White Latinos and affirmative action

[Anonymous]

OP, you need to understand that most Latinos are technically part white and skin shades vary widely across Central and South America. "White Latino" is redundant.

You may be saying that only those who are economically disadvantaged should get any sort of favoritism in admission. That is your opinion. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mestizos are the racial majority of Mexico. So to clarify, OP thinks that White Latinos (aka Mestizos) should deny their Hispanic/Latino ethnicity on apps because they are the children of conquistadors. Or is it only the ones with light skin? (Wait, what's ethnicity again?)

I think you're saying that by now, most folks have a mix of backgrounds and it's too hard to separate out the oppressors from the oppressed ... Which I think I agree with.

But at least concede there are folks from Latin America who are mismatches for affirmative action. Take Jair Bolsonaro for example. What if after completing his military career, he moved to the US instead of going into politics? His parents are Italian and German, but he grew up in Brazil. Should his kids benefit from affirmative action in the US?

If he is not a US citizen or permanent resident, his race and ethnicity are not relevant, as they are not included in the numbers colleges report to the federal govt.

There is no "affirmative action" box to check in the application. There is no single "affirmative action" national policy. Affirmative action is not the same thing as a diversity goal. According to you, rich Latinos aren't really Latinos and should lie, check no in response to the question.

Check whatever box is accurate. There clearly are a broad range of people who can accurately call themselves Latino, and regardless of skin tone or wealth, have every right to be proud of their background and nothing to apologize for.

Also, I take your point on diversity: colleges that are curating a diverse environment can do so without regard to past oppression.

On the question of affirmative action: Are you saying there is no such thing for Latinos? For the Jair Bolsonaro hypothetical, assume he became a naturalized US citizen. Should his children benefit from affirmative action?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Even if they’re wealthy, their presence is valuable to the school. I don’t have a problem with this. Why insist that class diversity and ethnic diversity be provided by the same kids?

You’re only looking at the benefit to the student, not the benefit to the institution.

+1 Colleges aren't looking to create a campus environment where all of the rich kids are white and all of the non-white kids are poor. Why should that be a goal?

Why would all the rich kids be white without affirmative action? Plenty of minority candidates are well qualified on their own merits.

OP's entire complaint is about kids that are qualified on their own merits but she still thinks the only reason they got in is affirmative action. To wit:

Like with many affirmative action cases, these kids are obviously qualified but the race box is what pushed them over the edge above a white or asian student

So the child of conquistadors gets the hacienda AND the reparations?

I think a lot of the "You can't sure of all the facts" responses like this are sidestepping the underlying question posed by OP. Are you asserting that white latinos never benefit from affirmative action? Or just saying "we can't be sure" and leaving it at that?

I'm not sidestepping anything. I said explicitly in my first response that there is no reason they should not benefit, if that's what happened, because affirmative action is not just for poor people.

Both of OP's premises - that white Latinos are only getting into college on affirmative action, even if they're qualified applicants, AND that white Latinos are cheating the system by listing their ethnicity because it might qualify them for affirmative action that she thinks they should not be entitled to - are false and offensive.

Meant to put this at the bottom: So the child of conquistadors gets both the hacienda AND the reparations?

Affirmative action in college admissions is not intended to repay applicants for the good deeds of their ancestors. It's intended to achieve a diverse student body and counterbalance historic discrimination, which was not limited to people with darker skin tones. Latinos have been discriminated against based on color, but also language, religion, and cultural customs.

That is true for ALL non-whites in US but they do not receive AA preferential treatment based on race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Check whatever box is accurate. There clearly are a broad range of people who can accurately call themselves Latino, and regardless of skin tone or wealth, have every right to be proud of their background and nothing to apologize for.

Also, I take your point on diversity: colleges that are curating a diverse environment can do so without regard to past oppression.

On the question of affirmative action: Are you saying there is no such thing for Latinos? For the Jair Bolsonaro hypothetical, assume he became a naturalized US citizen. Should his children benefit from affirmative action?

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to by "affirmative action" is. There are no check-boxes or officially stated policies.

Colleges do not divulge whether they may favor a particular applicant in part due to ethnicity. Their reason could be diversity rather than "affirmative action." If you have no problem with a college's "diversity" goal and with the rich Latino accurately checking yes in response to the question, then it's not clear who you are intending to complain to/about. The colleges, for favoring Latinos of all income levels (to the extent that some do this)? The govt, for collecting this info from the colleges and thereby encouraging the colleges to favor Latinos in admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if they’re wealthy, their presence is valuable to the school. I don’t have a problem with this. Why insist that class diversity and ethnic diversity be provided by the same kids?

