Thread for Derek Chauvin trial watchers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
AS IF people on here wouldn't be outraged that their husband or father was choked to death in police custody while initially resisting arrest.

In every other civilized country, resisting arrest is not a death sentence, and use of force is extremely regulated. Look up deaths in police custody in other first-world countries - practically nil.

America is both the wealthiest country in the world, yet one of the most barbaric (no gun control, outrageously expensive healthcare and medications, no social safety net). To me as a European, it's a cognitive dissonance I have difficulty reconciliating.

I would be outraged at my husband or father if they resisted arrest.

To the point that you would be okay with officers using lethal force until — and even beyond — your loved one’s death?

Yes.

You are clearly a troll.

It’s scary to think that this person might actually be a parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the jury will come back tomorrow (Wed) with conviction on everything.

BUT, if they don't come back Wed, I think it'll be several days more and it probably means one or more jurors feel police deserve the benefit of any doubt for the difficulty of their job. I don't think that is going to happen.

I am expecting a relatively quick verdict Wed. morning. Guilty on everything.

From my observation of the case I think this is the right decision. I just can't get to reasonable use of force here or past the idea that Chauvin formed an intent to kill or at least a total disregard for Floyd's life while he was kneeling on him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
AS IF people on here wouldn't be outraged that their husband or father was choked to death in police custody while initially resisting arrest.

In every other civilized country, resisting arrest is not a death sentence, and use of force is extremely regulated. Look up deaths in police custody in other first-world countries - practically nil.

America is both the wealthiest country in the world, yet one of the most barbaric (no gun control, outrageously expensive healthcare and medications, no social safety net). To me as a European, it's a cognitive dissonance I have difficulty reconciliating.

The proliferation of guns is the reason you see brutality. The job of a cop here is highly stressful and dangerous.

Maybe, but FLoyd didn't have a gun, Police are trained as first responders, and so often, they ditch that training and go right to violence. That has to change.

No but he was fighting arrest even after reasonable accommodation was offered. And in this case they didn’t immediately resort to violence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If I fought the cops, I’d expect to be manhandled and face to the ground. There were even two blacks across the street watching, talking amongst themselves about him being stupid by not getting in the car and fighting. Does that mean he should be dead, no. But he may be alive today and he just complied.

Just curious, would you fight the cops?


This is the height of victim blaming. Nothing excuses what Chauvin did for over 9 minutes. Nothing.

use of force has to be objectively reasonably throughout the restraint. Was it reasonable when he was clearly succumbing? Or when he continued to be held in prone restraint after he likely was no longer breathing and had no pulse?

Because of work, all I've been able to watch are snippets and haven't seen the last few days (is there a link which has a compilation of witness testimony?). I noticed the debate upthread about signs like petechiae missing, don't know how that testimony went, but its absence does not have to mean death was not due to positional asphyxia. Just like being able to utter words does not mean breathing is not impaired.

No - this is a key point - the question of reasonableness is no longer relevant to the charges after he was dead, which was far earlier than the end of nine minutes. The charges are for CAUSE of death. What happened after he stopped breathing is not relevant, even though disgusting.

Has it been determined at what point he stopped breathing? Not that I have heard. And you can stop breathing without being dead yet. And even if you are (and if Chauvin should have known that was the case) that means that at some time prior to that he was in acute distress, unable to resist officers, and required immediate rescue attempts. Which then becomes the "depraved heart" in my book.

[Anonymous]

I am claustrophobic and it is a horrifying experience. I feel like the oxygen has been sucked completely out of the room, I can’t breath at all, My mind is racing and I can’t focus on any one thought other than I can’t breath, I might die like this. I have been told I freak out like a wild animal to get out of the situation. It takes a long time after that to feel ‘normal’ again.

Floyd told the cops over and over he was claustrophobic and begged to not be put in the car. He is a large man and the backseat of a cop car is minuscule at best (obviously for a reason). He begged them and they threw him in anyway and he freaked out. When the cops pulled him out of the car Floyd said “THANK YOU”. Chauvin continued to escalate when he didn’t have to. Being held down,’pinned to the concrete can also feel claustrophobic and cause a visceral reaction. Chauvin had many chances to de-escalate and he did not. He should have provided cpr once Floyd stopped breathing and he did not. reckless homicide at a minimum.

Trying to tie in any health issues is a stretch to make it justified. It’s homicides version of “what she she wearing/she was asking for it” excuse.

