Are you offended when someone says they “didnt want someone else to raise my kids”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

Huh? That is absolutely not true.

My kids go to private school. I can either state that as a fact, or I can say that we sent them to private school because we wouldn't have sent them to the public schools for which we are zoned. Do you really think both statements are the same? In one I am simply stating what we chose. In another I am not only stating what we chose but also denigrating those who made a different choice.

Saying you don't work because you don't want someone else to raise your kids is clearly saying that you think people who use nannies or daycares don't raise their children.

Nope. When I say that we chose to put our kids in the local public school because we think it's better for them than the expensive private school, I am not denigrating your decision. When I say that you are doing your kids a disservice by sending them to private school, as well as wasting a lot of money, that is denigrating your decision.

DP. You too actually seem to be I agreement.

I'm the PP who posted about my kids going to private school and I was just going to say the nasty PP proved my point. She just had to get her dig in. Luckily I couldn't care less what she thinks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these self righteous wohm’s would rather concoct convenient narratives rather than believe that many of us sahm’s are feminists, are not remotely religious or “trad”, are not wealthy and will go back to work.

We just understand child development (something most posters don’t seem to even consider) and know that daycare 0-2 is not good for children. That matters more to me and most women I know than any political or social project. And in children with social needs and the desire for parental care is magnified.

My wish for young women is that someone will be honest with them about which careers allow part-time, about how to save so you can always take unpaid leave in addition to mat leave if you have access to it, about how that wedding money is better earmarked for a nanny and about how many women simply change their minds about daycare when they actually have a vulnerable infant in their arms. No one talks about it—it’s taboo in pre-professional environments.

For example I know several physician moms who work one or two shifts a week during the early years. How helpful it would be for young women to know this is even possible!

lol.. hypocrisy alert.

The most neglected kids I observe are young toddlers with newborn and infant siblings. If those parents truly cared about child development they would have waited til their first kid was 5 before having more.

Please point me to the studies that show that spacing out your child by more than five years leads to better outcomes.

Old article from New York Times

“Children born about two years apart, Dr. Kidwell points out, are likely to have the most intense competition for parental attention throughout their lives.

''A spacing of about five years is apparently optimal,'' Dr. Kidwell said. ''It frees the parent from having to meet the demands and pressures of two children close together in age, thus allowing parents and children more time in one-to-one interaction for a more supportive and relaxed relationship.''

Mine are six years apart. I wanted it that way but I can see why someone would choose another way. No one choice works for everyone.

That’s not a study of outcomes at all. It’s one “doctor”’s opinion. I want evidence like better outcomes in terms of education level, income, health, anything that compares different groups of adults based on their childhood spacing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

Huh? That is absolutely not true.

My kids go to private school. I can either state that as a fact, or I can say that we sent them to private school because we wouldn't have sent them to the public schools for which we are zoned. Do you really think both statements are the same? In one I am simply stating what we chose. In another I am not only stating what we chose but also denigrating those who made a different choice.

Saying you don't work because you don't want someone else to raise your kids is clearly saying that you think people who use nannies or daycares don't raise their children.

So the problem isn’t thinking it, it’s just saying it, right? Because the truth is you sent your kids to private for a reason, it’s not like you and your husband did rock paper scissors to decide.

So you won’t SAY that the public schools aren’t good enough for your kids and you feel they’d get a subpar education there (because of course it’s rude to say to the public school parents) but that doesn’t change the fact that you believe it to be true.

Long story short, either one is mature enough and secure enough to discuss things like private school and childcare honestly, or not. There is far too much thought policing and putting words in others’ mouths going on in this thread, though.

I was responding to a PP who said when people talk about their own choices they are not putting others down, they're just talking about themselves. And I said BS, you can definitely say things about your own choices in a way that is putting others down at the same time, whether you mean to or not.

I do agree with their point about insecure people being more easily offended, but I disagree with the notion that stating your choice can't be simultaneously a condemnation of someone who made the opposite choice, such as saying something like "I didn't want someone else to raise my kids." That statement is ignorant at best, offensive at worst, and anyone who would say it is an a$$ and there's no way around that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

Huh? That is absolutely not true.

My kids go to private school. I can either state that as a fact, or I can say that we sent them to private school because we wouldn't have sent them to the public schools for which we are zoned. Do you really think both statements are the same? In one I am simply stating what we chose. In another I am not only stating what we chose but also denigrating those who made a different choice.

