Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Literacy does not preclude faith or iman. Islam is a belief system and adherence to proper conduct. If one lives thousands of miles from the local literacy teacher, would Islam say that person may not love Allah/God? What if a person lives in poverty and there are no schools where they live, does that mean Allah/God rejects their devotion? Of course not! It is understood that the Muslim must try hard to learn to read Quranic Arabic, but if extenuating circumstances can not permit it, Allah/God is merciful.

It actually isn't. It's just Arabs trying to be special again.

Where are you getting this from? Just your opinion?

My opinion too. What is required of Muslims is practice of the five pillars. You can be a devout and practicing literate (or illiterate) Muslim even if you never cracked open the Quran or learned a single hadith.

You can call it my opinion backed by 40+ years among Muslims.

Arabs, especially Gulf Arabs, as people invest their identities deeply in being the nation that brought forth Islam and Prophet Muhammad. That makes them feel special and superior among other Muslims - a position that is subtly and sometimes not-too-subtly reinforced by the Islamic establishment. That being Arab is special, and that Arabic is a special language is a very deeply held article of faith among them. While not acknowledged in public (and while in direct contradiction to the Quran and records of Muhammad), Arabs feel they are superior Muslims and human beings over Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, god forbid Africans, and don't even mention the Iranians, just because they are Arabs, and just by virtue of their birth have a stronger claim to Islam than anyone else, and are therefore a higher brand of humans, because "you can't really know Islam and Quran without learning Arabic". This is why an Arab can be friends with a Pakistani, but a thought of his sister marrying a Pakistani will make him apoplectic because "Arabs are wife takers, not wife givers". Arabs use it to blank out the fact that post the Andalus era, Arabs and specifically Gulf Arabs as a group of people and countries have contributed precious little to the coffers of world civilization - not in science, not in literature, not in music, not in art, not in politics, not in technology - but gosh darn it, we are Arabs who gave the world Islam and hold the key to its meaning, not available in any other form, and we are (still) special.

Is this racist? Of course. Does this have anything to do with what the Quran says? Absolutely not. Muhammad's last sermon specifically said black and white, Arab and non-Arab is the same. But culture influences practice, it certainly influences scholars and lawmakers, and it most certainly shapes public discourse. The Islamic discourse and mainstream Sunni Muslim scholarship is driven - and funded - by this culture. If you are from that environment, you will deny this but secretly you will know that this is true.

+1

There is much truth to this. And this view has become contagious in that it's spread north in the Arab world and is indirectly responsible for groups like ISIS.

I will say I do find all of this a great shame. I grew up in a Gulf country before the surge of money and was deeply impressed by the devout adherence to prayer--I recall lone trucks pulled off otherwise empty roads with the driver praying beside it surrounded by a vast desert. Yes, the strict adherence was probably driven by Wahhabism, but it was practiced out of deep personal piety (no one would know if the driver had prayed or not) and there was no arrogance associated with it.

If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You just read two other individuals who also told you they or their spouses were taught the Quran in Quranic Arabic and they also studied the Quran in elementary school. I corroborated these testimonies and explained I learned the Quran in the language it was revealed in. Our sunday school teacher told us the historical context of the suras and translated the suras for us. This happens when children are between 6-12 yrs of age.

The Quran used to teach children is not in modern Arabic. Its old Arabic. Children recite it. They memorize it. Then they learn the background story of the sura. And they learn the translation, often from teachers who know Quranic Arabic, every word of it. Children do not memorize the translation word for word. Unnecessary. Prayers are in Quranic Arabic, not translations. Children do not learn the translation of every sura though. How can they when its hundreds of pages long? And they may not be able to explain from the top of their head the translation to the suras they did learn. But they generally know because there are stories associated with some of them.

Why dont you call the Saudi Academy or ADAMS to find out what children are learning? They will be honest with you.

I can recite and sing Vest La Guibba and O Dolce Mani, and know directionally what they are about - does it mean I have a command of Italian?

