Additional neuropsych testing for kid at college/law school level. LSAT. Anyone go through this?

[Anonymous]

Before I post my question, thanks to all the parents here who helped me raise two SN kids. I've learned a lot from this forum and have tried to return to return the favor and share what our family has learned. DD is now 20, a 2e child, but had an IEP along the way and finished out high school in a special needs school. She was tested many times, the most recent (the $3K type) junior or senior year of high school and that testing (ADHD/Anxiety/exec. functioning problems)has been sufficient to give her extra time (much needed) on the ACT and then later in College. The standard is to repeat the testing every three years. So far the college hasn't asked for it to be redone. DD is doing GREAT in college and is managing her time well but it's become obvious that she has anxiety issues, exec. functioning issues and definitely a short-term memory problem. DD is a junior and has the drive and skills to make it through a masters' degree or law school and wants that (we've made the right parental noises about the lousy job market for law school graduates but DD is driven). So the question is when to retest and should it be a new tester? The standard expectation now is to take two years gap between graduation from college and law school. The LSAT requires a lot of prep. You can get extra time on it by doing the same submissions as DD's SN school did for the ACT but I don't know anyone who has done it. Has anyone here had a SN/2e child go through the LSAT and can you advise when DD should be retested? What was your experience when submitting the testing for the LSAT? Do I need a SN counselor? Money is an issue since we have three in college but if we have to do the $3K testing now, we have to do it. If the College doesn't ask for it, should we put it off the testing until well-before DD applies to take the LSAT? DD is not medicated (I've read that if student is medicated the LSAT board assumes the problem has been corrected so no additional time will be given). Please no snark - it's been hard enough to get to this stage

[Anonymous]

As someone who works in a law school and was a practicing attorney, let me implore you to discourage her from becoming a lawyer. Anxiety and depression is a huge problem in this population, and for people who are already prone to these issues, law school will certainly trigger a flare up. I can't tell you how many students I've worked with who thought they had their anxiety under control only to suffer a total breakdown after a semester or two.

Law is not a good profession for anxious people, yet oddly they seem drawn to it. People really need to educate themselves better before choosing this career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who works in a law school and was a practicing attorney, let me implore you to discourage her from becoming a lawyer. Anxiety and depression is a huge problem in this population, and for people who are already prone to these issues, law school will certainly trigger a flare up. I can't tell you how many students I've worked with who thought they had their anxiety under control only to suffer a total breakdown after a semester or two.

Law is not a good profession for anxious people, yet oddly they seem drawn to it. People really need to educate themselves better before choosing this career.

https://abovethelaw.com/2016/05/the-struggle-law-students-suffer-from-high-rates-of-depression-and-binge-drinking/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/law-school-quadruples-dep_b_5713337

http://www.daveneefoundation.org/scholarship/lawyers-and-depression/

https://www.lawcrossing.com/article/900049001/Law-School-The-Most-Depressing-Three-Years-of-Your-Life/

https://www.businessinsider.com/we-need-to-start-talking-to-law-students-about-depression-and-suicide-2014-4

[Anonymous]

Yeah, law is NOT a good career for her. There are many different types of law to practice and some learning differences don't preclude being a lawyer -- I know more than one excellent dyslexic trial attorney. But you DO need to have executive functioning and memory skills for any type of law practice. It's just not a good career for anyone with any kind of information processing differences. Add in anxiety, and that's a mix for a disaster professionally.

Instead of spending $$ on additional testing and trying to get LSAT accommodations, it would seem much better to pay for a career counselor that can identify professions that she would be suited for, and then for funding internships or additional education to get into that field.

[Anonymous]

It is quite easy to get LSAT accommodations based off your ACT (or SAT) accommodations.
https://www.lsac.org/lsat/lsac-policy-accommodations-test-takers-disabilities/policy-prior-testing-accommodations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who works in a law school and was a practicing attorney, let me implore you to discourage her from becoming a lawyer. Anxiety and depression is a huge problem in this population, and for people who are already prone to these issues, law school will certainly trigger a flare up. I can't tell you how many students I've worked with who thought they had their anxiety under control only to suffer a total breakdown after a semester or two.