Saying you don't work because you don't want someone else to raise your kids is clearly saying that you think people who use nannies or daycares don't raise their children.

So the problem isn’t thinking it, it’s just saying it, right? Because the truth is you sent your kids to private for a reason, it’s not like you and your husband did rock paper scissors to decide.

So you won’t SAY that the public schools aren’t good enough for your kids and you feel they’d get a subpar education there (because of course it’s rude to say to the public school parents) but that doesn’t change the fact that you believe it to be true.

Long story short, either one is mature enough and secure enough to discuss things like private school and childcare honestly, or not. There is far too much thought policing and putting words in others’ mouths going on in this thread, though.

I sent my kids to private because it's what my family does and truthfully i never even thought about the public school.

My SIL on the other hand spent so much time researching neighborhoods for the perfect public school.

So really I could say, well you send your kids to that specific public school because you think you are too good for the school 3 miles east of you.

+1

I can't stand the virtue signaling from public school parents who act like they're morally superior for buying in a top public school district. You'd freak out if your house was rezoned so stop acting like you're really a true supporter of public education or whatever you like to call yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a reason for why one spouse chose not to work or works from home/at a flexible part time job? Or is this an acceptable turn of phrase?

It's an absolutely valid statement. Many of my friends didn't want their children to be raised by strangers, some had the privilege to do it themselves or get family to support while others had to send them to daycare or leave them with nannies.

It might be shocking to the SAHP crew, but have you ever considered it’s actually developmentally superior for a few hours of the day for the child not to be attached to the parent at the hip?

SAH doesn't mean the kid is attached at the hip, just like going to child care doesn't mean neglect.

I agree, which is why I don't think SAHP spend that much 1-1 time with kids, definitely not more than working parents.

I'mthe pp you quoted. I've done both, and disagree. I definitely spent more time with ds as a SAHP. Just the every day stuff like having lunch together, even running errands. We were still together and interacting. Those things couldn't happen when I was working. Although there was my SIL. A SAHP who had little to do with her kids. At 3 & 4, they generally got up on their own. Dry cereal and a sippy cup of milk was breakfast while they watched TV and SIL slept. The whole day was them entertaining themselves.

Not really … your kids went to preschool right?

You weren't interacting 7 hours a day.

I’m not the pp but I absolutely interacted with my child 7 hours per day. I have 3 kids. My older two went to daycare/extended care when I worked. I stopped working when I had my third child. You spend more time with your child when you don’t work. I’m not sure what you are arguing. Not every hour is quality time but you spend more time. You are embarrassing yourself.

I spend 6 hours with my children and work so I'm not sure why you need to prove you spend more time with your kids to justify staying home. You stay home, own it, don't make up some crazy justification and my H spends just as much time so that is 12 hours of parental time with our kids.

How about your H how much time does he spend with the kids a day?

DH probably spends one hour per day and has zero guilt. He earns a seven figure income. I’m the pp who has 3 kids. Older 2 have sports 6x per week. DH usually picks up a kid or drives them to sports during evenings. He goes to all their games on the weekends.

That's a really sad life for your children I am so sorry for them. I'm super sorry he doesn't prioritize you or care to raise his children.

You don’t need to feel sorry for them. We get to live an amazing life. Yes, DH doesn’t spend tons of time with them Mon-Thurs but I do. He checks in on everyone and eats with us most nights.

DH gets home at 6-7 and picks up a kid on the way home.

Single parent by choice I support that... Disney dad and single mom... sound like an "amazing life"

and... he eats with you ... wow. lol such a high bar.

OMG the justifications just get crazier and crazier.

You do realize you are the one that sounds crazy. I do not think coming home at 6 is that crazy. He is a surgeon.

DP, but you're crazy for acting like a dad spending one hour a day with his kids is amazing. That sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

Huh? That is absolutely not true.

My kids go to private school. I can either state that as a fact, or I can say that we sent them to private school because we wouldn't have sent them to the public schools for which we are zoned. Do you really think both statements are the same? In one I am simply stating what we chose. In another I am not only stating what we chose but also denigrating those who made a different choice.

Saying you don't work because you don't want someone else to raise your kids is clearly saying that you think people who use nannies or daycares don't raise their children.