Yes but if you studied 100 or so Italian pieces you would start to become familiar with words and phrases. Then as an adult, if you take classes, you'd be able to read any Italian piece and generally figure out what its saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

It's incredibly noteworthy when you consider that this view is embraced by Muslims with most money and therefore most opportunity to drive Islamic scholarship and discourse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

And all you have to do to conclude this argument is to admit that children who learn Quran in Arabic do not in fact get any closer to the linguistic command of 7th century Arabic - that magical, unattainable skill God wants everyone to have.

Hmmmm...I learned the meaning of some suras as a child. My siblings and parents did also. My nephew attends a full time Islamic school here and he is learning the meaning of some suras also. So why do you want me to lie to you?

Did you learn the meaning, or did you learn the 7th century Arabic in which they were written? Would you have been able to translate it word for word? When you were taught the meaning of some suras as a child, did it move you closer to the linguistic command of 7th century Arabic? Yes? No?

You aren't lying when they said you and your nephews learned the meaning of some suras. You were lying when you implied that kind of learning is the same as learning the Quranic Arabic - as in, learning the language, not learning to recite it.

You just read two other individuals who also told you they or their spouses were taught the Quran in Quranic Arabic and they also studied the Quran in elementary school. I corroborated these testimonies and explained I learned the Quran in the language it was revealed in. Our sunday school teacher told us the historical context of the suras and translated the suras for us. This happens when children are between 6-12 yrs of age.

The Quran used to teach children is not in modern Arabic. Its old Arabic. Children recite it. They memorize it. Then they learn the background story of the sura. And they learn the translation, often from teachers who know Quranic Arabic, every word of it. Children do not memorize the translation word for word. Unnecessary. Prayers are in Quranic Arabic, not translations. Children do not learn the translation of every sura though. How can they when its hundreds of pages long? And they may not be able to explain from the top of their head the translation to the suras they did learn. But they generally know because there are stories associated with some of them.

Why dont you call the Saudi Academy or ADAMS to find out what children are learning? They will be honest with you.

It is true that when taught the Quran in Arabic, the only version of the Quran used is the seventh century version. I think it would be widely held as sacriligious to translate the Quran into more updated Arabic, although foreign language translation are tolerated. I imagine understanding of the New Testament by Christians would go way down if we insisted that it be read only in the original Greek.

But there's the problem--we have a book at the center of Islam that cannot be understood even by otherwise literate and educated Arabs without a lot of teaching. This provides ample opportunity for individuals to self-anoint as arbiters of what it actually says, a sort of modern day priesthood who are guardians of the secrets. (And yes I know they are no priests in Islam--please take this metaphorically.) And obviously the more emphasis that is put on the teaching of the Quran, hadith, etc. and the less put on the practice of the five pillars (which require absolutely no special instruction other than in the prayers that can be almost as easily memorized as the basic Christian prayers).

And so we get so called Islamic regimes whose first acts inevitably are about the covering up of women and lowering the female age of marriage, instead of about giving generously to the poor and practicing zakat.

You woefully misunderstand Islam. I say this with sincerity. You should learn Quranic Arabic yourself and the tafsir. Otherwise your opinion may as well be based on a TV show or uneducated opinions. Truly. Learn it yourself. You can call any mosque and they will tell you where you can take classes for adults. You do not need to be a Muslim to take such classes!

The covering of the hair or body is mentioned in the Quran in the context of modesty as khumr, such as women who would go to the well to get water and would allow their cleavage to be visible. Allah/God asked them to cover their bodies. The reason so much emphasis is placed on covering is because of this and cultural reasons.

