Capitol Hill Middle School and High School situation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dunbar also operated for decades under a de facto intra-racial discriminatory system. Now retired Washington Post columnist Colbert King, who was a Dunbar graduate, used to write about how Dunbar had a strong preference for admitting light-skinned students who came from the highest AA socio-economic strata in DC at the time, and that it was not easy being a darker-complected student. As in New Orleans, there are many levels to AA society in DC which white transplants (and many white Washingtonians) do not understand.

Extremely interesting, thank you! I agree that those levels within AA society get completely lost here and are invisible to many white parents.

[Anonymous]

?? SWS is not known for supporting advanced learners. They are pretty transparent that they are geared to helping kids who struggle.

[Anonymous]

Not PP, but SWW (the high school), NOT SWS, the elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yep. I'd bet on Eastern over Dunbar for sure. But have you considered the Coolidge feeder group, OP? I know it's farther north, but you get more house for your money and I think the middle and high schools up there show promise.

It's important to understand that you can live near Wheatley and go to a charter or a nearby DCPS too. Maybe not for PK3 but after that it is pretty easy to get into Langdon, Langley, and Burroughs just to name a few. The thing about Ward 5 is there are a ton of charters and acceptable DCPS elementaries too, so something is sure to work out. I think Brookland Middle is on the upswing as well.

Langdon, Langley, and Burroughs are not particularly close to the IB Wheatley territory (which I think is just Trinidad/Ivy City?). You'd probably be better off aiming for JO Wilson, and maybe hoping to get lucky with a spot at Ludlow-Taylor, CHML, or one fo the Two Rivers Campuses. All of those are much more convenient to Trinidad than any of the other Ward 5 DCPS schools. It's actually a shame Wheatley is a K-8, because with the development in that neighborhood, I think a PK-5 campus there could probably do very well with some time and attention, and then feed to Eliot Hine, Eastern. But yes, it's very hard to turn around a K-8. It makes for a very unwieldy dynamic and who will constantly lose students whose parents look at the 6-8 grades and realize they can't stick around. That impacts your early grades, too. One reason some of the CH elementaries have done a better job retaining students through 5th is that MS is a natural breaking point for kids to leave the feeder if that's what families want, allowing kids to stay with their original cohort at least through elementary.

It's actually weird at this point that Trinidad is zoned for Ward 5. It's cut off from most of the rest of the Ward. I get that Florida Ave makes a natural boundary, but it would make a lot more sense for Trindidad to be zoned for Eastern than Dunbar. Eastern is a 20 minute walk, Dunbar is a 40-60 minute walk or a bus ride/drive through some of the worst traffic in the city. I can't imagine making that commute daily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. I'd bet on Eastern over Dunbar for sure. But have you considered the Coolidge feeder group, OP? I know it's farther north, but you get more house for your money and I think the middle and high schools up there show promise.

It's important to understand that you can live near Wheatley and go to a charter or a nearby DCPS too. Maybe not for PK3 but after that it is pretty easy to get into Langdon, Langley, and Burroughs just to name a few. The thing about Ward 5 is there are a ton of charters and acceptable DCPS elementaries too, so something is sure to work out. I think Brookland Middle is on the upswing as well.

Langdon, Langley, and Burroughs are not particularly close to the IB Wheatley territory (which I think is just Trinidad/Ivy City?). You'd probably be better off aiming for JO Wilson, and maybe hoping to get lucky with a spot at Ludlow-Taylor, CHML, or one fo the Two Rivers Campuses. All of those are much more convenient to Trinidad than any of the other Ward 5 DCPS schools. It's actually a shame Wheatley is a K-8, because with the development in that neighborhood, I think a PK-5 campus there could probably do very well with some time and attention, and then feed to Eliot Hine, Eastern. But yes, it's very hard to turn around a K-8. It makes for a very unwieldy dynamic and who will constantly lose students whose parents look at the 6-8 grades and realize they can't stick around. That impacts your early grades, too. One reason some of the CH elementaries have done a better job retaining students through 5th is that MS is a natural breaking point for kids to leave the feeder if that's what families want, allowing kids to stay with their original cohort at least through elementary.

