpaid black labor and that percentage would, going forward, be the amount in today’s dollars of course that was set aside from USA GDP into the sovereign fund .

That fund would be invested by the cream of crop of money managers of world finance and , of course, be insured .

A board made up of AA economists, ethicists, scientists and the like would then allocate those funds to the service of AA including lobbying

Think APAIC on steroids

That would go a long way toward ending the disrespect, the dismissiveness, the lack of a real seat at the table

Well, this gets away from the personal check problem, but it still has other drawbacks. I don't think this fund will creat the respect you think it will. Native American tribes have funds like this and they don't get any more respect for it. However the fund managers do get respect...

My first thought was of Native Americans. If you want to give a share of pre-Civil War GDP (people would quibble with that point in time) to this fund, soon there would be demands to turn over 100% of GDP to a Native American fund, because we basically stole all their land and brought in some capital.

[Anonymous]

Instead of being defeatist about the sovereign fund idea, take a look at what it’s done for the Norwegian people in just the 30 years since its founding:

https://www.nbim.no

Hint: it’s the largest fund of its kind in the world and starting from zero in 1996 now worth in the trillions ( 60 percent of which is return on investment and 40 percent the actual annual fund collection

They seem to be managing it just fine.

The point is: it creates inter generational wealth and a well capitalized interest group

The Native Americans I believe negotiated for rights to Casinois small

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Instead of being defeatist about the sovereign fund idea, take a look at what it’s done for the Norwegian people in just the 30 years since its founding:

https://www.nbim.no

Hint: it’s the largest fund of its kind in the world and starting from zero in 1996 now worth in the trillions ( 60 percent of which is return on investment and 40 percent the actual annual fund collection

They seem to be managing it just fine.

The point is: it creates inter generational wealth and a well capitalized interest group

The Native Americans I believe negotiated for rights to Casinois small

The Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund is paid out of oil revenues and it is for all Norwegians. It's not any form of reparation, it is not limited to one specific group, it is owned by the government, and I believe it pats for pensions.

Also, what you are describing is not a sovereign wealth fund because it is not owned by a sovereign.

"Defeatist?" Why do you assume getting whatever you propose is a victory and therefore dismiss objections as "defeatism." That's a good way to lock yourself in an echo chamber.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey. Both sides of my family immigrated here in the early 1900s. Do I have to pay too? Also, will black people have to pay taxes that will pay to pay them back? Hmmmm....

Already asked and answered. Try to keep up.

Exactly.

And for the people who didn’t bother to read, and keep asking this question, YES, you are responsible for reparations.

It doesn’t matter if you are an immigrant who showed up here two years ago, or twenty years ago.

You benefited from a social structure with baked in racism. The institutions that helped you advance in this country, regardless of how hard you “worked,” have been oppressing us for four centuries.

+1

You get the good and the bad that comes with the US. You can't pick and choose, entitled immigrants.

Well, I suspect many immigrants will not see it that way, especially if you ignore their own histories and call them racist names. And there are more of them than there are of you, so as long as this is a democracy, you may simply be outvoted.

I haven't called immigrants racist names or ignored their stories.

-descendent of immigrants

Well I think the term "entitled immigrant" is racist and this thread has had worse examples in regards to immigrants. This thread is all about ignoring other people's stories, so that one particular story is favored. Maybe that's only natural when you've been the most disfavored group for so long, but that doesn't make it right.

"Entitled immigrant" is not "racist". I was referring to the immigrants who feel entitled to the perks of being a US citizen, but none of the downsides.

This thread is about one unique aspect of US history and the long-lasting impacts of those racist policies.

Feel free to start new threads to discuss other wrongs and I'll happily join them.

Well opinions as to what is a racist comment can vary.

In any event, at present, "reparations" are not a downside to being a US citizen. As long as you are seeking personal payment for the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago, everyone who is not related to those slaveowners will say "that has nothing to do with me."

You can claim "it's not about me" all you want. But if, at the end kf the day, you personally get a check in your hands for something that happened to your great-great grandfather, it's personal, and everyone who has to foot the bill will see it that way.

This thread is 58 pages long. If you read any significant portion of it, you'd realize that it's not all just about slavery. If you truly are interested in discussing, go back and read. Start with the OP.

Yes, I've been actively participating. And slavery is CONSTANTLY brought up as a key element. And the only time someone says it isn't is when anyone objects to basing it on slavery.

In the OP, the following is bolded:

" Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago."

So yeah, it isn't JUST about slavery. But it sure is right there, front and center.

Right. That was the "original sin". But not the only one.

It's not just about "the actions of a handful of white slaveowners 200 years ago" as you commented.

Well, then I'll issue my prior blanket objections.

I don't believe any person or group is entitled to reparations for anything that happened to people in a prior generation under any circumstances, no matter how horrible that was.

And like I've said previously, there is current harm [Understood, please stop here.] from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. [Damn, you didn't stop. Can we please go back to talking about current harm? I'm sorry, but we can't fix the past, and the linkages from past to present are really not that simple. ]

Well you don't seem to be getting the message, so I inserted notes above.

As I’ve said before...

There is "residual harm" from all of the various forms of oppression that have happened over the last 400 years.

slavery - loss of language, religion, family, history, culture
Jim Crow - segregation, monuments to celebrate white supremacy
redlining - further segregation

Segregation has led to decreased wealth, health, education, opportunity, etc. -- measurable harm in almost all aspects of life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ Nobody is going to give you a dime. Even if they did, nothing would change and you would still have a million excuses. Maybe you could learn something from immigrants who came from far more challenging circumstances.

Far more challenging? I'm reading a book called "White Rage" by Carol Anderson, a professor at Emory. She tells a story of a black man who worked for a brutal plantation owner in the 1920s in Valdosta, GA. He beat the men who worked for him. One day, a man fought back and killed him. In retaliation, the white people lynched 20 random black people. Including a man and his wife. The wife was 8 months pregnant. Her name was Mary Tyler. They tied her up and burned her while she was alive. They cut the baby from her and then when it fell to the ground, it cried. A white man talked over and stomped its head.

None of the white mob got tried or went to jail. Learn some history before you come on her talking about circumstances. You don't know sh!t.

Whether you like it not, black people built this country for free. Did immigrants do that? You clearly don't know your history and sound ignorant. It's sad really.

That's a very lovely story and you tell it so well...such enthusiasm.

Fact is you can find similar stories from every race and every nation. It's not unique. You show zero sympathy for the trials and tribulations of your fellow man. Why would you expect or deserve reparations for anything?

But we live in America and this is America's story, not that of another nation. Did other immigrants in America suffer this way for 300 years? Waiting...

You don't get to play that card if you don't recognize that there are all sorts of people in this country who have connections to people who were being raped and tortured long before Columbus sailed the ocean blue. It's not all about what may or may not have happened in the last 400 years. Go back further and further. The problem is with human nature. If you need someone to point the finger at, point it at Eve the original sinner.

Quick to pass the buck and blame a fictional person instead of taking some (collective) responsibility, huh?