Does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are the top pyramids besides Mclean and Langley though? Not everyone can afford that. And what about schools with social economic diversity like Marshall?

You should probably start another thread with your specs.

Marshall is a very good school. It has more economic diversity (@18% FARMS) than Langley (@2%) or McLean (@10%) and less than the county average (@30%). Among FCPS high/secondary schools, only Langley, McLean, Madison and Oakton have more expensive single-family homes, on average, than Marshall. A typical house zoned for Marshall costs over $200K more than one zoned for neighboring Falls Church HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP will the cheaper house allow you to stop working or go part time?

Then you can the academic manager and tutor for your kid to help provide the differentiation they will not receive at a school where managing discipline and simply passing the SOLs is the priority of the teachers and administration

+1 Do the lower-priced house if it means do you have the time to be super involved and afford them great summer experiences, academic camps etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP everyone seems obsessed with “outcomes”. I’m not sure how bad your high school was if you didn’t consider this: I went from a crummy high school with 2 AP courses taught very very badly, admin was focused on football and trying to stem teen pregnancy.

I did excellent in high school, it was laughably easy for me, did pretty good on SAT and ended up at an elite university.

And almost flunked out. It was like whiplash, going from a non-academics high school where I was the blue whale in a koi pond, to barely able to finish basic freshman math or history classes. For the kids from elite public and private schools, college was actually way easier, so they had the luxury of developing new interests and friendship (which translates to later networking of course), while I spent hours trying to study enough to make up for my academic deficiency.

Now maybe folks will pipe up that curriculum is the same across FCPS, but I think for quality of education versus topics covered you will see a spectrum between schools.

It can be said that every high school in FCPS offers either a large number of AP classes or a large number of IB classes. Some of the IB schools also offer a handful of AP courses, but not the full array. In terms of electives, it's already been shown there are differences among the schools.

There are also demonstrable differences in the percentages of kids at different schools both taking and passing the AP/IB exams. Some will ascribe that to income, as if income alone explains all the variations. If one were looking for other correlations, they can be found. Labeling a course "AP" or "IB" doesn't necessarily mean that all students are getting the same education, if they have different levels of preparedness when they take those courses as sophomores, juniors, and seniors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are the top pyramids besides Mclean and Langley though? Not everyone can afford that. And what about schools with social economic diversity like Marshall?

Not sure if this of from the OP. Marshall is an excellent school with a stable administration and faculty. Things change over time, but a lot of consistency there. It is an IB school - as a previous poster mentioned - so you may or may not like that, but for a solid school, with high achievement and a higher degree of diversity than some in the are, there are neighborhoods well within your budget and seemingly in proximity of where you are looking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP will the cheaper house allow you to stop working or go part time?

Then you can the academic manager and tutor for your kid to help provide the differentiation they will not receive at a school where managing discipline and simply passing the SOLs is the priority of the teachers and administration

+1 Do the lower-priced house if it means do you have the time to be super involved and afford them great summer experiences, academic camps etc.

I wouldn't discount this, but parents in the "top" pyramids are also more likely to become aware of these types of opportunities through their schools and discussions with other parents.

[Anonymous]

Here is the difference: Peers and Peer pressure. For DD (graduating Senior from Madison), she was average for her peer group. The 20 or so kids are all going to really good schools. W & M, UVA, VT, some SLAC's, etc.

Where the peer group matters is they took pride in performance. The kids work hard at both school and extracurricular activities, and it shows, with certain activities being nationally ranks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

I went to Justice HS as a refugee when it was still under the name Stuart. The school was terrible, lot of fighting between Asians and white kids, Asians and black kids, Asians and Hispanics, etc... I did OK. I have been living in Mclean for the past twenty years and I have one kid at Potomac school and two kids at Langley HS.

Going to a better pyramid is so much better at many levels. There are so many successful people with kids at both Potomac school and Langley HS and they are more than willing to help my kids with both professional and personal finance advises. Several families offer my kids summer internships. I lost my job last year and one of the parents who is a CEO of a consultant company hired me and my salary increased by 40%.

Those opportunities are not likely to happen at Justice.

This is probably the biggest legitimate difference between high and lower-income pyramids. Other factors mentioned here--not so much. If this is something that matters strongly to you, then you should probably spend more for a "top" school. If you care more about things like avoiding entitlement and fostering empathy for those who are less fortunate, you're probably better off at a school like Justice.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

I went to Justice HS as a refugee when it was still under the name Stuart. The school was terrible, lot of fighting between Asians and white kids, Asians and black kids, Asians and Hispanics, etc... I did OK. I have been living in Mclean for the past twenty years and I have one kid at Potomac school and two kids at Langley HS.