Law is not a good profession for anxious people, yet oddly they seem drawn to it. People really need to educate themselves better before choosing this career.

I agree that OP's daughter should not become a lawyer, but it's because of her combination of anxiety AND cognitive limitations. Anxiety alone doesn't preclude a legal career as long as you have it under control AND you are cognitively able to do the work. The real disaster would come if you were unable to do the work AND were anxious as well. I have clinical anxiety and was actually able to excel in law school and several areas of practice because I got really good CBT for anxiety during my 1L year. Yes, I am sure my anxiety makes some things really hard on me (especially hearings) but it has not really held me back.

On the other hand, any kind of law practice is definitely stressful, so if prioritizing your mental health is your #1 goal, then yeah, you probably should avoid the law. But although my career has been imperfect, I'm glad I chose it, and I think I'd be dealing with the same anxiety issues in whatever career I would have chosen.

[Anonymous]

OP here - wow! Thank you so far. I really do appreciate the responses - I was afraid no one would respond. I am a lawyer as is wife and we both hated it so know what everyone is saying. We've advised DD how grueling the field can be and how poor the job opportunities are now compared to when we graduated. DD is drawn to it - she's taking a con law course now at college and doing spectacularly in it, mostly because she likes to argue. We've thrown every AboveTheLaw column about life as an associate at her but she still thinks she wants to do it. The counselor is a great idea. She's also talking Masters' Degree. I see her more as as an (absent-minded) academic than practicing lawyer. Keep those comments coming and THANK YOU! Much appreciated!

[Anonymous]

But employers won’t offer extra time or accommodations. I thought those really needed to end by college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who works in a law school and was a practicing attorney, let me implore you to discourage her from becoming a lawyer. Anxiety and depression is a huge problem in this population, and for people who are already prone to these issues, law school will certainly trigger a flare up. I can't tell you how many students I've worked with who thought they had their anxiety under control only to suffer a total breakdown after a semester or two.

Law is not a good profession for anxious people, yet oddly they seem drawn to it. People really need to educate themselves better before choosing this career.

I agree that OP's daughter should not become a lawyer, but it's because of her combination of anxiety AND cognitive limitations. Anxiety alone doesn't preclude a legal career as long as you have it under control AND you are cognitively able to do the work. The real disaster would come if you were unable to do the work AND were anxious as well. I have clinical anxiety and was actually able to excel in law school and several areas of practice because I got really good CBT for anxiety during my 1L year. Yes, I am sure my anxiety makes some things really hard on me (especially hearings) but it has not really held me back.

On the other hand, any kind of law practice is definitely stressful, so if prioritizing your mental health is your #1 goal, then yeah, you probably should avoid the law. But although my career has been imperfect, I'm glad I chose it, and I think I'd be dealing with the same anxiety issues in whatever career I would have chosen.

I'm happy it worked out for you, but honestly, you are an outlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But employers won’t offer extra time or accommodations. I thought those really needed to end by college.

The federal government and most large employers do now, especially for autism, but you need to file the paperwork. Extra time is allowed on all graduate exams such as GRE, LSAT, Med boards. https://sachscenter.com/testing-extended-time-sat-gre-gmat/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But employers won’t offer extra time or accommodations. I thought those really needed to end by college.

The federal government and most large employers do now, especially for autism, but you need to file the paperwork. Extra time is allowed on all graduate exams such as GRE, LSAT, Med boards. https://sachscenter.com/testing-extended-time-sat-gre-gmat/

Clients pay on a billable hour. You don't get extra time. You need strong executive function to manage your time. You need short term memory. She may get accommodations to get through law school, but she's going to really struggle to function in the real world.

OP, if your DD wants to do law school, she should work as a paralegal for a couple of years first to make sure that she can function at a law firm. It doesn't sound like a good fit for her skill set.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But employers won’t offer extra time or accommodations. I thought those really needed to end by college.