It's actually weird at this point that Trinidad is zoned for Ward 5. It's cut off from most of the rest of the Ward. I get that Florida Ave makes a natural boundary, but it would make a lot more sense for Trindidad to be zoned for Eastern than Dunbar. Eastern is a 20 minute walk, Dunbar is a 40-60 minute walk or a bus ride/drive through some of the worst traffic in the city. I can't imagine making that commute daily.

In the 2014 boundary review process there was talk of having Wheatley and Browne feed to McKinley Middle. Not sure what happened but the idea was dropped. I think it is hard to run a small PK-8th because there aren't enough kids in each grade to support a lot of choices and activities that tweens tend to want. But it does provide some sibling convenience and gives elementary parents and the elementary principal lot more control over the middle school grades. Pros and cons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A middle school cannot succeed broadly without a majority of students (not 90% but something above 2/3s) that arrive at grade level. The same for high schools. DCPS is unwilling to make changes to feeder patterns to ensure that a high percentage of the students in Capital Hill middle schools are prepared, SH comes closest. Because of the lack of successful middle schools, there is not a chance that neighborhood high schools will have enough prepared students.

That plus parents are unwilling to let their children be social experiments.

Charters provide families with alternative pathways.

It all equals a poor chance of a critical mass of prepared students at more than SH. SH has been on the brink of wide acceptance as a great option for as long as I have been reading DCUM and my kids are in middle (Deal) and high school (SWW).

FWIW, my older child attends SWW and has multiple friends from SH and they are very academically successful (and delightful) kids.

LOL. How many charter schools in DC actually meet your 2/3 metric?

And can we please dispense with this “social experiment” language? It’s both offensive and cliche.

Please point me to the middle schools that are successful without a majority of the students at grade level when students enter the school? They do not need to be in DC, show then to me anywhere. I am not being sarcastic, I would love to learn I am wrong.

I am sorry you do not like how I phrased it, but I have seen no evidence that parents that have a choice will send their children to a failing school in large enough numbers to make a difference. It is a chicken/egg problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A middle school cannot succeed broadly without a majority of students (not 90% but something above 2/3s) that arrive at grade level. The same for high schools. DCPS is unwilling to make changes to feeder patterns to ensure that a high percentage of the students in Capital Hill middle schools are prepared, SH comes closest. Because of the lack of successful middle schools, there is not a chance that neighborhood high schools will have enough prepared students.

That plus parents are unwilling to let their children be social experiments.

Charters provide families with alternative pathways.

It all equals a poor chance of a critical mass of prepared students at more than SH. SH has been on the brink of wide acceptance as a great option for as long as I have been reading DCUM and my kids are in middle (Deal) and high school (SWW).

FWIW, my older child attends SWW and has multiple friends from SH and they are very academically successful (and delightful) kids.

LOL. How many charter schools in DC actually meet your 2/3 metric?

And can we please dispense with this “social experiment” language? It’s both offensive and cliche.

Please point me to the middle schools that are successful without a majority of the students at grade level when students enter the school? They do not need to be in DC, show then to me anywhere. I am not being sarcastic, I would love to learn I am wrong.

I am sorry you do not like how I phrased it, but I have seen no evidence that parents that have a choice will send their children to a failing school in large enough numbers to make a difference. It is a chicken/egg problem.

Well it depends how you define "successful." It's no secret that, as a general matter, white kids in DC have enormous socioeconomic advantages over black kids. So let's do an apples-to-apples comparisons between Deal and the three Ward 6 public middle schools. Here are the percentages of white students who meet or exceed expectations in ELA and math at each school, according to the latest PARCC results:

Deal: 94.6% ELA, 80.8% math

Eliot-Hine: 85.7% ELA, 85.7% math

Stuart-Hobson: 92.7% ELA, 72.2% math

Jefferson: 100% ELA, 90.9% math

[Anonymous]

That’s not apples to apples unless you adjust for the population differentials. Jefferson has very few White kids while Deal is majority white. So percentages in that context are meaningless— if there are 4 white kids at Jefferson, then just one kid testing lower would take your percentage from 100 to 75.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That’s not apples to apples unless you adjust for the population differentials. Jefferson has very few White kids while Deal is majority white. So percentages in that context are meaningless— if there are 4 white kids at Jefferson, then just one kid testing lower would take your percentage from 100 to 75.

I provided the results for all three Ward 6 middle schools (not just Jefferson). The total number of white test takers at the three schools was 80, which is statistically significant.

