USC and Columbia Protests

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

That's not at issue. What is is whether people are willing to tolerate it or not?

Many are. There was a poster upthread who said "Israel has no choice." There is always a choice.

Sure, the choice is back off and let Gaza be rebuilt and allow Iran’s weapon and western humanitarian aid dollars to prop up Hamas so they can attack again…because they are committed to death to Israel, death to America, and death to the West…OR the West can let Israel try to end this 100+ year war for good.

I mean, even the Saudis are tired of this medieval faux-religious tribal nonsense, so you know it’s bad.

If you fail to recognize the complexity of the situation and can only see it through an overly simple metric of “stop the killing” then you really need to find unbiased policy analysts to educate yourself.

Again: nobody wants this. But someone needs to manage Iran and their proxies. This is so much bigger than Israel and Gaza.

You are definitely are missing the complexity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

Oy vey.

Think of it this way: if you live in America and can fritter away your time posting on dcum, then you are enjoying western values.

Similarly, if you are able to leave your house unchaperoned in a tank top with exposed hair…

Or if you don’t need to worry about being stoned or enduring an honor killing or being thrown off a building for who love…

Or if you recognize the rule of law…

Or benefit from capitalism…

Or enjoy public education…

Etc.

Is our democracy perfect? No. But it has the ability to evolve.

If you think life is better under a religious totalitarian regime, then I am not interested in helping you get up to speed.

You have described most of the world, even China and Russia but what you failed to do is to actually give examples of western values. Nice try though.

[Anonymous]

Every single rioting student should be expelled from the university, with prejudice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

As I said, the argument is not about whether western values exist or have merit; the argument is about whether Israel is living up to those values.

We agree on the question.

OTOH, the poster who questions the very existence and merit of western values can go jump in a lake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

As I said, the argument is not about whether western values exist or have merit; the argument is about whether Israel is living up to those values.

We agree on the question.

OTOH, the poster who questions the very existence and merit of western values can go jump in a lake.

What choice does Israel have in this situation?

ICYMI: America has dropped bombs that decimated entire populations. Why? Because it was the best (albeit terrible) option when the goal was to protect America and minimize the number of american casualties/deaths.

Sometimes countries are forced to make awful military decisions…particularly when powerful countries with military arsenals seem hell bent on wreaking murderous havoc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

Oy vey.

Think of it this way: if you live in America and can fritter away your time posting on dcum, then you are enjoying western values.

Similarly, if you are able to leave your house unchaperoned in a tank top with exposed hair…

Or if you don’t need to worry about being stoned or enduring an honor killing or being thrown off a building for who love…

Or if you recognize the rule of law…

Or benefit from capitalism…

Or enjoy public education…

Etc.

Is our democracy perfect? No. But it has the ability to evolve.

If you think life is better under a religious totalitarian regime, then I am not interested in helping you get up to speed.

You have described most of the world, even China and Russia but what you failed to do is to actually give examples of western values. Nice try though.

ICYMI: people can be tossed in jail or “disappeared” … there’s no rule of law.

It’s easier to describe those who don’t accept western values. Hint: religious extremist totalitarian regimes and the sheeple who love that brand of “religion” and (sadly) those who are forced to endure it.

#duh

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

As I said, the argument is not about whether western values exist or have merit; the argument is about whether Israel is living up to those values.

We agree on the question.

OTOH, the poster who questions the very existence and merit of western values can go jump in a lake.

What choice does Israel have in this situation?

ICYMI: America has dropped bombs that decimated entire populations. Why? Because it was the best (albeit terrible) option when the goal was to protect America and minimize the number of american casualties/deaths.

Sometimes countries are forced to make awful military decisions…particularly when powerful countries with military arsenals seem hell bent on wreaking murderous havoc.

That was arguably a war crime, and there's a reason why nuclear bombs have never been used again, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

As I said, the argument is not about whether western values exist or have merit; the argument is about whether Israel is living up to those values.

We agree on the question.

OTOH, the poster who questions the very existence and merit of western values can go jump in a lake.

What choice does Israel have in this situation?

ICYMI: America has dropped bombs that decimated entire populations. Why? Because it was the best (albeit terrible) option when the goal was to protect America and minimize the number of american casualties/deaths.

Sometimes countries are forced to make awful military decisions…particularly when powerful countries with military arsenals seem hell bent on wreaking murderous havoc.

There are lots of choices. Do you really want countries/dictators saying this? I can think back to some very evil people who probably rationalized they "had no choice."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

As I said, the argument is not about whether western values exist or have merit; the argument is about whether Israel is living up to those values.

