Nice White Parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone written Nice Asian Parents yet? Or Competitive Indian Parents? Or Demanding Russian Parents? Or are they exempt from the consequences of their parenting, which is exactly the same as UMC white people?

The difference is that they’re faaaaar less hypocritical about it. They don’t go on and on about how black lives matter or post those “no matter where you’re from you’re welcome here” signs in front of their house or make their “liberal” political views a personality trait only to turn around and shelter their kids from poor minorities like white people in say, Bethesda or N Arlington do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ I'm curious as to what kind of policies she'd recommend at the end of this.”

+1
I liked both episodes but the message did kind of make me wonder “so what are you saying SHOULD happen?” In one she rails against parents that decided not to send their kids to a certain public school after lobbying for its location (yeah, I get that). In the other she is focusing on shaming parents that opted into that public school but are spending time and money trying to create a program They want there (that would be open to any kids from the school).

Just to add though that the program — French immersion — was not the choice of the original community. They were never engaged in the decision. Had they had a voice they may have wanted Spanish or Arabic based on their population.

I’ll add that both the parents and perhaps most shockingly the kids had a sense of white saviorism — the school was only good when they got there.

That's what stood out to me. Kids are being taught this. They are being taught at home that they are better and only what they want -in this case French Immersion- matters.

When principals are practically begging white parents to send their children, how can the students not get that message?

I didn't hear the principal begging for white students. She wanted students to keep the school open. Any students would do. And even if she did beg the parents to send the children she never said we need your white kids because this school isn't good enough without them. That 11 year old didn't get his attitude from one open house. That is learned behavior from being taught that he and other white families are bettering the school because they are better.

The series literally opened with Chana Joffe Walt talking about school tours she was being given with other white parents where she "never felt her power as a consumer" so acutely.
They are definitely catering to white parents.

Agree that this podcast is catering to white parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So far white parents are guilty of considering their own children's needs first.

I do think the fundraising situation with the French immersion program was shady.

That dude was shady. That whole thing was far beyond anything I have ever seen at any white UMC PTA that I have been a part of. I actually thought the previous PTA president's ideas on how the PTA should be run are much more in line with my personal experience of bake sales and ice cream socials.

[Anonymous]

I can’t take any more progressive racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So far white parents are guilty of considering their own children's needs first.

I do think the fundraising situation with the French immersion program was shady.

That dude was shady. That whole thing was far beyond anything I have ever seen at any white UMC PTA that I have been a part of. I actually thought the previous PTA president's ideas on how the PTA should be run are much more in line with my personal experience of bake sales and ice cream socials.

He knew exactly what he was doing, as a professional fundraiser for him to lip service the PTA with honorable intentions while knowing all along that his responsibility was to "honor the donor's intent" is slimy AF. He probably poisoned his kids with the white savior speak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So far white parents are guilty of considering their own children's needs first.

I do think the fundraising situation with the French immersion program was shady.

That dude was shady. That whole thing was far beyond anything I have ever seen at any white UMC PTA that I have been a part of. I actually thought the previous PTA president's ideas on how the PTA should be run are much more in line with my personal experience of bake sales and ice cream socials.

Tom Hanson a French Canadian pitched French dual immersion - never mind that it’s totally self serving - go back to Quebec and teach your chins French.


That Foundation is 1000% for the interests of the upwardly mobile families.

I loved how Hemmay? (The PR PTA) just bit her tongue and was so gracious when that woman who travel to Paris in October goes on adnaseum of importance of learning a second language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So far white parents are guilty of considering their own children's needs first.

I do think the fundraising situation with the French immersion program was shady.

That dude was shady. That whole thing was far beyond anything I have ever seen at any white UMC PTA that I have been a part of. I actually thought the previous PTA president's ideas on how the PTA should be run are much more in line with my personal experience of bake sales and ice cream socials.

Tom Hanson a French Canadian pitched French dual immersion - never mind that it’s totally self serving - go back to Quebec and teach your chins French.


That Foundation is 1000% for the interests of the upwardly mobile families.

I loved how Hemmay? (The PR PTA) just bit her tongue and was so gracious when that woman who travel to Paris in October goes on adnaseum of importance of learning a second language.

I was coming here to comment on that. That woman was clueless and insufferable—lecturing a Puerto Rican woman on the importance of bilingualism. Smh. But Hemmay(?) handled it with grace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In white parents’ defense, they’ve been told so long that diversity was some kind of educational magic bullet. AA families are often complicit in that messaging.

This series is exposing that it’s not nearly so simple.

I've literally never heard this or anything like this expressed. I think it exposes that many MC/UMC white people wish there were "silver bullet" solutions to systemic racism, and so they interpret interventions that way. Then they feel betrayed when it turns out that their magical thinking doesn't work.

Of course the solution was never as simple as "diversity". And please point me to the AA families who are "often complicit" in perpetuating that messaging. Because I've never met any.

The latest clashes over redistricting was all about how diversity would bring all these benefits.

Many people, including Africans Americans, fought for redistricting in the name of diversity as if it was some kind of magic no brainer policy with no downside.

We’ve had decades of arguments for desegregation.