So the problem isn’t thinking it, it’s just saying it, right? Because the truth is you sent your kids to private for a reason, it’s not like you and your husband did rock paper scissors to decide.

So you won’t SAY that the public schools aren’t good enough for your kids and you feel they’d get a subpar education there (because of course it’s rude to say to the public school parents) but that doesn’t change the fact that you believe it to be true.

Long story short, either one is mature enough and secure enough to discuss things like private school and childcare honestly, or not. There is far too much thought policing and putting words in others’ mouths going on in this thread, though.

I was responding to a PP who said when people talk about their own choices they are not putting others down, they're just talking about themselves. And I said BS, you can definitely say things about your own choices in a way that is putting others down at the same time, whether you mean to or not.

I do agree with their point about insecure people being more easily offended, but I disagree with the notion that stating your choice can't be simultaneously a condemnation of someone who made the opposite choice, such as saying something like "I didn't want someone else to raise my kids." That statement is ignorant at best, offensive at worst, and anyone who would say it is an a$$ and there's no way around that.

I don't know if it's always insecurity. If it's a novel statement, you'd disregard, think of it as that one person's personal outlook or just not even take note.
The part that hurts more is if you are always hearing that from people around you, always harping on you being someone who outsourced raising your kids. You are rational and know 100% it's not the case but if you come across someone who says that (even if they are speaking personally) and it's the hundredth time you've felt that implied, you're going to get way more insulted and upset than you mean to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Its just a shame babies are sent to daycare like chicks in poultry farms. Kids under 10 don't need whole day of structured activities.

So...no school until 5th grade. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a reason for why one spouse chose not to work or works from home/at a flexible part time job? Or is this an acceptable turn of phrase?

It's an absolutely valid statement. Many of my friends didn't want their children to be raised by strangers, some had the privilege to do it themselves or get family to support while others had to send them to daycare or leave them with nannies.

It might be shocking to the SAHP crew, but have you ever considered it’s actually developmentally superior for a few hours of the day for the child not to be attached to the parent at the hip?

SAH doesn't mean the kid is attached at the hip, just like going to child care doesn't mean neglect.

I agree, which is why I don't think SAHP spend that much 1-1 time with kids, definitely not more than working parents.

I'mthe pp you quoted. I've done both, and disagree. I definitely spent more time with ds as a SAHP. Just the every day stuff like having lunch together, even running errands. We were still together and interacting. Those things couldn't happen when I was working. Although there was my SIL. A SAHP who had little to do with her kids. At 3 & 4, they generally got up on their own. Dry cereal and a sippy cup of milk was breakfast while they watched TV and SIL slept. The whole day was them entertaining themselves.

Not really … your kids went to preschool right?

You weren't interacting 7 hours a day.

I’m not the pp but I absolutely interacted with my child 7 hours per day. I have 3 kids. My older two went to daycare/extended care when I worked. I stopped working when I had my third child. You spend more time with your child when you don’t work. I’m not sure what you are arguing. Not every hour is quality time but you spend more time. You are embarrassing yourself.

I spend 6 hours with my children and work so I'm not sure why you need to prove you spend more time with your kids to justify staying home. You stay home, own it, don't make up some crazy justification and my H spends just as much time so that is 12 hours of parental time with our kids.

How about your H how much time does he spend with the kids a day?

DH probably spends one hour per day and has zero guilt. He earns a seven figure income. I’m the pp who has 3 kids. Older 2 have sports 6x per week. DH usually picks up a kid or drives them to sports during evenings. He goes to all their games on the weekends.

That's a really sad life for your children I am so sorry for them. I'm super sorry he doesn't prioritize you or care to raise his children.

You don’t need to feel sorry for them. We get to live an amazing life. Yes, DH doesn’t spend tons of time with them Mon-Thurs but I do. He checks in on everyone and eats with us most nights.

DH gets home at 6-7 and picks up a kid on the way home.

Single parent by choice I support that... Disney dad and single mom... sound like an "amazing life"

and... he eats with you ... wow. lol such a high bar.

OMG the justifications just get crazier and crazier.

You do realize you are the one that sounds crazy. I do not think coming home at 6 is that crazy. He is a surgeon.

DP, but you're crazy for acting like a dad spending one hour a day with his kids is amazing. That sucks.

