Tutoring to give your child a leg up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you are paying for a tutor for your presumably average child, that is why your child is performing at a higher level. Why is school time insufficient for an average student without a learning disability? If the schools/teachers are so incompetent why not find a better school district or private school rather than paying a tutor? I don’t understand this mentality? Are the schools so bad that you need to do extra? Is 6-8 hours a day in school not enough for a child? How many hours of learning per day is enough for an average student?

I find your logic confusing. If the child is performing at a higher level, then doesn't that mean that the tutoring is useful? Isn't the point to actually learn something??

Also you keep harping on this notion of the average child. Yes, dearie, even parents of average children want their children to do well. They're not trying to masquerade as geniuses, as you seem to be thinking, nobody is saying 'oh look, my child is so smart she was born knowing geometry!'... Such a childish mentality!

How do you, as a parent, know when to decide if your child is learning enough in school? I don’t understand the point of school? Is it just for social interaction?

A child is learning enough when they are consistently stretched just a little bit outside their comfort zone: not too much to get discouraged, not too little to get bored.

School used to provide this for students, really! Even here in the US of A! Are schools really that bad now? Or are the students just so exceptional now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Again, how does a parent of an average kid decide if their child is learning enough when they perform at grade level? Is that not good enough? Your child is not the norm.

Omg, seriously! "Grade level" is a guideline, you can think of it as an average, or maybe even a floor that needs to be met so the children stay on track for appropriate development. Just because a child is performing at grade level doesn't mean they

-- understand the concepts well so that they can continue to build on them

-- wouldn't benefit from more/different support or stimulation

There is virtually no child who is *exactly* at the grade level every day, every year. You meet your kid where they are and nourish their development, whatever that looks like...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is above average, no idea where he is because we have not bothered with testing and I don’t think the NNAT or CoGAT are great proxy tests for intelligence. He has not had a Teacher who has not commented on the fact that he is ahead of his classmates. He does the work his Teachers assign him, he does the work in the extra work folder. He doesn’t complain or disrupt the class. I don’t think that this is a particularly exciting development, he is entering fourth grade. Some kids pick up concepts faster then others, it isn’t a huge deal. He’ll end up in math classes with kids who took a bit longer to learn the concepts then he did and they will probably get similar grades.

That said, right now, entering fourth grade, the math he is presented in class is not challenging for him. I don’t want him to not be challenged and so he attended AoPS in third grade and is moving to The Russian School of Math this year. The math in those classes challenges him. He asks questions and gets some problems wrong. It is good for him to be in an environment where he learns to ask for help and he needs to work at understanding the concepts. Why? Because it is good to develop those skills when you are younger then to be faced for the first time with challenging material when you are in Middle or High School.

As for families who use tutors to help their kids in classes, great. Their parents want the kids to understand the material that is being presented and master it. They see that their kids could use some support. Excellent. I stayed after class or went to school early to get extra help from my Teachers. My parents hired a tutor for a few classes for me because I needed more support. Should I have dropped out of Algebra instead? We even choose the Algebra, Algebra II, Geometry track with no Calculus because I struggled with math. That doesn’t mean I wanted to fail or get C’s in those classes. I worked my butt off and earned A’s. But it was hard work and I needed some support. I fail to see why tutors providing that support was a bad thing.

Make choices that work for your family. I am going to do what I think needs to be done to support my child’s interests and needs. I am thankful that he is far better at math then I ever was. I am thrilled to support his enjoyment of the subject. I also support his love of reading by buying him books and letting him listen to audible books at bed time. Is that too much? Am I giving him a leg up in English class?

Getting some tutoring when struggling or doing extra math because the child loves to do math is not the issue. The issue is that almost all of the children in my child's class are doing Russian math or have tutors. Some do more than an hour of extra math a day and not because they like it but because the parents think it is a good idea. She is going to a very good public school in NYC that has a solid math program with differentiation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, if kids’ parents are able to pay for any additional pricey extra-curriculars, including additional sports coaching and music lessons on top of music lessons, it’s frowned upon, or should be. So, you desperately want your child to stand out amongst the rest, so you do whatever it takes to make that happen. As long as your child is the best, or one of best. Your kid is nothing special, as a matter of fact, if every child received equal hours of tutoring or coaching, your kid would be average at best. I think you’re too afraid to admit this to yourself.

Hmm... let me see if I understand this: are you saying no child should be given opportunities unless all children are given equal opportunities? Race to the bottom, right?

And moreover, are you saying that a parent who tries to give their child opportunities to better themselves is doing that not to in order to develop a kid's potential, but to stick it to other people?

You are doing it to stick it to other people, yes. Why is a full day of school for your average to above average child not enough? Why is an after school sports practice with the team not enough? Is 6 hours a day really not enough learning for your child? You are unintentionally, or intentionally, setting an unattainable standard for many of the other students whose parents cannot afford unnecessary tutoring. It’s unfair, can’t you see that? There are kids who actually need tutoring, they are barely scraping by, yet can’t afford a tutor. While your child, who does just fine on their own merits, needs a tutor to get further ahead, just because? It’s absurd.