We agree on the question.

OTOH, the poster who questions the very existence and merit of western values can go jump in a lake.

What choice does Israel have in this situation?

ICYMI: America has dropped bombs that decimated entire populations. Why? Because it was the best (albeit terrible) option when the goal was to protect America and minimize the number of american casualties/deaths.

Sometimes countries are forced to make awful military decisions…particularly when powerful countries with military arsenals seem hell bent on wreaking murderous havoc.

PP here.

I agree that Israel is in a VERY difficult position.

Point is that the question is not whether western values have merit, but whether Israel is living up to those values. And, more broadly, can nations maintain those values during wartime and, if so, to what extent?

Tough questions, that the partisans are ignoring.

[Anonymous]

How are a bunch of Marxist kids who want capitalism destroyed supporting "Western values," exactly?

[Anonymous]

You know? I know this is far beside the point. But I feel sad for these kids at the protests that you just know none of them are even having s** in those tents. They are just such a joyless group of people.

At least the Vietnam protests had an element of young energy. People had a good time while they were fighting for what they believed was right. I don't see any of that here. Just grim, miserable people being grim and miserable about everything.

This isn't even about the nuances of what they are protesting for. It's the aesthetics of it. Just, grim.

I know - it's a grim topic. It's all grim. Everything is grim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How are a bunch of Marxist kids who want capitalism destroyed supporting "Western values," exactly?

They are not.

However, self-determination, individual rights, and military actions that impact civilians are very much western values at issue WRT Israel/Palestine.

I'm generally "pro Israel" insofar as I believe in supporting and defending its existence.

But let's not pretend that these issues don't exist. They do, and they are extraordinarily difficult to resolve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What you don't get PP is that Israel is wrong for reacting to Hamas. What Hamas did was terrible. What Israel is doing currently is terrible if not worse because they are purposefully going after innocent people to punish guilty parties. Do you get that?

You all defenders of Israel's policy currently use the defense of revenge against Hamas actions and/or they aren't surrendering/doing what Israel asks/being nice and negotiating the way Israel wants. What you all fail to take into account is that Israel has free will. They can be a good or bad actor in this scenario. What they've chosen to do is to be just as bad if not worse than Hamas because you assume that the good actors know the difference between right and wrong.

If you know better and don't do better (good guys who act like bad guys), you are worse than those who don't do better because they just don't know better (bad guys). There IS NO EXCUSE - none. Even if 1/2 their population got decimated - for Israel to wage war against innocent civilians. ZERO excuse whatosover. You can say everything about how evil Hamas is but the actions Israel are taking currently is free will.

So, just to be sure I understand: when a terrorist group invades your country, rapes, slaughters, and kidnaps your citizens, refuses to release the hostages, promises that this one invasion is just the beginning - you're supposed to, what, drink a cup of tea and see what's on TV? That's the appropriate response?

Apparently? People really should read this article reflecting on the Merchant of Venice and how this post October 7 moment fits into the whole deeply ingrained image of the Jew in Western culture. The pro-Marxist trolls and partisans and TikTok attention span morons who dominate this thread are probably incapable of reading a relatively long argument, but the world would be a better place if they could. https://www.tabletmag.com/feature/shylock-at-the-un

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

What are these western values?

Codified individual rights most important by far.

Funnily enough, what Israel is doing in Gaza is entirely allowable (even expected) under traditional value systems. (Ask the victims of the Comanches, to name but one example out of a million).

The entire argument here is about whether Israel is living up to modern western values.

No bill of rights, no constitution, no belief in Western construct of human rights. The principle of inalienable, innate rights that are awarded to all individual human beings does not exist in Israel.

As I said, the argument is not about whether western values exist or have merit; the argument is about whether Israel is living up to those values.

We agree on the question.

OTOH, the poster who questions the very existence and merit of western values can go jump in a lake.

What choice does Israel have in this situation?

ICYMI: America has dropped bombs that decimated entire populations. Why? Because it was the best (albeit terrible) option when the goal was to protect America and minimize the number of american casualties/deaths.

Sometimes countries are forced to make awful military decisions…particularly when powerful countries with military arsenals seem hell bent on wreaking murderous havoc.

It wasn't just about protecting America and minimizing American casualties. It was fundamentally about ending the will of the people to support what were effectively evil, anti-human, states. Perhaps this was more so the case with the Nazis than the Japanese, but at least the Japanese outwardly civilized. There is no evidence the Gaza populace has yet to reject the methods they support through their support of Hamas.