If diversity doesn’t really matter why do so many people fight for it?

Not hard to see why white families get the idea that simply reintegrating is some kind of noble act.

That one fundraiser guy really thought he was helping by bringing a cohort of white families in to bring about diversity.

Without his initiative it’s likely barely any of them would have showed up.

You guys have been slamming him, but I think if he had just communicated better this would have been a success story instead of a warning story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In white parents’ defense, they’ve been told so long that diversity was some kind of educational magic bullet. AA families are often complicit in that messaging.

This series is exposing that it’s not nearly so simple.

I've literally never heard this or anything like this expressed. I think it exposes that many MC/UMC white people wish there were "silver bullet" solutions to systemic racism, and so they interpret interventions that way. Then they feel betrayed when it turns out that their magical thinking doesn't work.

Of course the solution was never as simple as "diversity". And please point me to the AA families who are "often complicit" in perpetuating that messaging. Because I've never met any.

The latest clashes over redistricting was all about how diversity would bring all these benefits.

Many people, including Africans Americans, fought for redistricting in the name of diversity as if it was some kind of magic no brainer policy with no downside.

We’ve had decades of arguments for desegregation.

If diversity doesn’t really matter why do so many people fight for it?

Not hard to see why white families get the idea that simply reintegrating is some kind of noble act.

That one fundraiser guy really thought he was helping by bringing a cohort of white families in to bring about diversity.

Without his initiative it’s likely barely any of them would have showed up.

You guys have been slamming him, but I think if he had just communicated better this would have been a success story instead of a warning story.

Really? I got the impression that he realized that his kid was unlikely to get into one of the schools of choice; brainstormed the idea and then wrote the narrative which served mostly his and his counterparts interests. Had he not been faced with gettin shut out of the school he wanted his kids to go to he never would have given the school a first thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So far white parents are guilty of considering their own children's needs first.

I do think the fundraising situation with the French immersion program was shady.

That dude was shady. That whole thing was far beyond anything I have ever seen at any white UMC PTA that I have been a part of. I actually thought the previous PTA president's ideas on how the PTA should be run are much more in line with my personal experience of bake sales and ice cream socials.

Tom Hanson a French Canadian pitched French dual immersion - never mind that it’s totally self serving - go back to Quebec and teach your chins French.


That Foundation is 1000% for the interests of the upwardly mobile families.

I loved how Hemmay? (The PR PTA) just bit her tongue and was so gracious when that woman who travel to Paris in October goes on adnaseum of importance of learning a second language.

I listened to the podcaste at home qnd then it was on NPR so I heard it again.

Aimee was asked if her child was bilingual and said no. It was then that the woman launched into her lecture on the importance of bilingualism.

She's not the first person not to pass on her knowledge of another language with her child.

Also why would the woman assume that Aimee was bilingual by looking at her and because of her name? There are people across the country that only speak English even if their parents or grandparents also speak Arabic or greek or Spanish. But if you aren't wasp many look at you and assume you must "really" be from somewhere else. I never assume. That's racist.

[Anonymous]

littlehouse wrote:My child went to this school during this time. I'm familiar with the people and the events. It's funny to me that a lot of talk here is "if you listened to the podcast, you'd understand". But the podcast itself is subjective too, I suppose all reporting is.

I've never been on a school tour with even majority white parents. NYC public system is 15% white. There are a couple of white neighborhoods were you'd see tours like this .. carroll gardens, upper east side, Tribeca. It's a tiny percentage. I get that the podcast host lives in a super white Brooklyn neighborhood, but that's highly unusual and she should have said so.

I also wrote a letter about a middle school that was being built back when my kids were in grade school. Like in this case, it took 5 years (longer) and I didn't send my kids to that school, because they were no longer middle school aged. I wonder if someone will call me when I'm 90 to ask about this, I remember my kids weren't in middle school anymore.

I remember the fundraising event at the French Cultural Services building. It was a fundraiser for all the French dual language schools in NYC. There were about a half dozen at the time. Not for this school specifically. Parents were invited, but this wasn't really a parent thing. I didn't go. It was for rich ladies who love Paris to give money for french language instruction - presumably to the poors in Brooklyn. I know I'm happy to take their money. Easier than selling wrapping paper.

More about that foundation here: https://frenchculture.org/about-us/press-room/4889-campaign-dual-language-nyc-public-schools

(And let's take a moment here to acknowledge the French govt is playing the long game. I hand it to them.)

The school in 2015 was about to be closed. DOE employees are union, with pretty good salaries. Jillian, the principal, was making about 180k. There are Assistant Principals, Parent Coordinators, Guidance Counselors, Nurse, Safety Agent, Building Maintenance Staff all these people who are in a building if there is 100 kids or 3000. Teachers too, but that's scaleable. When enrollment is 100, the DOE is paying sometimes 30k a student and it makes no sense.

The podcast likes to focus on the 50k for the teacher and books, but a lot of money was being spent there for kids who ended up not graduating from high school. Even last year, the graduation rate was 75%. The high school directory is online. You can see the data.