[Anonymous]

There needs to be a stronger ethic for the preservation of life, period. Use of force needs to be examined on the basis of whether it was necessary rather than justified. It's not just deaths and serious injuries at point of arrests, it's deaths and serious injuries in jails and prisons. Every community has had situations in which a powerless inmate has been in dire need of medical attention and been callously ignored, resulting in death. And the restraint chair deaths. Pervading all these scenarios is a belief that "perps" are less than human, that their lives are disposable and do not merit attention.

I'm a boomer. Back in the late 70s I remember a college friend (a dyed in the wool revolutionary and social justice warrior raised that way from birth) bringing up that all the old western TV shows we grew up watching--the Matt Dillons, Ben Cartwrights, the rest of them--fed us constant plotlines about the whole idea being to bring the wrong-doer to justice by a fair trial. I realize that mentality did not reflect the social reality, but I find it interesting that it was a message considered important enough to keep driving at.

Given the political upheaval around policing and liability and qualified immunity, it would be hard to impossible to approach these situations from the standpoint used in medical mortality and morbidity conferences, but if that had become standard a long time ago, we might be in a much better place now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am claustrophobic and it is a horrifying experience. I feel like the oxygen has been sucked completely out of the room, I can’t breath at all, My mind is racing and I can’t focus on any one thought other than I can’t breath, I might die like this. I have been told I freak out like a wild animal to get out of the situation. It takes a long time after that to feel ‘normal’ again.

Floyd told the cops over and over he was claustrophobic and begged to not be put in the car. He is a large man and the backseat of a cop car is minuscule at best (obviously for a reason). He begged them and they threw him in anyway and he freaked out. When the cops pulled him out of the car Floyd said “THANK YOU”. Chauvin continued to escalate when he didn’t have to. Being held down,’pinned to the concrete can also feel claustrophobic and cause a visceral reaction. Chauvin had many chances to de-escalate and he did not. He should have provided cpr once Floyd stopped breathing and he did not. reckless homicide at a minimum.

Trying to tie in any health issues is a stretch to make it justified. It’s homicides version of “what she she wearing/she was asking for it” excuse.

He had just been in a car. If you’re that claustrophobic wouldn’t you avoid breaking the law? He’d been arrested before. How are people with claustrophobia supposed to be arrested? They offered to open windows and turn on AC. He was also saying I’m not that kind of guy. To me it seemed like he was trying to convince them to let him go. I think they thought he was conning them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There needs to be a stronger ethic for the preservation of life, period. Use of force needs to be examined on the basis of whether it was necessary rather than justified. It's not just deaths and serious injuries at point of arrests, it's deaths and serious injuries in jails and prisons. Every community has had situations in which a powerless inmate has been in dire need of medical attention and been callously ignored, resulting in death. And the restraint chair deaths. Pervading all these scenarios is a belief that "perps" are less than human, that their lives are disposable and do not merit attention.

I'm a boomer. Back in the late 70s I remember a college friend (a dyed in the wool revolutionary and social justice warrior raised that way from birth) bringing up that all the old western TV shows we grew up watching--the Matt Dillons, Ben Cartwrights, the rest of them--fed us constant plotlines about the whole idea being to bring the wrong-doer to justice by a fair trial. I realize that mentality did not reflect the social reality, but I find it interesting that it was a message considered important enough to keep driving at.

Given the political upheaval around policing and liability and qualified immunity, it would be hard to impossible to approach these situations from the standpoint used in medical mortality and morbidity conferences, but if that had become standard a long time ago, we might be in a much better place now.

I agree. They try to subdue too quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
AS IF people on here wouldn't be outraged that their husband or father was choked to death in police custody while initially resisting arrest.

In every other civilized country, resisting arrest is not a death sentence, and use of force is extremely regulated. Look up deaths in police custody in other first-world countries - practically nil.

America is both the wealthiest country in the world, yet one of the most barbaric (no gun control, outrageously expensive healthcare and medications, no social safety net). To me as a European, it's a cognitive dissonance I have difficulty reconciliating.

I would be outraged at my husband or father if they resisted arrest.

The GUY WAS CLEARLY HAVING A PANIC ATTACK when they were trying to place him in the car. When they had him on the ground, he appears to calm down and stop resisting. I have been arrested before, and I can tell you it is frightening. Just cause he’s a black man you think he should be accustomed to getting arrested, familiar with getting in the back of a police car? When I was arrested, I passed out in the police station when they said they were about to put me in a cell.

I never said that. Why are you making up lies? Was that why you were arrested, some type of dishonest behavior?

Actually George Floyd WAS accustomed to getting arrested. It has nothing to do with him being a black man and everything to do with his actions.

But we aren't talking about his previous arrests (YOU were the one that brought it up.) I wasn't even talking about George Floyd.