Just my point. It is WAY more important in true Islam to do acts of charity and pay zakat then to make sure not a single strand of hair is uncovered (an obsession in today's Islam). I am doing this from memory, but I believe the only thing one can point to in the Quran is that women should cover their "zeinat" or beautiful things. As we know beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I could see a bikini qualifying under this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Literacy does not preclude faith or iman. Islam is a belief system and adherence to proper conduct. If one lives thousands of miles from the local literacy teacher, would Islam say that person may not love Allah/God? What if a person lives in poverty and there are no schools where they live, does that mean Allah/God rejects their devotion? Of course not! It is understood that the Muslim must try hard to learn to read Quranic Arabic, but if extenuating circumstances can not permit it, Allah/God is merciful.

It actually isn't. It's just Arabs trying to be special again.

Where are you getting this from? Just your opinion?

My opinion too. What is required of Muslims is practice of the five pillars. You can be a devout and practicing literate (or illiterate) Muslim even if you never cracked open the Quran or learned a single hadith.

You can call it my opinion backed by 40+ years among Muslims.

Arabs, especially Gulf Arabs, as people invest their identities deeply in being the nation that brought forth Islam and Prophet Muhammad. That makes them feel special and superior among other Muslims - a position that is subtly and sometimes not-too-subtly reinforced by the Islamic establishment. That being Arab is special, and that Arabic is a special language is a very deeply held article of faith among them. While not acknowledged in public (and while in direct contradiction to the Quran and records of Muhammad), Arabs feel they are superior Muslims and human beings over Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, god forbid Africans, and don't even mention the Iranians, just because they are Arabs, and just by virtue of their birth have a stronger claim to Islam than anyone else, and are therefore a higher brand of humans, because "you can't really know Islam and Quran without learning Arabic". This is why an Arab can be friends with a Pakistani, but a thought of his sister marrying a Pakistani will make him apoplectic because "Arabs are wife takers, not wife givers". Arabs use it to blank out the fact that post the Andalus era, Arabs and specifically Gulf Arabs as a group of people and countries have contributed precious little to the coffers of world civilization - not in science, not in literature, not in music, not in art, not in politics, not in technology - but gosh darn it, we are Arabs who gave the world Islam and hold the key to its meaning, not available in any other form, and we are (still) special.

Is this racist? Of course. Does this have anything to do with what the Quran says? Absolutely not. Muhammad's last sermon specifically said black and white, Arab and non-Arab is the same. But culture influences practice, it certainly influences scholars and lawmakers, and it most certainly shapes public discourse. The Islamic discourse and mainstream Sunni Muslim scholarship is driven - and funded - by this culture. If you are from that environment, you will deny this but secretly you will know that this is true.

+1

There is much truth to this. And this view has become contagious in that it's spread north in the Arab world and is indirectly responsible for groups like ISIS.

I will say I do find all of this a great shame. I grew up in a Gulf country before the surge of money and was deeply impressed by the devout adherence to prayer--I recall lone trucks pulled off otherwise empty roads with the driver praying beside it surrounded by a vast desert. Yes, the strict adherence was probably driven by Wahhabism, but it was practiced out of deep personal piety (no one would know if the driver had prayed or not) and there was no arrogance associated with it.

This is also why a brand of expansionist, aggressive Sunni Islam intrudes into other countries - whether militarily (like ISIS) or culturally (like KSA-funded mosques) - it takes great pains to impress or force the local population to believe that the only way to be true Muslims is to behave and look exactly Arabs.

Stupid, petty example - Muslim women in the Caucasus cover their hair and always did. Their native style of hair covering is a Bosnian-style headscarf tied on top of the head with a knot in the back, ends of scarf down the back, neck open. They've done it for centuries - a culturally acceptable, climate-appropriate way of signifying their Islam. Once Saudi-Wahhabi money and imams came over, they started to enforce turtle-style hijabs covering the entire torso - something that has NEVER been practiced in that culture. See? Take something that only Arabs do and enforce is as the only way to practice Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

It's incredibly noteworthy when you consider that this view is embraced by Muslims with most money and therefore most opportunity to drive Islamic scholarship and discourse.

I think this view has come with the money.