My husband comes home around 6-7. We have 3 kids. He picks up a kid or two on his way home on most nights. He almost always has some calls or emails and also usually has some notes or paperwork to do. I do not count his time in office or on the phone spending time with kids. I also don’t count shower time or doing the dishes time with kids.

When I was a working mom, I had 1-2 hours of not quality time with my kids. DH or I picked up our kids or had a nanny depending on the year. Back then we both came home around 6. I think I got home at 5-530 but had to pick up a kid or two on way home from daycare or after care. We had dinner, played for an hour (kids played on their own. I wasn’t always playing with them), then it was bath time, get ready for bed. Then DH and I would clean up. Most nights I also had emails to read and return because I rushed out of the office to pick up my kid(s) and drive them to soccer.

I left work at around 430-5. I guess some people may say I had 3 hours with the kids but I’m not sure prepping dinner, cleaning dishes, checking emails is spending time with my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

Huh? That is absolutely not true.

My kids go to private school. I can either state that as a fact, or I can say that we sent them to private school because we wouldn't have sent them to the public schools for which we are zoned. Do you really think both statements are the same? In one I am simply stating what we chose. In another I am not only stating what we chose but also denigrating those who made a different choice.

Saying you don't work because you don't want someone else to raise your kids is clearly saying that you think people who use nannies or daycares don't raise their children.

So the problem isn’t thinking it, it’s just saying it, right? Because the truth is you sent your kids to private for a reason, it’s not like you and your husband did rock paper scissors to decide.

So you won’t SAY that the public schools aren’t good enough for your kids and you feel they’d get a subpar education there (because of course it’s rude to say to the public school parents) but that doesn’t change the fact that you believe it to be true.

Long story short, either one is mature enough and secure enough to discuss things like private school and childcare honestly, or not. There is far too much thought policing and putting words in others’ mouths going on in this thread, though.

I was responding to a PP who said when people talk about their own choices they are not putting others down, they're just talking about themselves. And I said BS, you can definitely say things about your own choices in a way that is putting others down at the same time, whether you mean to or not.

I do agree with their point about insecure people being more easily offended, but I disagree with the notion that stating your choice can't be simultaneously a condemnation of someone who made the opposite choice, such as saying something like "I didn't want someone else to raise my kids." That statement is ignorant at best, offensive at worst, and anyone who would say it is an a$$ and there's no way around that.

It is silly to even frame these things as a choice because it's not a choice for everyone. Which is why it's so tone deaf and absurd to say stuff like this.

We have some family friends who are much wealthier than we are and their kid is going to private school. I don't judge them for this -- if we had their money our kid would also be going to private school. Alas we are not and our kid is in public school as this is our only feasible option. The wife in this couple often says negative things about public schools. It is rude. Of course I assume she thinks private schools are superior to public -- that is why they chose private. I would likely agree with her! But we don't have the choice of private and it is rude to insult the school our kid does attend (sometimes right in front of our kid) without thinking for a second "wait is this a useful or interesting thing to say in this setting." It's not and instead tends to stifle conversation because my DH and I just feel tired when we hear this stuff. The husband is aware his wife is being a tool and he works hard to smooth it over but it's still annoying.

And that's also how I'd feel if a SAHP went out of their way to explain to me that they stayed home because they didn't want "someone else raising [their] kid." There are many ways to talk about why you chose to stay home that don't denigrate another family using childcare (which might be by choice and might be out of necessity and likely is to some degree a mix of both).

So I don't think it's about insecurity. It's about having different opportunities and a lot of people's choices being curtailed by finances and other resources. Pretending like we're all exactly the same and just making different "choices" is incredibly naive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these self righteous wohm’s would rather concoct convenient narratives rather than believe that many of us sahm’s are feminists, are not remotely religious or “trad”, are not wealthy and will go back to work.

We just understand child development (something most posters don’t seem to even consider) and know that daycare 0-2 is not good for children. That matters more to me and most women I know than any political or social project. And in children with social needs and the desire for parental care is magnified.

My wish for young women is that someone will be honest with them about which careers allow part-time, about how to save so you can always take unpaid leave in addition to mat leave if you have access to it, about how that wedding money is better earmarked for a nanny and about how many women simply change their minds about daycare when they actually have a vulnerable infant in their arms. No one talks about it—it’s taboo in pre-professional environments.

For example I know several physician moms who work one or two shifts a week during the early years. How helpful it would be for young women to know this is even possible!

lol.. hypocrisy alert.