I was talking about MY family members and the standards I think they should hold, and the way I would feel about them if they didn't. A pp (not sure if it was you or not) tried to say how EVERYONE would feel about something, and I said I would feel different.

Stop with the dramatics. No one lied on you. And I never said you said anything, why are making up lies? I asked you a question. You think Mr. Floyd should be so accustomed to getting arrested that, this time should’ve been no big deal right? You don’t know what he was accustomed to. Look, no one wants to get arrested, and obviously you shouldn’t resist. Mr. Floyd was maybe on high on drugs, and maybe having a panic/anxiety attack, so he didn’t make the best decision, but that shouldn’t lead to his death. The police are supposed to de-escalate. Mr. Chauvin had many opportunities to do that and he didn’t.

And I was arrested for protesting something I believed in at a rally in a small Alabama town. There 18 hours and I was scared as hell. Black woman in a police station filled with white policemen. I did not feel safe at all.

[Anonymous]

I have a relative who is bipolar and has substance/alochol abuse issues. He is over 6" and stocky. He was raised by involved, loving parents in an UMC family in one of the wealthiest suburbs of DC. He has a history of interactions with the police when he's not on his meds and/or is high. I can picture him trying to "resist" arrest just by seeming argumentative with the police or not moving fast. I can't get past the feeling that if he were not white and living in a UMC area, he might be in GF's shoes.

If cops knew GF was high on something, why not treat him more gently, more carefully. Given the amount of people with mental illness and/or substance abuse problems in this country without access to treatment, we should as a society demand that the police have alternative ways of handling them. Maybe call an EMT before trying to force someone who's high into a squad car. Or have substance abuse experts on call to help diffuse these situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a relative who is bipolar and has substance/alochol abuse issues. He is over 6" and stocky. He was raised by involved, loving parents in an UMC family in one of the wealthiest suburbs of DC. He has a history of interactions with the police when he's not on his meds and/or is high. I can picture him trying to "resist" arrest just by seeming argumentative with the police or not moving fast. I can't get past the feeling that if he were not white and living in a UMC area, he might be in GF's shoes.

If cops knew GF was high on something, why not treat him more gently, more carefully. Given the amount of people with mental illness and/or substance abuse problems in this country without access to treatment, we should as a society demand that the police have alternative ways of handling them. Maybe call an EMT before trying to force someone who's high into a squad car. Or have substance abuse experts on call to help diffuse these situations.

My kid had pretty florid psych issues growing up, took until he was mid 20s to really stabilize. Any time I did have to summon help, I always asked for an ambulance. Police would show up as well, but they stayed on the sidelines and the EMTs handled things--they'd get him to the ER, the psych people would send someone to assess, and he might be hospitalized or referred for partial hospitalization. The psych hospital was a separate facility that did not have an ER, going directly there would have meant squad car and handcuffs and I was not about to subject him to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a relative who is bipolar and has substance/alochol abuse issues. He is over 6" and stocky. He was raised by involved, loving parents in an UMC family in one of the wealthiest suburbs of DC. He has a history of interactions with the police when he's not on his meds and/or is high. I can picture him trying to "resist" arrest just by seeming argumentative with the police or not moving fast. I can't get past the feeling that if he were not white and living in a UMC area, he might be in GF's shoes.

If cops knew GF was high on something, why not treat him more gently, more carefully. Given the amount of people with mental illness and/or substance abuse problems in this country without access to treatment, we should as a society demand that the police have alternative ways of handling them. Maybe call an EMT before trying to force someone who's high into a squad car. Or have substance abuse experts on call to help diffuse these situations.

White mentally ill people are shot and killed all the time by law enforcement. You can look up the statistics. They need to reform the way they do policing plain and simple. They need MORE funding and whole re-evaluation of goals and practices, when to let something go, when to persist, what counts as meritorious, etc. If police depts are better staffed they can take more time. Some police departments have crisis units that can be called in for mental health/autism/erratic behavior but even they make mistakes.

[Anonymous]

They are saying that to really make a statement would be for the jury to announce their verdict at the 9 hours and 29 second mark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are saying that to really make a statement would be for the jury to announce their verdict at the 9 hours and 29 second mark.

Which magical thinkers are saying this? Calls for police reform have to be more serious than these dramatics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are saying that to really make a statement would be for the jury to announce their verdict at the 9 hours and 29 second mark.

Who is the "they" here? Folks who, in virtually any other criminal context emphasize the importance of innocent until proven guilty, better to let 100 guilty people go free than jail 1 innocent, etc, but here are turning the presumed/expected/demanded guilty verdict into performance art?