In 1940 the GDP of Saudi Arabia was around $15 million. It was one of the poorest countries in the world and I think it is fair to say no one spent any time pondering their superiority. The oil company that had a concession had potential Saudi workers (all male of course) evaluated by their doctors to determine fitness for work. They found that by US standards only 1 in 100 would meet US standards for fitness owing to the prevalence of disease and malnutrition. Poverty remained a significant problem until the price of oil suddenly went up from around $3 a barrel to $10 in the early 1970's.

Money breeds a sense of superiority and new money especially breeds arrogance. Nothing particular to the Gulf, just human nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

It's incredibly noteworthy when you consider that this view is embraced by Muslims with most money and therefore most opportunity to drive Islamic scholarship and discourse.

I think this view has come with the money.

In 1940 the GDP of Saudi Arabia was around $15 million. It was one of the poorest countries in the world and I think it is fair to say no one spent any time pondering their superiority. The oil company that had a concession had potential Saudi workers (all male of course) evaluated by their doctors to determine fitness for work. They found that by US standards only 1 in 100 would meet US standards for fitness owing to the prevalence of disease and malnutrition. Poverty remained a significant problem until the price of oil suddenly went up from around $3 a barrel to $10 in the early 1970's.

Money breeds a sense of superiority and new money especially breeds arrogance. Nothing particular to the Gulf, just human nature.

Poverty in Shia areas in the Gulf still remains a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The Quran used to teach children is not in modern Arabic. Its old Arabic. Children recite it. They memorize it. Then they learn the background story of the sura. And they learn the translation, often from teachers who know Quranic Arabic, every word of it. Children do not memorize the translation word for word. Unnecessary. Prayers are in Quranic Arabic, not translations. Children do not learn the translation of every sura though. How can they when its hundreds of pages long? And they may not be able to explain from the top of their head the translation to the suras they did learn. But they generally know because there are stories associated with some of them.

Why dont you call the Saudi Academy or ADAMS to find out what children are learning? They will be honest with you.

I wonder if you understand that every post of yours on the subject confirms my position, not yours.

Children memorize the surahs and learn to recite them, like a collection of sounds in a language they don't know. Then someone tells them what (they think) this chapter is about. But children do not learn the translation of every surah, and they can't explain the translations they did learn.

Two questions for you:

a. How does this move anyone closer to the command of the Quranic Arabic you said it does?
b. How is this different from opera singers delivering arias in languages they don't speak?

If my answers have confirmed your beliefs it means I have done a poor job of explaining or you were biased long before you got on DCUM. If I have done a poor job explaining, then its all the more reason for you to call a mosque to inquire about Quranic Arabic classes. You can google "mosques in Northern Virginia" (DC or Maryland). The most well known mosque in Virginia is ADAMS or All Dulles Area Muslim Society. The Imam there is Muhamed Magid. The mosque has a great relationship with the US government. The FBI and CIA know Imam Magid and they have a mutually respectful relationship. The mosque has a very good relationship with local churches and synagogues too. They can refer you to teachers far, far more knowledgeable than me and more adept at explaining things. You can question and challenge them thoroughly. If you want, you can even locate a nonMuslim Quranic Arabic instructor if you would trust them more.

Come back to DCUM after three years of study and tell me if your understanding of Islam is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

It's incredibly noteworthy when you consider that this view is embraced by Muslims with most money and therefore most opportunity to drive Islamic scholarship and discourse.

I think this view has come with the money.

In 1940 the GDP of Saudi Arabia was around $15 million. It was one of the poorest countries in the world and I think it is fair to say no one spent any time pondering their superiority. The oil company that had a concession had potential Saudi workers (all male of course) evaluated by their doctors to determine fitness for work. They found that by US standards only 1 in 100 would meet US standards for fitness owing to the prevalence of disease and malnutrition. Poverty remained a significant problem until the price of oil suddenly went up from around $3 a barrel to $10 in the early 1970's.