The federal government and most large employers do now, especially for autism, but you need to file the paperwork. Extra time is allowed on all graduate exams such as GRE, LSAT, Med boards. https://sachscenter.com/testing-extended-time-sat-gre-gmat/

Clients pay on a billable hour. You don't get extra time. You need strong executive function to manage your time. You need short term memory. She may get accommodations to get through law school, but she's going to really struggle to function in the real world.

OP, if your DD wants to do law school, she should work as a paralegal for a couple of years first to make sure that she can function at a law firm. It doesn't sound like a good fit for her skill set.

Not all legal practice bills by the hour. There’s a very famous disability rights lawyer who is blind. Brilliant writer. Surely does not work as quickly as biglaw would required.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here - wow! Thank you so far. I really do appreciate the responses - I was afraid no one would respond. I am a lawyer as is wife and we both hated it so know what everyone is saying. We've advised DD how grueling the field can be and how poor the job opportunities are now compared to when we graduated. DD is drawn to it - she's taking a con law course now at college and doing spectacularly in it, mostly because she likes to argue. We've thrown every AboveTheLaw column about life as an associate at her but she still thinks she wants to do it. The counselor is a great idea. She's also talking Masters' Degree. I see her more as as an (absent-minded) academic than practicing lawyer. Keep those comments coming and THANK YOU! Much appreciated!

Ahh! I am a lawyer and always hear this from prospective lawyers all the time. “People tell me I’d be a good lawyer because I’m good at arguing.” “I want to become a lawyer because I love debate.”

I want to scream every time I hear it. If you are a lawyer I’d hope you know this, but that is such a miniscule part of any lawyer’s job and should not be a factor in choosing the career. (Almost as bad as the “well, I’ve always been interested in court shows like Law and Order...”)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Before I post my question, thanks to all the parents here who helped me raise two SN kids. I've learned a lot from this forum and have tried to return to return the favor and share what our family has learned. DD is now 20, a 2e child, but had an IEP along the way and finished out high school in a special needs school. She was tested many times, the most recent (the $3K type) junior or senior year of high school and that testing (ADHD/Anxiety/exec. functioning problems)has been sufficient to give her extra time (much needed) on the ACT and then later in College. The standard is to repeat the testing every three years. So far the college hasn't asked for it to be redone. DD is doing GREAT in college and is managing her time well but it's become obvious that she has anxiety issues, exec. functioning issues and definitely a short-term memory problem. DD is a junior and has the drive and skills to make it through a masters' degree or law school and wants that (we've made the right parental noises about the lousy job market for law school graduates but DD is driven). So the question is when to retest and should it be a new tester? The standard expectation now is to take two years gap between graduation from college and law school. The LSAT requires a lot of prep. You can get extra time on it by doing the same submissions as DD's SN school did for the ACT but I don't know anyone who has done it. Has anyone here had a SN/2e child go through the LSAT and can you advise when DD should be retested? What was your experience when submitting the testing for the LSAT? Do I need a SN counselor? Money is an issue since we have three in college but if we have to do the $3K testing now, we have to do it. If the College doesn't ask for it, should we put it off the testing until well-before DD applies to take the LSAT? DD is not medicated (I've read that if student is medicated the LSAT board assumes the problem has been corrected so no additional time will be given). Please no snark - it's been hard enough to get to this stage

Your underlying premise is flawed.

[Anonymous]

The real issue is can you afford to pay $250k for her law school tuition? If so, go for it. If not, consider the very good possibility that she will graduate in the bottom half of her class from an ok law school with this much debt and no job. And she may struggle to pass a bar exam.

No one goes to law school believing this will be their outcome, but 50 percent of law students will be in the bottom half of the class. Consider that in DC, GW and Georgetown alone pump out about 1200 JDs into the job market each year (and then there is AU, Catholic, Howard, MD, Mason and UDC just in this area as well.) This is such a risky endeavor when you already know you are going to struggle, unless money is truly not an issue.