I agree in general that PTAs should step back, but Principals need to step up. I'd be happy if PTAs were abolished. But I know parents are doing their best and they are unpaid and untrained. They also really don't make budget decisions. I know the press likes stories about parents fighting over PTA crumbs, but the Principal had a budget of north of $3mm in 2015.

There are about a dozen French dual language programs, but there are hundreds of Spanish and Mandarin programs. There are also Arabic, Japanese, Polish, Korean, Russian .. you name it .. dual language programs. In Brooklyn, the French speaking community is largely Caribbean (like me) but also kids from 27 African countries. SIS (called BHS now) was started with families from PS58, the one French Dual Language program in Carroll Gardens, the white zone where the podcast host lives. This "whiteness" is hard to shake, even now when it's mostly Caribbean. Then again, they are the people who used their agency to make it happen. Did they sound bad sometimes, sure. There probably were bad parents. Most were nice and made things happen. Not just French,but also sports and arts.

But again, when that Turkish/Yemini girl was learning French in a drama class, the host wonders if she wouldn't be happier in a arabic program. I think it leaves people to think there wasn't an arabic program at a school just a couple blocks away. There is! I'm not sure what the motivations were for the parents and the student to pick this school, but I don't second guess them. Would that little Chinese boy at her kid's school been happier in a Mandarin program? She doesn't seem to think so. But who are we to say. Parents make the best decisions they can for their kids, that includes immigrant parents.

That play by the way, was great, about refugees. It won awards. Here it is, being preformed for another fundraiser. (performative? sure. but easier than selling candy and the kids loved it.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0n4ikL1glE

I look forward to future episodes. I'm sure it will cover the Diversity Plan. Where white parents with kids in private schools said that that language screens were racist and so you couldnt test into BHS anymore as a Francophone. So rich white parents got those seats, the black francophones did not, and the school is whiter than ever post-Diversity Plan.

To put a picture to some of this, here's a video about the school during this time. Is it perfect? No. Did people mess up? Yes? Were people trying? Yes. Did the principal and admin mismanage some of this? YES, most of it.

Most white parents don't send their kids to public schools in NYC. One day, I'd like to see a Nice White Parents about those people - the ones who didn't even try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6vxEyslut8

Thank you for this perspective. It really gives perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone written Nice Asian Parents yet? Or Competitive Indian Parents? Or Demanding Russian Parents? Or are they exempt from the consequences of their parenting, which is exactly the same as UMC white people?

The difference is that they’re faaaaar less hypocritical about it. They don’t go on and on about how black lives matter or post those “no matter where you’re from you’re welcome here” signs in front of their house or make their “liberal” political views a personality trait only to turn around and shelter their kids from poor minorities like white people in say, Bethesda or N Arlington do.

The lesson here being, if you are white, don't go on and on about how black lives matter and don't post signs about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In white parents’ defense, they’ve been told so long that diversity was some kind of educational magic bullet. AA families are often complicit in that messaging.

This series is exposing that it’s not nearly so simple.

I've literally never heard this or anything like this expressed. I think it exposes that many MC/UMC white people wish there were "silver bullet" solutions to systemic racism, and so they interpret interventions that way. Then they feel betrayed when it turns out that their magical thinking doesn't work.

Of course the solution was never as simple as "diversity". And please point me to the AA families who are "often complicit" in perpetuating that messaging. Because I've never met any.

The latest clashes over redistricting was all about how diversity would bring all these benefits.

Many people, including Africans Americans, fought for redistricting in the name of diversity as if it was some kind of magic no brainer policy with no downside.

We’ve had decades of arguments for desegregation.

If diversity doesn’t really matter why do so many people fight for it?

Not hard to see why white families get the idea that simply reintegrating is some kind of noble act.

That one fundraiser guy really thought he was helping by bringing a cohort of white families in to bring about diversity.

Without his initiative it’s likely barely any of them would have showed up.

You guys have been slamming him, but I think if he had just communicated better this would have been a success story instead of a warning story.

Really? I got the impression that he realized that his kid was unlikely to get into one of the schools of choice; brainstormed the idea and then wrote the narrative which served mostly his and his counterparts interests. Had he not been faced with gettin shut out of the school he wanted his kids to go to he never would have given the school a first thought.

He was clear about this from the beginning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone written Nice Asian Parents yet? Or Competitive Indian Parents? Or Demanding Russian Parents? Or are they exempt from the consequences of their parenting, which is exactly the same as UMC white people?

The difference is that they’re faaaaar less hypocritical about it. They don’t go on and on about how black lives matter or post those “no matter where you’re from you’re welcome here” signs in front of their house or make their “liberal” political views a personality trait only to turn around and shelter their kids from poor minorities like white people in say, Bethesda or N Arlington do.

The lesson here being, if you are white, don't go on and on about how black lives matter and don't post signs about it?

If you're not going to walk the talk, then obviously no.

[Anonymous]

I'm enjoying the podcast and I hope that many of the parents in my community listen. I also say Serial posted this list on twitter of books that helped inform the podcast: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/podcasts/nice-white-parents-reading-list.html I'm listening to an audio book of "White Kids" and it is an incredible mirror for all kinds of white parents.