Money breeds a sense of superiority and new money especially breeds arrogance. Nothing particular to the Gulf, just human nature.

Poverty in Shia areas in the Gulf still remains a problem.

Actually the oil company operated in heavily Shia areas. Abject poverty is pretty much a thing of the past in those areas. But yes, many would be considered poor relative to today's greatly increased standard of living even though their current standard would have been considered very rich in the mid part of the last century.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Literacy does not preclude faith or iman. Islam is a belief system and adherence to proper conduct. If one lives thousands of miles from the local literacy teacher, would Islam say that person may not love Allah/God? What if a person lives in poverty and there are no schools where they live, does that mean Allah/God rejects their devotion? Of course not! It is understood that the Muslim must try hard to learn to read Quranic Arabic, but if extenuating circumstances can not permit it, Allah/God is merciful.

It actually isn't. It's just Arabs trying to be special again.

Where are you getting this from? Just your opinion?

My opinion too. What is required of Muslims is practice of the five pillars. You can be a devout and practicing literate (or illiterate) Muslim even if you never cracked open the Quran or learned a single hadith.

You can call it my opinion backed by 40+ years among Muslims.

Arabs, especially Gulf Arabs, as people invest their identities deeply in being the nation that brought forth Islam and Prophet Muhammad. That makes them feel special and superior among other Muslims - a position that is subtly and sometimes not-too-subtly reinforced by the Islamic establishment. That being Arab is special, and that Arabic is a special language is a very deeply held article of faith among them. While not acknowledged in public (and while in direct contradiction to the Quran and records of Muhammad), Arabs feel they are superior Muslims and human beings over Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, god forbid Africans, and don't even mention the Iranians, just because they are Arabs, and just by virtue of their birth have a stronger claim to Islam than anyone else, and are therefore a higher brand of humans, because "you can't really know Islam and Quran without learning Arabic". This is why an Arab can be friends with a Pakistani, but a thought of his sister marrying a Pakistani will make him apoplectic because "Arabs are wife takers, not wife givers". Arabs use it to blank out the fact that post the Andalus era, Arabs and specifically Gulf Arabs as a group of people and countries have contributed precious little to the coffers of world civilization - not in science, not in literature, not in music, not in art, not in politics, not in technology - but gosh darn it, we are Arabs who gave the world Islam and hold the key to its meaning, not available in any other form, and we are (still) special.

Is this racist? Of course. Does this have anything to do with what the Quran says? Absolutely not. Muhammad's last sermon specifically said black and white, Arab and non-Arab is the same. But culture influences practice, it certainly influences scholars and lawmakers, and it most certainly shapes public discourse. The Islamic discourse and mainstream Sunni Muslim scholarship is driven - and funded - by this culture. If you are from that environment, you will deny this but secretly you will know that this is true.

+1

There is much truth to this. And this view has become contagious in that it's spread north in the Arab world and is indirectly responsible for groups like ISIS.

I will say I do find all of this a great shame. I grew up in a Gulf country before the surge of money and was deeply impressed by the devout adherence to prayer--I recall lone trucks pulled off otherwise empty roads with the driver praying beside it surrounded by a vast desert. Yes, the strict adherence was probably driven by Wahhabism, but it was practiced out of deep personal piety (no one would know if the driver had prayed or not) and there was no arrogance associated with it.

This is also why a brand of expansionist, aggressive Sunni Islam intrudes into other countries - whether militarily (like ISIS) or culturally (like KSA-funded mosques) - it takes great pains to impress or force the local population to believe that the only way to be true Muslims is to behave and look exactly Arabs.

Stupid, petty example - Muslim women in the Caucasus cover their hair and always did. Their native style of hair covering is a Bosnian-style headscarf tied on top of the head with a knot in the back, ends of scarf down the back, neck open. They've done it for centuries - a culturally acceptable, climate-appropriate way of signifying their Islam. Once Saudi-Wahhabi money and imams came over, they started to enforce turtle-style hijabs covering the entire torso - something that has NEVER been practiced in that culture. See? Take something that only Arabs do and enforce is as the only way to practice Islam.