The most neglected kids I observe are young toddlers with newborn and infant siblings. If those parents truly cared about child development they would have waited til their first kid was 5 before having more.

Please point me to the studies that show that spacing out your child by more than five years leads to better outcomes.

Old article from New York Times

“Children born about two years apart, Dr. Kidwell points out, are likely to have the most intense competition for parental attention throughout their lives.

''A spacing of about five years is apparently optimal,'' Dr. Kidwell said. ''It frees the parent from having to meet the demands and pressures of two children close together in age, thus allowing parents and children more time in one-to-one interaction for a more supportive and relaxed relationship.''

Mine are six years apart. I wanted it that way but I can see why someone would choose another way. No one choice works for everyone.

That’s not a study of outcomes at all. It’s one “doctor”’s opinion. I want evidence like better outcomes in terms of education level, income, health, anything that compares different groups of adults based on their childhood spacing.

There’s been plenty of studies that show only children have higher IQs than other children but what does it matter. If a family has two children in two years and the mother is overwhelmed it’s bad. If the family handles it beautifully then it’s good.

Two years apart worked well for my sister. Six years apart worked well for me. Everyone do what’s best for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these self righteous wohm’s would rather concoct convenient narratives rather than believe that many of us sahm’s are feminists, are not remotely religious or “trad”, are not wealthy and will go back to work.

We just understand child development (something most posters don’t seem to even consider) and know that daycare 0-2 is not good for children. That matters more to me and most women I know than any political or social project. And in children with social needs and the desire for parental care is magnified.

My wish for young women is that someone will be honest with them about which careers allow part-time, about how to save so you can always take unpaid leave in addition to mat leave if you have access to it, about how that wedding money is better earmarked for a nanny and about how many women simply change their minds about daycare when they actually have a vulnerable infant in their arms. No one talks about it—it’s taboo in pre-professional environments.

For example I know several physician moms who work one or two shifts a week during the early years. How helpful it would be for young women to know this is even possible!

lol.. hypocrisy alert.

The most neglected kids I observe are young toddlers with newborn and infant siblings. If those parents truly cared about child development they would have waited til their first kid was 5 before having more.

Please point me to the studies that show that spacing out your child by more than five years leads to better outcomes.

Old article from New York Times

“Children born about two years apart, Dr. Kidwell points out, are likely to have the most intense competition for parental attention throughout their lives.

''A spacing of about five years is apparently optimal,'' Dr. Kidwell said. ''It frees the parent from having to meet the demands and pressures of two children close together in age, thus allowing parents and children more time in one-to-one interaction for a more supportive and relaxed relationship.''

Mine are six years apart. I wanted it that way but I can see why someone would choose another way. No one choice works for everyone.

That’s not a study of outcomes at all. It’s one “doctor”’s opinion. I want evidence like better outcomes in terms of education level, income, health, anything that compares different groups of adults based on their childhood spacing.

There’s been plenty of studies that show only children have higher IQs than other children but what does it matter. If a family has two children in two years and the mother is overwhelmed it’s bad. If the family handles it beautifully then it’s good.

Two years apart worked well for my sister. Six years apart worked well for me. Everyone do what’s best for them.

I have a large gap with my brother. I’m envious of the siblings super close together in age who hang out in the same friend groups, have babies together, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's an insensitive thing to say because as women we are all supposed to be empathetic to the fact that no matter what women do regarding work and motherhood someone is going to judge us and we're going to feel guilty.

But also I think people say this sometimes because they are just being honest and it's how they feel. Just like I think women who go back to work actually sometimes do it because they are bored out of their minds at home with babies and want to "use their brains." I also know women who have said that they went back to work because they believe their kids are better off being raised by nannies or caregivers who are "experts" as opposed to a sahm.

All of these things will be hurtful to hear to someone who made a different choice and they are also things people actually think and feel. Women are presented with this impossible choice (if they are fortunate to even have a choice at all which most are not) and there is no answer that will ever be right for everyone so we all do this dance with each other about our choices and we offend each other constantly because there's no way for us to all validate each other and ourselves at the same time unless we all make the same choice.

But we cannot all make the same choice because we are different people with different kids and different professions and different finances and different partners and different resources.

I just try to remember all that whenever I talk to other women about this stuff and when they say things that can be viewed as an insult to my choices. They aren't really talking about me. It's just about them. And that's fine.