And the demographic-specific results for each school are only reported if there are at least 10 students within the demographic, so your example would never come into play, at least not publicly

And Deal is not actually majority white.

[Anonymous]

How are the entire student bodies doing at those schools, not just the white kids? I have asked about successful middle schools, not just schools where white kids can succeed. (and by white kids in DC I mean advantaged kids because, unlike many other places, most white kids in DC are children of educated parents that elect to live here)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How are the entire student bodies doing at those schools, not just the white kids? I have asked about successful middle schools, not just schools where white kids can succeed. (and by white kids in DC I mean advantaged kids because, unlike many other places, most white kids in DC are children of educated parents that elect to live here)

You seem to be wanting it both ways.

You appear to concede that test results are largely a reflection of demographics. Yet you want to judge the success of a schools based on "entire student bodies" despite huge demographic disparities between schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are the entire student bodies doing at those schools, not just the white kids? I have asked about successful middle schools, not just schools where white kids can succeed. (and by white kids in DC I mean advantaged kids because, unlike many other places, most white kids in DC are children of educated parents that elect to live here)

You seem to be wanting it both ways.

You appear to concede that test results are largely a reflection of demographics. Yet you want to judge the success of a schools based on "entire student bodies" despite huge demographic disparities between schools.

I asked about successful middle schools and I did not limit it to the white kids. If you want the high performing non-white children to go there you better be able to show more than the white kids do well.

DC has done extremely well in early childhood education, why was that successful and their attempts improve middle schools mostly a failure?

DC has high performing magnet high schools and Wilson. Why is that? Why is Banneker such a huge success for AA students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are the entire student bodies doing at those schools, not just the white kids? I have asked about successful middle schools, not just schools where white kids can succeed. (and by white kids in DC I mean advantaged kids because, unlike many other places, most white kids in DC are children of educated parents that elect to live here)

You seem to be wanting it both ways.

You appear to concede that test results are largely a reflection of demographics. Yet you want to judge the success of a schools based on "entire student bodies" despite huge demographic disparities between schools.

I asked about successful middle schools and I did not limit it to the white kids. If you want the high performing non-white children to go there you better be able to show more than the white kids do well.

DC has done extremely well in early childhood education, why was that successful and their attempts improve middle schools mostly a failure?

DC has high performing magnet high schools and Wilson. Why is that? Why is Banneker such a huge success for AA students?

I'm having a hard time understanding your definition of "high performing."

Only 9.9 percent of black students at Wilson meet or exceed expectations for math. By contrast, at Jefferson, 18.3 of black students meet or exceed math expectations (and 33.7% meet or exceed ELA expectations).

So do you believe that Wilson is able to show that "more than white kids do well." How about Jefferson?

[Anonymous]

Back in the 1990s, Jefferson had the reputation for being the de facto magnet middle school for non-white kids. Not sure what the history behind it was---most "unofficial" programs back then were due to the focus and efforts of the principal in charge, e.g., Patrick Pope's unofficial arts feeder from Hardy to Ellington in the pre-Michelle Rhee days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:RE: OPs questions about how Charters fit in to all of this.

Charters are fairly new to the party, but very important. They here in 1996 after the School Reform Act passed in 1995.

Prior to Charter schools being legalized in DC, parents of all races who were seeking an alternative to their assigned neighborhood school practiced "school choice" in other ways.

What did this look like?:

It looked like many families using the Out of Boundary lottery to gain spots into a feeder system from elementary--->middle--->High School.

It looked like students heading to the upper northwest school that fed into Hardy or Deal and then to Wilson.

It looked like families from east of the Anacostia River ( and Maryland, don't forget Maryland ) using all the unused spots at Capitol Hill Elementary Schools or at Eastern High School, all considered better than their assigned schools and convenient to federal jobs downtown.

It looked like white and black Capitol Hill Parents forming the Cluster Schools here on Ward 6: Peabody--->Watkins---->Stuart Hobson---->Magnet HS or private

It looked like families forming a magnet Montessori program called Capitol Hill Montessori

It looked like families forming a Reggio Emilia early childhood program within Peabody called "School within a School"

It looked like families starting the Spanish Immersion Program at Tyler Elementary

It looked like a de-facto STEM magnet program at Jefferson Middle School that was extremely well-regarded by many Black families in the city and was eventually peeled off its normal feeder system to feed to....Wilson HS ( crazy, but it was only recently changed to Eastern).