Do you always parent based on how other children might feel? I feel sorry for your kids.

Some of us have to work harder than others. Some of us are born with a silver spoon in our mouths; some of us are born pretty or athletic; some of us are born naturally smart.

Life is unfair. No one owes you anything.

-signed a child of poor immigrants who don't speak English.

I am unwilling to pay for additional unnecessary help for my kids. I am not wealthy so I’m unable to pay for unnecessary frivolities. If my child is a mediocre student or athlete, he will simply have to work harder if he wants to improve. Additionally, it’s fine to be mediocre and it’s fine to fail. My kids may be at a disadvantage in that I view life differently than many other parents. I feel much can be learned from working one’s way up and through difficulty. The results may take longer, it won’t be instant gratification, but the lessons learned will be invaluable.

Ok, that's you. But other parents don't feel the same way. The tutorind and prepping is its own "working one's way up". They are just doing it differently. They are putting the effort into it now rather than later. It's not instant gratification. You have to be joking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A child is learning enough when they are consistently stretched just a little bit outside their comfort zone: not too much to get discouraged, not too little to get bored.

School used to provide this for students, really! Even here in the US of A! Are schools really that bad now? Or are the students just so exceptional now?

I think we've just learned a lot about education and how children learn in the last few decades. It's not that children are "so exceptional now" it's that I think more of us parents have realized that children have much more capacity for learning than the US educational system has required of them.

So yes, they can do more advanced math and reading and science than is required, and yes, some parents have realized that, and are taking advantage of new opportunities outside school like Art of Problem Solving, this Russian School of Math thing, etc. Many of these programs are frankly also quite engaging and fun... I love learning and I would have absolutely loved to have some of these apps and programs growing up...

I hear you that some parents are nutso over-scheduling their kids and being hypercompetitive, etc. I'm just pointing out that there can be true value in it as well, without it being an obnoxious narcissistic thing... (And by the way, I don't necessarily think private schools are that much better at meeting kids' potential either... )

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is above average, no idea where he is because we have not bothered with testing and I don’t think the NNAT or CoGAT are great proxy tests for intelligence. He has not had a Teacher who has not commented on the fact that he is ahead of his classmates. He does the work his Teachers assign him, he does the work in the extra work folder. He doesn’t complain or disrupt the class. I don’t think that this is a particularly exciting development, he is entering fourth grade. Some kids pick up concepts faster then others, it isn’t a huge deal. He’ll end up in math classes with kids who took a bit longer to learn the concepts then he did and they will probably get similar grades.

That said, right now, entering fourth grade, the math he is presented in class is not challenging for him. I don’t want him to not be challenged and so he attended AoPS in third grade and is moving to The Russian School of Math this year. The math in those classes challenges him. He asks questions and gets some problems wrong. It is good for him to be in an environment where he learns to ask for help and he needs to work at understanding the concepts. Why? Because it is good to develop those skills when you are younger then to be faced for the first time with challenging material when you are in Middle or High School.

As for families who use tutors to help their kids in classes, great. Their parents want the kids to understand the material that is being presented and master it. They see that their kids could use some support. Excellent. I stayed after class or went to school early to get extra help from my Teachers. My parents hired a tutor for a few classes for me because I needed more support. Should I have dropped out of Algebra instead? We even choose the Algebra, Algebra II, Geometry track with no Calculus because I struggled with math. That doesn’t mean I wanted to fail or get C’s in those classes. I worked my butt off and earned A’s. But it was hard work and I needed some support. I fail to see why tutors providing that support was a bad thing.

Make choices that work for your family. I am going to do what I think needs to be done to support my child’s interests and needs. I am thankful that he is far better at math then I ever was. I am thrilled to support his enjoyment of the subject. I also support his love of reading by buying him books and letting him listen to audible books at bed time. Is that too much? Am I giving him a leg up in English class?

Getting some tutoring when struggling or doing extra math because the child loves to do math is not the issue. The issue is that almost all of the children in my child's class are doing Russian math or have tutors. Some do more than an hour of extra math a day and not because they like it but because the parents think it is a good idea. She is going to a very good public school in NYC that has a solid math program with differentiation.

Agree. It’s a competitive pressure cooker we are creating for our kids.

[Anonymous]

Attending school after school is now an extra curricular activity. Apparently that’s what students need to do now. Go to school twice a day because the kids LOVE it! They just absolutely love to learn from 7am-7pm every day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Attending school after school is now an extra curricular activity. Apparently that’s what students need to do now. Go to school twice a day because the kids LOVE it! They just absolutely love to learn from 7am-7pm every day.

An hour of robotics club or art or drama or chess or coding is hardly an extra day of school. Some kids are in SACC from 7 AM to whatever time it closes the extra curricular options can be a nice way to socialize with other kids and pass the time. The percentage of kids spending 2 hours a day in a school like environment for academics is small. My kid does RSM and that is 2 hours on Sunday morning. We don’t go to Church and he doesn’t have Sunday school. He has friends who attend Hebrew school and Chinese school, is that awful?