But why do we need to be validating our own choices to other people? DH and I made the decisions right for our family (career choices, number of kids, where to live, what schools to send them to, etc.) based on our own personal life circumstances and priorities. I am under no illusion that our choices are the “best ever” or even “better” than what other families have chosen. But I am secure we’ve made decisions that make our family happy.

I can have a conversation with another parent who made different choices than me without needing to justify/explain things in a way that belittle their choices. For instance I have a friend who is a SAHM with a big law DH. When talking to her I 100% understand why it would be logistically a nightmare for her to try to be the primary parent for 3 kids and work since he is gone long hours. Whereas I work FT but my DH also has a super flexible remote job and can help with a lot of the morning routine, shuttling kids around, etc. We can both discuss our lives and the situational decisions we’ve made without making generalized conclusions that our choice is better than the other.

I feel sorry for those who lack the ability to understand their life choices are not necessarily the best choices for others and that we do not need validate ourselves at the expense of putting down others.

This is how most well adjusted people function. The rest don't see how classless they come off putting others down and getting snippy about the decisions of others. I do think there are also genuinely unaware people who are hyper focused on their own reasons (use my brain, raise my kids) that they say it out loud without meaning to imply insult or even that someone else isn't doing that. Honestly, most of us aren't so blatant but likely don't realize all the ways we've insulted others day to day. Still, some people do mean offense and it usually doesn't sting unless you are hearing a chorus of it. Funny enough, I've been hearing one resounding sentiment but from experience on this site, other women get the flip side advised to them by their family so I can understand their defensiveness.

You're almost there. When people talk about their own decisions, they are not putting others down. Others are interpreting other people's statements as if they are reflections upon themselves when other people are just talking about themselves. It is people's insecurity and self-absorption that causes people to be offended by other people's statements about their own situations. People are not classless when they talk about their own situation. People are insecure when they are offended when other people talk about their situation.

It isn't about you.

Huh? That is absolutely not true.

My kids go to private school. I can either state that as a fact, or I can say that we sent them to private school because we wouldn't have sent them to the public schools for which we are zoned. Do you really think both statements are the same? In one I am simply stating what we chose. In another I am not only stating what we chose but also denigrating those who made a different choice.

Saying you don't work because you don't want someone else to raise your kids is clearly saying that you think people who use nannies or daycares don't raise their children.

So the problem isn’t thinking it, it’s just saying it, right? Because the truth is you sent your kids to private for a reason, it’s not like you and your husband did rock paper scissors to decide.

So you won’t SAY that the public schools aren’t good enough for your kids and you feel they’d get a subpar education there (because of course it’s rude to say to the public school parents) but that doesn’t change the fact that you believe it to be true.

Long story short, either one is mature enough and secure enough to discuss things like private school and childcare honestly, or not. There is far too much thought policing and putting words in others’ mouths going on in this thread, though.

I was responding to a PP who said when people talk about their own choices they are not putting others down, they're just talking about themselves. And I said BS, you can definitely say things about your own choices in a way that is putting others down at the same time, whether you mean to or not.

I do agree with their point about insecure people being more easily offended, but I disagree with the notion that stating your choice can't be simultaneously a condemnation of someone who made the opposite choice, such as saying something like "I didn't want someone else to raise my kids." That statement is ignorant at best, offensive at worst, and anyone who would say it is an a$$ and there's no way around that.

It is silly to even frame these things as a choice because it's not a choice for everyone. Which is why it's so tone deaf and absurd to say stuff like this.

We have some family friends who are much wealthier than we are and their kid is going to private school. I don't judge them for this -- if we had their money our kid would also be going to private school. Alas we are not and our kid is in public school as this is our only feasible option. The wife in this couple often says negative things about public schools. It is rude. Of course I assume she thinks private schools are superior to public -- that is why they chose private. I would likely agree with her! But we don't have the choice of private and it is rude to insult the school our kid does attend (sometimes right in front of our kid) without thinking for a second "wait is this a useful or interesting thing to say in this setting." It's not and instead tends to stifle conversation because my DH and I just feel tired when we hear this stuff. The husband is aware his wife is being a tool and he works hard to smooth it over but it's still annoying.

