More MOCO Upzoning - Starting in Silver Spring

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

I have zero objection to SFHs, however you define them. I object to zoning that exclusively allows SFHs and forbids all other housing types.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, 11:29 and 11:31 are both from me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

This is so well put. Any true YIMBYs should embrace the main message here but instead I see them picking at sentences they don’t like. The problem with YIMBYism as it’s practiced in MoCo is that is focuses in on micro problems (ADUs, duplexes, triplexes, etc) at the expense of tackling the issues that are inhibiting housing and economic growth (business creation, the jobs market, and infrastructure). If MoCo had a vibrant start-up climate, growing private sector employment, and infrastructure investments that supported growth, North Bethesda wouldn’t be a giant field of weeds, the county wouldn’t need to subsidize market rate housing, and White Oak, Wheaton, and DTSS would be taking off. Instead, YIMBYs cheer on politicians and planning as they try to put band-aids on failed economic and land use strategy. In reality, all these band-aids do is bail out developers who made bad land acquisitions, and ironically, keep prices high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

Read the Glossary in Thrive. Jeebus.

https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/THRIVE-Approved-Adopted-Final.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

Read the Glossary in Thrive. Jeebus.

https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/THRIVE-Approved-Adopted-Final.pdf

Is this what you're talking about?

"A single-family home or dwelling unit is one primary residence on a recorded piece of land. A single-family detached home is a stand-alone structure that does not share any walls with another housing unit. A duplex has two side-by-side units with a shared party wall. Duplexes are considered semi-detached single-family units. Townhouses are considered attached single-family homes."

How about this? "Missing Middle housing: The term Missing Middle housing encompasses a variety of housing types that range from low- to medium densities such as duplexes; triplexes; quadplexes, live-work units; and clustered housing such as townhouses, courtyard dwellings and smaller apartment buildings."

How about this? "Multifamily housing: A building containing three or more dwelling units on a single lot."

Which of those housing types do you think should be banned?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

Read the Glossary in Thrive. Jeebus.

https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/THRIVE-Approved-Adopted-Final.pdf

Is this what you're talking about?

"A single-family home or dwelling unit is one primary residence on a recorded piece of land. A single-family detached home is a stand-alone structure that does not share any walls with another housing unit. A duplex has two side-by-side units with a shared party wall. Duplexes are considered semi-detached single-family units. Townhouses are considered attached single-family homes."

How about this? "Missing Middle housing: The term Missing Middle housing encompasses a variety of housing types that range from low- to medium densities such as duplexes; triplexes; quadplexes, live-work units; and clustered housing such as townhouses, courtyard dwellings and smaller apartment buildings."

How about this? "Multifamily housing: A building containing three or more dwelling units on a single lot."

Which of those housing types do you think should be banned?

So myopic. You do realize there’s been almost zero annual growth in any kind of housing for the past five years, right? And you’re arguing about definitions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

Read the Glossary in Thrive. Jeebus.

https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/THRIVE-Approved-Adopted-Final.pdf

Is this what you're talking about?

"A single-family home or dwelling unit is one primary residence on a recorded piece of land. A single-family detached home is a stand-alone structure that does not share any walls with another housing unit. A duplex has two side-by-side units with a shared party wall. Duplexes are considered semi-detached single-family units. Townhouses are considered attached single-family homes."

How about this? "Missing Middle housing: The term Missing Middle housing encompasses a variety of housing types that range from low- to medium densities such as duplexes; triplexes; quadplexes, live-work units; and clustered housing such as townhouses, courtyard dwellings and smaller apartment buildings."

How about this? "Multifamily housing: A building containing three or more dwelling units on a single lot."

Which of those housing types do you think should be banned?

DP. Essentially you’re the when did you stop beating your wife guy.

The PP speculated that you work for Planning and based on your aggressively arrogant posting, I think that checks out.

You and Planning are so fixated on “missing middle” that you are obviously missing the forest for the trees and making the county worse off. By my count, you have about 5 years more of this nonsense before the state reforms MNCPPC. It is going to happen, but not while Elrich is CE. Once it happens, I think you will be singing a different tune once you are actually accountable to county residents and not committed to your own ideological agendas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

Read the Glossary in Thrive. Jeebus.

https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/THRIVE-Approved-Adopted-Final.pdf

Is this what you're talking about?

"A single-family home or dwelling unit is one primary residence on a recorded piece of land. A single-family detached home is a stand-alone structure that does not share any walls with another housing unit. A duplex has two side-by-side units with a shared party wall. Duplexes are considered semi-detached single-family units. Townhouses are considered attached single-family homes."

How about this? "Missing Middle housing: The term Missing Middle housing encompasses a variety of housing types that range from low- to medium densities such as duplexes; triplexes; quadplexes, live-work units; and clustered housing such as townhouses, courtyard dwellings and smaller apartment buildings."

How about this? "Multifamily housing: A building containing three or more dwelling units on a single lot."

Which of those housing types do you think should be banned?

So myopic. You do realize there’s been almost zero annual growth in any kind of housing for the past five years, right? And you’re arguing about definitions?

No, this poster (who is not me) is arguing about definitions.

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd agree with up zoning, but only if they build luxury condos and apartments. We need to drive as much poverty out of the city as we can in order to make it better and not do things that will import more of it. Silver Spring, for example, could get rid of so much crime if it had a baseline for rent well over $2000+ per month. Kinda hard for gang members and other trash to destroy an area if they can't afford to move there in.thenfiret place.

Well congratulations, poster who should have noted sarcasm but didn't to set up a strawman!