Come High School parents want their kids to belong to clubs and extra curricular activities because it is good for socialization and college applications.

You do you.

[Anonymous]

Again, how does a parent of an average kid decide if their child is learning enough when they perform at grade level? Is that not good enough? Your child is not the norm.

The programs my kid does, like RSM and AoPS, have evaluations that kids have to take. My kid tests into the higher levels of their programs. A kid on grade level would test into a different level of their programs or would not be accepted. A parent can choose to accept the performance evaluations from these programs or go looking for a program that is fine with simply taking their money.

There is nothing wrong with enrichment through other programs or after school clubs. They provide a different way to learn material, which might be more interesting to a kid, and socialization. That is a good thing. And parents who hire tutors to help shore up their kids skills are trying to help their kid and there is nothing wrong with that.

DS enjoys baseball but has not interest in baseball camp or extra practice. He is not as good as other kids on his team but it doesn’t stop him from enjoying playing. He practices with his team and plays his games and has fun. He is learning and growing in a different way. He chooses to spend more time learning math. I was the kid practicing sports all the time and avoiding math so I am not going to pretend that I understand but I support his love of math, even if I don’t get it. He has teammates who are enrolled in 2-3 baseball camps this summer and are out in the backyard practicing all the time. They love it. They are also more skilled then my kid. I think that is fine. Different kids, different interests.

[Anonymous]

Let’s face it - this came from South Korean immigrants who wanted a leg up on life. It’s called a Hagwon - and it’s here to stay...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let’s face it - this came from South Korean immigrants who wanted a leg up on life. It’s called a Hagwon - and it’s here to stay...

No, it's not here to stay. Children of immigrants become Americanized. They'll realize that "afterschooling" is unnecessary and they won't do it to their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s face it - this came from South Korean immigrants who wanted a leg up on life. It’s called a Hagwon - and it’s here to stay...

No, it's not here to stay. Children of immigrants become Americanized. They'll realize that "afterschooling" is unnecessary and they won't do it to their kids.

It’s actually not a bad idea, attend a program after school to help with any difficulties and ultimately prepare students for a potential career. However this should be accessible to all students. Not familiar with Korea but many areas, especially the northeast pay astronomical property taxes. Why can’t public schools provide something like a hagwon? Years ago when I attended public school, we did have something similar and older students, parents and some teachers/TAs taught courses for a very small fee, courses included languages, arts/crafts, music, economics, STEM, etc. and this was in ES in the 80s. Unfortunately, this is long gone now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let’s face it - this came from South Korean immigrants who wanted a leg up on life. It’s called a Hagwon - and it’s here to stay...

Koreans are not the only culture to tutor kids. Yes, hagwons are rampant but it’s not like that idea is unique to Korea.. Tutoring/extracurriculars are commonplace in all major US metro centers (SF, NyC, DC, LA, BOS, etc). Parents found schools underperforming or wanted more competition so had to step in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s face it - this came from South Korean immigrants who wanted a leg up on life. It’s called a Hagwon - and it’s here to stay...

Koreans are not the only culture to tutor kids. Yes, hagwons are rampant but it’s not like that idea is unique to Korea.. Tutoring/extracurriculars are commonplace in all major US metro centers (SF, NyC, DC, LA, BOS, etc). Parents found schools underperforming or wanted more competition so had to step in

Agreed - but I think what the original op was seeing was where South Korea is now. School becomes something to attend (and sleep through) while Hagwon goes until 11:00 at night to get an education of value. Read ‘The Smartest Kids in the World,’ and you will see where this is all headed - in all the competitive cities you just listed. Was just saying I think the Koreans are the pace-setters...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s face it - this came from South Korean immigrants who wanted a leg up on life. It’s called a Hagwon - and it’s here to stay...

Koreans are not the only culture to tutor kids. Yes, hagwons are rampant but it’s not like that idea is unique to Korea.. Tutoring/extracurriculars are commonplace in all major US metro centers (SF, NyC, DC, LA, BOS, etc). Parents found schools underperforming or wanted more competition so had to step in

Agreed - but I think what the original op was seeing was where South Korea is now. School becomes something to attend (and sleep through) while Hagwon goes until 11:00 at night to get an education of value. Read ‘The Smartest Kids in the World,’ and you will see where this is all headed - in all the competitive cities you just listed. Was just saying I think the Koreans are the pace-setters...

According to many parents, students are basically wasting time all day in school. Their children are bored with the material being taught in public school. They then blame the schools and teachers for not catering to them. You must acknowledge than most students are not doing extra work after school, the schools have a curriculum based on what the majority of students should know. By going to school twice a day, yes, your child will be, should be, bored in public school. That is your problem. Certainly, kids don’t, or shouldn’t, need to learn for 12-15 hrs per day. I believe most parents paying for these programs after school want to believe their children are exceptional, or they are forcing them to become exceptional, by way of these programs/tutoring. Couldn’t it be more streamlined than this? The Korean hagwons cause severe mental health issues in lots of kids. Is this really what we want to create here, isn’t the pressure enough already? Move to Korea and teach English if you believe it’s better there.