And that's also how I'd feel if a SAHP went out of their way to explain to me that they stayed home because they didn't want "someone else raising [their] kid." There are many ways to talk about why you chose to stay home that don't denigrate another family using childcare (which might be by choice and might be out of necessity and likely is to some degree a mix of both).

So I don't think it's about insecurity. It's about having different opportunities and a lot of people's choices being curtailed by finances and other resources. Pretending like we're all exactly the same and just making different "choices" is incredibly naive.

Yes, not everyone has the same choices to make. If your spouse does not earn enough for you to stay home or your marriage isn’t stable, it would be unwise and foolish to stay home. A woman with a high earning supportive spouse may opt to stay home with her kids. Same for private as pp states. Not everyone can afford private school. We can afford private and I have kids in both public and private. I see positives and negatives to both. We are Asian American. One large difference is that our public school is 30%+ Asian while many of the private are predominantly white without as much Asian representation. I know Asian kids at STA, NCS, Landon, Potomac that don’t always have the best social experiences. They do often end up at an ivy though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Growing up in Ukraine optimal spacing was 6 years - they used to say have another one when the first one starts school.

The only people I know who do that are SAHMs who want to get another 5 years of staying home and their spouses didn’t agree on them staying home forever.

I’ve been stay at home and I’ve worked part time. I don’t plan on working full time. I have one child, then another six years later then another five years later. The oldest had the advantage of being an only child during his early years. He was in school when I was home with the baby. And now the youngest has my time. They get along great. No fighting. They never played with “toys” together but they watched TV together, hung out with cousins together, have their own friends. It’s not for most people but it’s best for me. And my spouse doesn’t make the decision of whether I work or stay home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these self righteous wohm’s would rather concoct convenient narratives rather than believe that many of us sahm’s are feminists, are not remotely religious or “trad”, are not wealthy and will go back to work.

We just understand child development (something most posters don’t seem to even consider) and know that daycare 0-2 is not good for children. That matters more to me and most women I know than any political or social project. And in children with social needs and the desire for parental care is magnified.

My wish for young women is that someone will be honest with them about which careers allow part-time, about how to save so you can always take unpaid leave in addition to mat leave if you have access to it, about how that wedding money is better earmarked for a nanny and about how many women simply change their minds about daycare when they actually have a vulnerable infant in their arms. No one talks about it—it’s taboo in pre-professional environments.

For example I know several physician moms who work one or two shifts a week during the early years. How helpful it would be for young women to know this is even possible!

lol.. hypocrisy alert.

The most neglected kids I observe are young toddlers with newborn and infant siblings. If those parents truly cared about child development they would have waited til their first kid was 5 before having more.

Please point me to the studies that show that spacing out your child by more than five years leads to better outcomes.

Old article from New York Times

“Children born about two years apart, Dr. Kidwell points out, are likely to have the most intense competition for parental attention throughout their lives.

''A spacing of about five years is apparently optimal,'' Dr. Kidwell said. ''It frees the parent from having to meet the demands and pressures of two children close together in age, thus allowing parents and children more time in one-to-one interaction for a more supportive and relaxed relationship.''

Mine are six years apart. I wanted it that way but I can see why someone would choose another way. No one choice works for everyone.

That’s not a study of outcomes at all. It’s one “doctor”’s opinion. I want evidence like better outcomes in terms of education level, income, health, anything that compares different groups of adults based on their childhood spacing.

There’s been plenty of studies that show only children have higher IQs than other children but what does it matter. If a family has two children in two years and the mother is overwhelmed it’s bad. If the family handles it beautifully then it’s good.

Two years apart worked well for my sister. Six years apart worked well for me. Everyone do what’s best for them.

It matters when someone makes a claim about childhood development without evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nah, I just pity them because I know they must be insecure about their SAHM choices and bored with sitting home with their kids and needing to justify their decisions. Yes, I have less time with my kids because I WOH, but I still raise them.

What if they’re not? What if they truly believe that it’s important to be their kids’ primary caregiver in those early years? What if they’re not at all insecure about being a SAHM?

Then they wouldn't say rude things to other people... It's not complicated.

17 pages in, and this tells me it is that complicated.

It's not complicated to not be a jerk. I'm secure in the choices my family has made so I wouldn't say something that would put someone else down. Our choices were our choices. Your choices are your choices. And if you aren't lucky enough to have had choices, then I'd be an even bigger jerk for saying something about the situation you're in.