You’re only looking at the benefit to the student, not the benefit to the institution.

+1 Colleges aren't looking to create a campus environment where all of the rich kids are white and all of the non-white kids are poor. Why should that be a goal?

Why would all the rich kids be white without affirmative action? Plenty of minority candidates are well qualified on their own merits.

OP's entire complaint is about kids that are qualified on their own merits but she still thinks the only reason they got in is affirmative action. To wit:

Like with many affirmative action cases, these kids are obviously qualified but the race box is what pushed them over the edge above a white or asian student

So the child of conquistadors gets the hacienda AND the reparations?

I think a lot of the "You can't sure of all the facts" responses like this are sidestepping the underlying question posed by OP. Are you asserting that white latinos never benefit from affirmative action? Or just saying "we can't be sure" and leaving it at that?

I'm not sidestepping anything. I said explicitly in my first response that there is no reason they should not benefit, if that's what happened, because affirmative action is not just for poor people.

Both of OP's premises - that white Latinos are only getting into college on affirmative action, even if they're qualified applicants, AND that white Latinos are cheating the system by listing their ethnicity because it might qualify them for affirmative action that she thinks they should not be entitled to - are false and offensive.

Meant to put this at the bottom: So the child of conquistadors gets both the hacienda AND the reparations?

Affirmative action in college admissions is not intended to repay applicants for the good deeds of their ancestors. It's intended to achieve a diverse student body and counterbalance historic discrimination, which was not limited to people with darker skin tones. Latinos have been discriminated against based on color, but also language, religion, and cultural customs.

That is true for ALL non-whites in US but they do not receive AA preferential treatment based on race.

It might be a record for DCUM that it took this long for someone to get mad at an imaginary black kid on a thread about a white kid checking the Hispanic ethnicity box. Is this place actually getting better or is it just quiet because it's the weekend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if they’re wealthy, their presence is valuable to the school. I don’t have a problem with this. Why insist that class diversity and ethnic diversity be provided by the same kids?

You’re only looking at the benefit to the student, not the benefit to the institution.

+1 Colleges aren't looking to create a campus environment where all of the rich kids are white and all of the non-white kids are poor. Why should that be a goal?

Why would all the rich kids be white without affirmative action? Plenty of minority candidates are well qualified on their own merits.

OP's entire complaint is about kids that are qualified on their own merits but she still thinks the only reason they got in is affirmative action. To wit:

Like with many affirmative action cases, these kids are obviously qualified but the race box is what pushed them over the edge above a white or asian student

So the child of conquistadors gets the hacienda AND the reparations?

I think a lot of the "You can't sure of all the facts" responses like this are sidestepping the underlying question posed by OP. Are you asserting that white latinos never benefit from affirmative action? Or just saying "we can't be sure" and leaving it at that?

I'm not sidestepping anything. I said explicitly in my first response that there is no reason they should not benefit, if that's what happened, because affirmative action is not just for poor people.

Both of OP's premises - that white Latinos are only getting into college on affirmative action, even if they're qualified applicants, AND that white Latinos are cheating the system by listing their ethnicity because it might qualify them for affirmative action that she thinks they should not be entitled to - are false and offensive.

Meant to put this at the bottom: So the child of conquistadors gets both the hacienda AND the reparations?

Affirmative action in college admissions is not intended to repay applicants for the good deeds of their ancestors. It's intended to achieve a diverse student body and counterbalance historic discrimination, which was not limited to people with darker skin tones. Latinos have been discriminated against based on color, but also language, religion, and cultural customs.

That is true for ALL non-whites in US but they do not receive AA preferential treatment based on race.

It might be a record for DCUM that it took this long for someone to get mad at an imaginary black kid on a thread about a white kid checking the Hispanic ethnicity box. Is this place actually getting better or is it just quiet because it's the weekend?

Don't get your panties in a knot. A= Affirmative Action. Not everything is about Blacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Check whatever box is accurate. There clearly are a broad range of people who can accurately call themselves Latino, and regardless of skin tone or wealth, have every right to be proud of their background and nothing to apologize for.

Also, I take your point on diversity: colleges that are curating a diverse environment can do so without regard to past oppression.

On the question of affirmative action: Are you saying there is no such thing for Latinos? For the Jair Bolsonaro hypothetical, assume he became a naturalized US citizen. Should his children benefit from affirmative action?

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to by "affirmative action" is. There are no check-boxes or officially stated policies.

Colleges do not divulge whether they may favor a particular applicant in part due to ethnicity. Their reason could be diversity rather than "affirmative action." If you have no problem with a college's "diversity" goal and with the rich Latino accurately checking yes in response to the question, then it's not clear who you are intending to complain to/about. The colleges, for favoring Latinos of all income levels (to the extent that some do this)? The govt, for collecting this info from the colleges and thereby encouraging the colleges to favor Latinos in admissions?