Different women cover in different ways. Its just not as big a deal among Muslims as you are making it out to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

And all you have to do to conclude this argument is to admit that children who learn Quran in Arabic do not in fact get any closer to the linguistic command of 7th century Arabic - that magical, unattainable skill God wants everyone to have.

Hmmmm...I learned the meaning of some suras as a child. My siblings and parents did also. My nephew attends a full time Islamic school here and he is learning the meaning of some suras also. So why do you want me to lie to you?

Did you learn the meaning, or did you learn the 7th century Arabic in which they were written? Would you have been able to translate it word for word? When you were taught the meaning of some suras as a child, did it move you closer to the linguistic command of 7th century Arabic? Yes? No?

You aren't lying when they said you and your nephews learned the meaning of some suras. You were lying when you implied that kind of learning is the same as learning the Quranic Arabic - as in, learning the language, not learning to recite it.

You just read two other individuals who also told you they or their spouses were taught the Quran in Quranic Arabic and they also studied the Quran in elementary school. I corroborated these testimonies and explained I learned the Quran in the language it was revealed in. Our sunday school teacher told us the historical context of the suras and translated the suras for us. This happens when children are between 6-12 yrs of age.

The Quran used to teach children is not in modern Arabic. Its old Arabic. Children recite it. They memorize it. Then they learn the background story of the sura. And they learn the translation, often from teachers who know Quranic Arabic, every word of it. Children do not memorize the translation word for word. Unnecessary. Prayers are in Quranic Arabic, not translations. Children do not learn the translation of every sura though. How can they when its hundreds of pages long? And they may not be able to explain from the top of their head the translation to the suras they did learn. But they generally know because there are stories associated with some of them.

Why dont you call the Saudi Academy or ADAMS to find out what children are learning? They will be honest with you.

It is true that when taught the Quran in Arabic, the only version of the Quran used is the seventh century version. I think it would be widely held as sacriligious to translate the Quran into more updated Arabic, although foreign language translation are tolerated. I imagine understanding of the New Testament by Christians would go way down if we insisted that it be read only in the original Greek.

But there's the problem--we have a book at the center of Islam that cannot be understood even by otherwise literate and educated Arabs without a lot of teaching. This provides ample opportunity for individuals to self-anoint as arbiters of what it actually says, a sort of modern day priesthood who are guardians of the secrets. (And yes I know they are no priests in Islam--please take this metaphorically.) And obviously the more emphasis that is put on the teaching of the Quran, hadith, etc. and the less put on the practice of the five pillars (which require absolutely no special instruction other than in the prayers that can be almost as easily memorized as the basic Christian prayers).

And so we get so called Islamic regimes whose first acts inevitably are about the covering up of women and lowering the female age of marriage, instead of about giving generously to the poor and practicing zakat.

You woefully misunderstand Islam. I say this with sincerity. You should learn Quranic Arabic yourself and the tafsir. Otherwise your opinion may as well be based on a TV show or uneducated opinions. Truly. Learn it yourself. You can call any mosque and they will tell you where you can take classes for adults. You do not need to be a Muslim to take such classes!

The covering of the hair or body is mentioned in the Quran in the context of modesty as khumr, such as women who would go to the well to get water and would allow their cleavage to be visible. Allah/God asked them to cover their bodies. The reason so much emphasis is placed on covering is because of this and cultural reasons.

Just my point. It is WAY more important in true Islam to do acts of charity and pay zakat then to make sure not a single strand of hair is uncovered (an obsession in today's Islam). I am doing this from memory, but I believe the only thing one can point to in the Quran is that women should cover their "zeinat" or beautiful things. As we know beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I could see a bikini qualifying under this.

Anything showing cleavage, breast shape, hair, etc...

