Reply to Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.[/quote]

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is. [/quote]
So the ancestral ties thing is really a bunch of crap. If an Ivanka Trump had more kids with a nonjew, not one person in this equation has ties to Israel or its land.[/quote]

How does the fact that a minuscule number of converts immigrate to Israel somehow undermine the claim that Jews have ancestral ties to Israel? Judaism started in Israel. The vast majority of Jews are not converts. What is difficult to understand here, I’m not getting it.

Are you saying being Jewish isn’t an immutable characteristic so it’s all bullshit? People can convert to Judaism, yes, but the more relevant point is that ethnic Jews can’t really convert OUT of Judaism in a way that will shield them from discrimination. Even those who publicly disavow their faith or try to pass as Christians are persecuted (there are countless, countless examples of this during the Holocaust and throughout history). So Jewish ethnicity/ancestry is a salient category. [/quote]
I have no idea how many people have converted throughout history, 2000+ years and neither do you. How many Ivanka Trumps have there been? 
[/quote]

Just so I’m understanding correctly: your argument is that people may have converted to Judaism over the years, so Jews can’t claim ancestral ties to the land, so they have no legitimate claim to Israel, is that right? I think you’re misunderstanding what Israel is then.

First off - again, historically very few people have converted INTO Judaism. That’s just a fact. Even if we don’t know exact numbers, we know that most Jews are not converts and do not descend from converts.

Secondly, no one, except people on the fringe religious right, claims that Israel belongs to the Jews SOLELY because they used to live there 2000 years ago. That’s an element of it, sure, but there are lots of other reasons that particular piece of land was chosen. Chief among them - it was the only place on offer. Early Zionists considered Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, and other places, but the British were uniquely amenable to the Zionist project. And a bunch of literal pogrom and/or concentration camp survivors weren’t in a position to turn that down, really. Additionally, Israel is a place that has religious significance for Jews. And a place where Jews have had a continuous presence for millennia. [/quote]

I agree with what you've written here. BUT I think displacing Palestinians who also had a "continuous presence for millennia" to the land, tearing down their homes / communities, portraying that Israel was a "land without people for a people without land", seeking kudos for "making the desert bloom" when already orchards had been well established by Palestinians-- basically all acts that wiped away Palestinian history---  has led to the problems we see in the region.

To heal the wounds in the middle east, Israel needs to see that they have not always been the victim but have also the perpetrator. [/quote]

I’m the PP you’re responding to and I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Pretty much 100% of zionists I know would also agree with you also.

From a practical perspective though - the Israeli government and Israeli people don’t deny that Palestinians were displaced or killed when the country was founded. The slogans you refer to are from the very early days of Zionism, not today. I don’t know what further acknowledgment of Palestinian history is going to accomplish when there is NO corresponding introspection on the Palestinian side. Like, let’s say the Israeli government comes out with a statement tomorrow saying “we were wrong to do XYZ in 1948” - now what? You think Hamas is just going to be like “oh ok that’s alright then. We surrender.” Absolutely not. Their project, which is supported by most Palestinians according to recent polling, is to reclaim ALL of Israel.[/quote]

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