The kind of development likely to be built won't be attainable by those who can't pay $2k/mo, and won't be supporting true altruism toward those with low incomes. However, it sure will bring additional residents without providing the infrastructure to support them, and, unfortunately, that under-servicing will tend to drive existing residents with higher means, modestly or otherwise, disproportionately out (and disproportionately keep those with such means from deciding to move in). So, not really poverty, but definitely not improvement.

I just don’t get it. Basically the economic growth strategy for the county is based on building more urbanized housing to benefit a bedroom community with high quality schools. As this strategy has played out, they intentionally have overtaxed roads and overcrowded schools while creating no jobs. People who want to and can afford to live close to employment centers and don’t like overcrowded schools and traffic are moving away, replaced by less affluent people with fewer options. The claimed housing was necessary to expand the tax base but in fact increases the drag on county resources leading to further tax increases. Planning, who have had a huge role instigating this negative feedback loop, just keep doubling down on their failure and at their worst, present their failures as success. We’re not getting poorer thanks to them, they have successfully made the county more economically diverse. Increased poverty is because bad and racist NIMBYs oppose zoning “missing middle” zoning changes that their own analysis finally had to admit would not be affordable. But since they are so stuck on form, they’re now calling it “attainable”. And why are they stuck on “missing middle”? Because they spend too much time online and want likes and retweets on social media and the opportunity to win a plastic door stopper at a conference.

Why do you think people shouldn't have the choice to live in a duplex, triplex, or small apartment building?

Why is a duplex or triplex so important to you over a multi family apartment building that delivers more housing at a lower cost per unit? It’s so stupid.

You all talk about Europe when it suits you. “Missing middle” is not a housing form anywhere in Europe that delivers walkable neighborhoods. It’s all midrise multi family, interspersed with some high rise multifamily.

I'm for large multi-unit buildings. I'm also for small and very small multi-unit buildings. Why do you think people in the US should not be allowed to have the choice to live in small or very small multi-unit buildings?

If your point is that only large multi-unit buildings should be allowed because they deliver more housing at lower cost per unit (which is not necessarily true), well, that's an argument for banning detached single-unit housing. Your point, not mine.

Sorry, here is another question. It’s already permissible to combine R-60 lots and convert to townhouses. Why are you against townhouses?

I'm not. I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should all be allowed.

As you know, the proposed zoning changes in Montgomery County are for allowing more types of housing. Detached single-unit housing will continue to be allowed, and other types of housing will also be allowed.

By removing the MPDU requirement for R-60 conversion to THs, which is already legal, you will immediately see a lot of new TH construction that no one would object to. Instead you’re hyper fixated on a “missing middle”. It makes no sense from a practical standpoint and marks you as aesthetically obsessive ideologues.

First of all, if you think that nobody would object to attached single-unit housing (new or conversion from detached single-unit housing), then you haven't been to many public meetings about housing.

Second of all, I don't think it's a good idea to remove the MPDU requirement.

Third of all, I think detached single-unit housing, attached single-unit housing, and multi-unit housing should ALL be allowed. Why are you so invested in continuing to ban duplexes, triplexes, and other small multi-unit housing?

I love that you have now reframed SFHs to “attached single unit housing”.

You’re ideologically opposed to SFHs to such a degree that you want to characterize it is multifamily in the hopes that other people would oppose it too.

The reality is that there are THs all over Montgomery County interspersed with unattached SFHs. People don’t care. What they do care about is a neighbors house getting chopped into apartments or a getting turned into an apartment building in the middle of a SFH neighborhood.

A SFH is a detached building with one housing unit. A townhouse is an attached building with one housing unit. SFH = detached one-unit housing. (Unless it has an ADU; then it's detached two-unit housing. Or maybe attached two-unit housing? I'm really not sure.) Townhouse = attached one-unit housing.

There absolutely are people who live in detached one-unit housing (SFH) who object to attached one-unit housing (townhouses). And also multi-unit housing. There are also people who don't object.

A duplex is exactly the same as a townhouse, only it's a row of 2 attached housing units, instead of a row of 6 or 8 attached housing units. Why would you be for townhouses but against duplexes?

I too love to make up my own definitions when it suits me. If you work for Planning, god help us all because the situation is worse than I imagined.

So how do you define the terms SFH, townhouse, and duplex? How about two-story apartment buildings with a total of four apartments, two on each floor, which are very common where I grew up - what's your term for those? How about three-story buildings that have a total of three apartments, one on each floor, which are very common in the Boston area - what's your term for those?

Read the Glossary in Thrive. Jeebus.

https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/THRIVE-Approved-Adopted-Final.pdf

Is this what you're talking about?

"A single-family home or dwelling unit is one primary residence on a recorded piece of land. A single-family detached home is a stand-alone structure that does not share any walls with another housing unit. A duplex has two side-by-side units with a shared party wall. Duplexes are considered semi-detached single-family units. Townhouses are considered attached single-family homes."

How about this? "Missing Middle housing: The term Missing Middle housing encompasses a variety of housing types that range from low- to medium densities such as duplexes; triplexes; quadplexes, live-work units; and clustered housing such as townhouses, courtyard dwellings and smaller apartment buildings."

How about this? "Multifamily housing: A building containing three or more dwelling units on a single lot."

Which of those housing types do you think should be banned?

DP. Essentially you’re the when did you stop beating your wife guy.

The PP speculated that you work for Planning and based on your aggressively arrogant posting, I think that checks out.

You and Planning are so fixated on “missing middle” that you are obviously missing the forest for the trees and making the county worse off. By my count, you have about 5 years more of this nonsense before the state reforms MNCPPC. It is going to happen, but not while Elrich is CE. Once it happens, I think you will be singing a different tune once you are actually accountable to county residents and not committed to your own ideological agendas.

They'll have moved on. There will be no repercussions for them, only for those living in the under-served areas they forced into creation.