It looked like a number of White and Black Capitol Hill families sending their children through Out of Boundary slots to Key Elementary in Georgetown which fed to Hardy MS and then Wilson HS.

It looked like the excellent magnet High Schools Ellington, SWW and Banneker.

So families in DC who had the interest and where-with-all to navigate it, there was always a degree of school choice within the DCPS system before charters.

During the 2000's a number of things happened at the same time:

1)the demographics on Capitol Hill began to shift toward more young families moving in and hoping to use the public schools

2) The School Reform movement gained steam including
-- the ability to form Charter Schools
--Universal free PK3 and PK4 began
--Michelle Rhee arrived with her broom
--many school closings

Suddenly, it was more difficult for families living outside the zone to get a spot at the Cluster Schools, or at Key Elementary.

Suddenly, there was free, full-time childcare for 3 and 4 year-olds at the neighborhood DCPS schools---a real draw for dual-income families in houses that were beginning to become ridiculously expensive.

With these pressures on the system, Capitol Hill parents simultaneously formed Brent Neighbors to build a bridge for in-boundary families to attend Brent ES AND many Capitol Hill families became involved on the ground floor of forming Two Rivers Public Charter School.

So the school choice options widened for Cap Hill parents beyond just the Cluster Schools or Key ES and this momentum built on itself as more Charter Schools appeared on the scene and more movements started at Maury, Ludlow-Taylor, Payne and JO Wilson for families living in those zones to use their in-boundary schools.

The momentum kept building, like a dialectic--more parents found options for educating their children in the public schools ( including Charter Schools ) so more families decided to stay and more families decided they could move in.

Now, city-wide, around 43% of public school children attend Charter Schools, and a larger percentage of children attend their in-boundary school ( at least in Ward 6/Capitol Hill).

How does this look at the Middle School level and High School level vis-a-vis Charters? Well, as those in-boundary little kids using Brent and Maury began to approach 3rd, 4th, 5th grade, parents began to wonder what the next step would be: Stuart Hobson? maybe--but slots weren't guaranteed, and maybe there was a better option out there somehow.

Parents began looking at Eliot-Hine and Jefferson, wondering if those were or could become good options for middle school, since they were the feeder middle schools for Maury and Brent, respectively.

Groups formed and began discussions with DCPS and Michelle Rhee about these feeder patterns and how these schools could "reform" to become desireable pulls for in-boundary families.

( That's a whole other story--but perhaps a digression )

At the same time as parents were sizing up Eliot-Hine and Jefferson with questions about Eastern HS ( which had a major reboot in that era ) on the high school horizon, parents began to look at Washington Latin--in Northwest as a promising option that would include middle AND high school solutions in one move.

Lots ( not all--Stuart Hobson was also drawing some---even Brent parents who hopped over to Watkins for the upper elementary grades to guarantee access in the feeder system) of Capitol Hill parents opted for Washington Latin, and soon after, BASIS opened downtown--so convenient--which also gave options for middle school and high school.

Then came DCI and Inspired Teaching and Montessori Bilingual... many of these Charter Schools began in 5th grade, so pulled those in-boundary fifth graders at the Capitol Hill Elementary Schools away before they considered seriously using Eliot-Hine or Jefferson.

Meanwhile--Two Rivers Charter School had a good hold on many Capitol Hill families and expanded through middle school. Now has opened a second campus.

And Washington Latin is set to open a second campus.

For sure, I've missed a lot of nuance and details and perspectives that others can fill in. It's not a neat, easy linear story and so difficult to sum up.

But here's the rub: Charter Schools have supplemented an informal school choice scenario that already existed and added to the positive momentum around public schooling in DC. The neighborhood schools are doing better than ever, and public school population in general has far better rates of success on measures like graduation rates, PARCC scores and NAEP scores.

All of this continues to evolve, and we have yet to see how the cataclysm of the pandemic will affect the public school landscape. It will have impacts, it's just unknowable at the moment what they will be.

We moved to the Hill young and way before kids -- 2006. I remember going to Argonaut and parents having dinner pushing us to send our unborn kids to Maury. This posters thread is the bible of Hill schools.