Try not to let the practice be so heavily influenced by anyones idea of what is appropriate but instead your understanding of what is required.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

It's incredibly noteworthy when you consider that this view is embraced by Muslims with most money and therefore most opportunity to drive Islamic scholarship and discourse.

Muslims care about who or what affect their ability to pray to God, perform Hajj, and perform the other pillars. Thats the bottom line. Arab superiority doesn't affect this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you know Arabs intimately, they will admit this to you (their feeling of superiority). But no matter. Non arab muslims are not prevented from hajj and thats all that matters to us. Many Pakistanis will want their children to marry Pakistanis also. Feeling of superiority are in a lot of cultures but I can say it doesn't have any effect on my life or my practice of Islam. Its not noteworthy.

It's incredibly noteworthy when you consider that this view is embraced by Muslims with most money and therefore most opportunity to drive Islamic scholarship and discourse.

I think this view has come with the money.

In 1940 the GDP of Saudi Arabia was around $15 million. It was one of the poorest countries in the world and I think it is fair to say no one spent any time pondering their superiority. The oil company that had a concession had potential Saudi workers (all male of course) evaluated by their doctors to determine fitness for work. They found that by US standards only 1 in 100 would meet US standards for fitness owing to the prevalence of disease and malnutrition. Poverty remained a significant problem until the price of oil suddenly went up from around $3 a barrel to $10 in the early 1970's.

Money breeds a sense of superiority and new money especially breeds arrogance. Nothing particular to the Gulf, just human nature.

Poverty in Shia areas in the Gulf still remains a problem.

Actually the oil company operated in heavily Shia areas. Abject poverty is pretty much a thing of the past in those areas. But yes, many would be considered poor relative to today's greatly increased standard of living even though their current standard would have been considered very rich in the mid part of the last century.

The living standard in Nejd is way higher than the eastern province where the oil is. AlSaud cares only about the nejdis abc discriminates heavily against the Shia .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Literacy does not preclude faith or iman. Islam is a belief system and adherence to proper conduct. If one lives thousands of miles from the local literacy teacher, would Islam say that person may not love Allah/God? What if a person lives in poverty and there are no schools where they live, does that mean Allah/God rejects their devotion? Of course not! It is understood that the Muslim must try hard to learn to read Quranic Arabic, but if extenuating circumstances can not permit it, Allah/God is merciful.

It actually isn't. It's just Arabs trying to be special again.

Where are you getting this from? Just your opinion?

My opinion too. What is required of Muslims is practice of the five pillars. You can be a devout and practicing literate (or illiterate) Muslim even if you never cracked open the Quran or learned a single hadith.

You can call it my opinion backed by 40+ years among Muslims.

Arabs, especially Gulf Arabs, as people invest their identities deeply in being the nation that brought forth Islam and Prophet Muhammad. That makes them feel special and superior among other Muslims - a position that is subtly and sometimes not-too-subtly reinforced by the Islamic establishment. That being Arab is special, and that Arabic is a special language is a very deeply held article of faith among them. While not acknowledged in public (and while in direct contradiction to the Quran and records of Muhammad), Arabs feel they are superior Muslims and human beings over Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, god forbid Africans, and don't even mention the Iranians, just because they are Arabs, and just by virtue of their birth have a stronger claim to Islam than anyone else, and are therefore a higher brand of humans, because "you can't really know Islam and Quran without learning Arabic". This is why an Arab can be friends with a Pakistani, but a thought of his sister marrying a Pakistani will make him apoplectic because "Arabs are wife takers, not wife givers". Arabs use it to blank out the fact that post the Andalus era, Arabs and specifically Gulf Arabs as a group of people and countries have contributed precious little to the coffers of world civilization - not in science, not in literature, not in music, not in art, not in politics, not in technology - but gosh darn it, we are Arabs who gave the world Islam and hold the key to its meaning, not available in any other form, and we are (still) special.