Not complaining about how people fill out the boxes ... It's a policy question.

Step past the 'we don't know how they do it' defense and ask yourself: If you were in charge of a college admissions process, how would you do it and why?

I think the 'kids of naturalized Jair Bolsonaro' hypothetical could be instructive if you didn't run from it. Would you as an admissions director favor them b/c Latino background if they're of 100% European descent? If so, why? To the extent the answer is something like: "Some Brazilian American culture might enrich the learning environment here," I think that makes sense. To the extent the answer is "Well we used to have a more explicit affirmative action policy here until a series of SCOTUS decisions required us achieve our goals in less explicit ways," you may not be achieving the goals of affirmative action, which is to counteract historical and present day oppression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t understand what you want my kids to do, do you want them to lie about their race/Heritage because they aren’t brown enough for you? We speak Spanish at home is that enough?

Legit question ... I have a two-part response:

First: For your own family and kids, I'd say fill out the forms accurately and let the chips fall as they do. Some forms have categories for "non-caucusian hispanic descent" and I guess that involves a judgment call about caucasian or not (your question about "brown enough") ... But the system is the system. I see no reason to deviate based on this discussion.

Second: On the larger policy question, I'm curious: If you were designing the system, would you provide an affirmative action advantage to families like yours, and if so, why (or why not)? From my POV, I could see a broad range of edifying responses to this, and lots of interesting questions in response (e.g. If yes for you, what about the Irish, etc)

I was the PP and my kids would be hispanics Caucasian. Argentines. White as can be. Family in South American for hundreds of years.

Second question is interesting because MY family is Irish in America for 75 years and my immigrant grandparents faced a lot of discrimination in Boston when they arrived.

I don’t know how to quantify that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not an affirmative action basher. I get it. I believe we need to take active steps to dismantle systems of oppression and I think this includes bringing underrepresented groups into elite schools even if its at the expense of others. I do think it should be class based rather than race based but that's a longer out thing. Here's my complaint for today: I keep seeing wealthy white Latino students from DD's school getting into top colleges. Like with many affirmative action cases, these kids are obviously qualified but the race box is what pushed them over the edge above a white or asian student. But here's the difference. These children don’t come from marginalized groups. Not only do these students present as white but they are almost universally upper class. Latin America has a race based class system like the US does. White Latinos are the oppressors in the same way WASPs have been in the US. It's ignorant and counterproductive to allow them to benefit from affirmative action. They don't need it to fight generations of oppression. I cannot think of a way to exclude these students from affirmative action without also boxing out peers from the same regions who have been negatively impacted by the colonizers so I don't think there's anything that can be done but it frustrates me to no end. I guess we've circled back to the need for affirmative action to be class based.

You're not the authority on minorities' experiences. You don't know what those of us who can "pass" as white in certain situations have had to endure, whether it's based on our obviously non-white names or seeing how our parents are treated. Kindly F off.

Amen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not an affirmative action basher. I get it. I believe we need to take active steps to dismantle systems of oppression and I think this includes bringing underrepresented groups into elite schools even if its at the expense of others. I do think it should be class based rather than race based but that's a longer out thing. Here's my complaint for today: I keep seeing wealthy white Latino students from DD's school getting into top colleges. Like with many affirmative action cases, these kids are obviously qualified but the race box is what pushed them over the edge above a white or asian student. But here's the difference. These children don’t come from marginalized groups. Not only do these students present as white but they are almost universally upper class. Latin America has a race based class system like the US does. White Latinos are the oppressors in the same way WASPs have been in the US. It's ignorant and counterproductive to allow them to benefit from affirmative action. They don't need it to fight generations of oppression. I cannot think of a way to exclude these students from affirmative action without also boxing out peers from the same regions who have been negatively impacted by the colonizers so I don't think there's anything that can be done but it frustrates me to no end. I guess we've circled back to the need for affirmative action to be class based.

You're not the authority on minorities' experiences. You don't know what those of us who can "pass" as white in certain situations have had to endure, whether it's based on our obviously non-white names or seeing how our parents are treated. Kindly F off.

Amen.

I reject this line of argument.

It's true that I'm not the authority on all minorities' experiences (both 'protected class' minorities and otherwise), and I'm not questioning the validity of anyone's lived experience, or pretending to know all about it.

But if a white person in the USA wants to benefit from affirmative action, they should at least be able to make the case for it. It's a public policy issue in a democracy, where everyone has a vote and a voice.