Is this racist? Of course. Does this have anything to do with what the Quran says? Absolutely not. Muhammad's last sermon specifically said black and white, Arab and non-Arab is the same. But culture influences practice, it certainly influences scholars and lawmakers, and it most certainly shapes public discourse. The Islamic discourse and mainstream Sunni Muslim scholarship is driven - and funded - by this culture. If you are from that environment, you will deny this but secretly you will know that this is true.

+1

There is much truth to this. And this view has become contagious in that it's spread north in the Arab world and is indirectly responsible for groups like ISIS.

I will say I do find all of this a great shame. I grew up in a Gulf country before the surge of money and was deeply impressed by the devout adherence to prayer--I recall lone trucks pulled off otherwise empty roads with the driver praying beside it surrounded by a vast desert. Yes, the strict adherence was probably driven by Wahhabism, but it was practiced out of deep personal piety (no one would know if the driver had prayed or not) and there was no arrogance associated with it.

This is also why a brand of expansionist, aggressive Sunni Islam intrudes into other countries - whether militarily (like ISIS) or culturally (like KSA-funded mosques) - it takes great pains to impress or force the local population to believe that the only way to be true Muslims is to behave and look exactly Arabs.

Stupid, petty example - Muslim women in the Caucasus cover their hair and always did. Their native style of hair covering is a Bosnian-style headscarf tied on top of the head with a knot in the back, ends of scarf down the back, neck open. They've done it for centuries - a culturally acceptable, climate-appropriate way of signifying their Islam. Once Saudi-Wahhabi money and imams came over, they started to enforce turtle-style hijabs covering the entire torso - something that has NEVER been practiced in that culture. See? Take something that only Arabs do and enforce is as the only way to practice Islam.

Different women cover in different ways. Its just not as big a deal among Muslims as you are making it out to be.

So why not let different women cover in different ways? What's with the weird urge to Arabize everyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The Quran used to teach children is not in modern Arabic. Its old Arabic. Children recite it. They memorize it. Then they learn the background story of the sura. And they learn the translation, often from teachers who know Quranic Arabic, every word of it. Children do not memorize the translation word for word. Unnecessary. Prayers are in Quranic Arabic, not translations. Children do not learn the translation of every sura though. How can they when its hundreds of pages long? And they may not be able to explain from the top of their head the translation to the suras they did learn. But they generally know because there are stories associated with some of them.

Why dont you call the Saudi Academy or ADAMS to find out what children are learning? They will be honest with you.

I wonder if you understand that every post of yours on the subject confirms my position, not yours.

Children memorize the surahs and learn to recite them, like a collection of sounds in a language they don't know. Then someone tells them what (they think) this chapter is about. But children do not learn the translation of every surah, and they can't explain the translations they did learn.

Two questions for you:

a. How does this move anyone closer to the command of the Quranic Arabic you said it does?
b. How is this different from opera singers delivering arias in languages they don't speak?

If my answers have confirmed your beliefs it means I have done a poor job of explaining or you were biased long before you got on DCUM. If I have done a poor job explaining, then its all the more reason for you to call a mosque to inquire about Quranic Arabic classes. You can google "mosques in Northern Virginia" (DC or Maryland). The most well known mosque in Virginia is ADAMS or All Dulles Area Muslim Society. The Imam there is Muhamed Magid. The mosque has a great relationship with the US government. The FBI and CIA know Imam Magid and they have a mutually respectful relationship. The mosque has a very good relationship with local churches and synagogues too. They can refer you to teachers far, far more knowledgeable than me and more adept at explaining things. You can question and challenge them thoroughly. If you want, you can even locate a nonMuslim Quranic Arabic instructor if you would trust them more.

Come back to DCUM after three years of study and tell me if your understanding of Islam is the same.

I have no interest in learning the quranic arabic or in entertaining more scholarly acrobatics from people whose main aim is to make the unattractive look attractive. This is not a personal attack against you. You've delivered the party line to the best of your ability. But if that pleases you better , you can tell yourself that I just DONT WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH goddammit.