Going to a better pyramid is so much better at many levels. There are so many successful people with kids at both Potomac school and Langley HS and they are more than willing to help my kids with both professional and personal finance advises. Several families offer my kids summer internships. I lost my job last year and one of the parents who is a CEO of a consultant company hired me and my salary increased by 40%.

Those opportunities are not likely to happen at Justice.

This is probably the biggest legitimate difference between high and lower-income pyramids. Other factors mentioned here--not so much. If this is something that matters strongly to you, then you should probably spend more for a "top" school. If you care more about things like avoiding entitlement and fostering empathy for those who are less fortunate, you're probably better off at a school like Justice.

+1

-1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP everyone seems obsessed with “outcomes”. I’m not sure how bad your high school was if you didn’t consider this: I went from a crummy high school with 2 AP courses taught very very badly, admin was focused on football and trying to stem teen pregnancy.

I did excellent in high school, it was laughably easy for me, did pretty good on SAT and ended up at an elite university.

And almost flunked out. It was like whiplash, going from a non-academics high school where I was the blue whale in a koi pond, to barely able to finish basic freshman math or history classes. For the kids from elite public and private schools, college was actually way easier, so they had the luxury of developing new interests and friendship (which translates to later networking of course), while I spent hours trying to study enough to make up for my academic deficiency.

Now maybe folks will pipe up that curriculum is the same across FCPS, but I think for quality of education versus topics covered you will see a spectrum between schools.

It can be said that every high school in FCPS offers either a large number of AP classes or a large number of IB classes. Some of the IB schools also offer a handful of AP courses, but not the full array. In terms of electives, it's already been shown there are differences among the schools.

There are also demonstrable differences in the percentages of kids at different schools both taking and passing the AP/IB exams. Some will ascribe that to income, as if income alone explains all the variations. If one were looking for other correlations, they can be found. Labeling a course "AP" or "IB" doesn't necessarily mean that all students are getting the same education, if they have different levels of preparedness when they take those courses as sophomores, juniors, and seniors.

Income is a proxy for so many things. Higher-income families are more likely to pay big bucks for tutoring and test-prep. Higher-income kids are also more likely to have special accommodations that allow them more time on their tests. Keeping-up-with-the-Jones pressure is real in these pyramids. It also results in more stressed out kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP everyone seems obsessed with “outcomes”. I’m not sure how bad your high school was if you didn’t consider this: I went from a crummy high school with 2 AP courses taught very very badly, admin was focused on football and trying to stem teen pregnancy.

I did excellent in high school, it was laughably easy for me, did pretty good on SAT and ended up at an elite university.

And almost flunked out. It was like whiplash, going from a non-academics high school where I was the blue whale in a koi pond, to barely able to finish basic freshman math or history classes. For the kids from elite public and private schools, college was actually way easier, so they had the luxury of developing new interests and friendship (which translates to later networking of course), while I spent hours trying to study enough to make up for my academic deficiency.

Now maybe folks will pipe up that curriculum is the same across FCPS, but I think for quality of education versus topics covered you will see a spectrum between schools.

It can be said that every high school in FCPS offers either a large number of AP classes or a large number of IB classes. Some of the IB schools also offer a handful of AP courses, but not the full array. In terms of electives, it's already been shown there are differences among the schools.

There are also demonstrable differences in the percentages of kids at different schools both taking and passing the AP/IB exams. Some will ascribe that to income, as if income alone explains all the variations. If one were looking for other correlations, they can be found. Labeling a course "AP" or "IB" doesn't necessarily mean that all students are getting the same education, if they have different levels of preparedness when they take those courses as sophomores, juniors, and seniors.

Income is a proxy for so many things. Higher-income families are more likely to pay big bucks for tutoring and test-prep. Higher-income kids are also more likely to have special accommodations that allow them more time on their tests. Keeping-up-with-the-Jones pressure is real in these pyramids. It also results in more stressed out kids.

People invariably suggest the temperature of the porridge at their school is just right, and too hot or too cold everywhere else. There is a whole vocabulary to accompany it. For every "stressed-out" kid at an alleged "pressure cooker," there is an unmotivated "slacker" at a "low-performing" school.

There really isn't any way to challenge the competing assertions, other than to ask how many of the assertions are likely based on experience and how many on envy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:58 here again,

Just re-read your question in the title of this thread.

I guess my answer to "does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run?" is:

Maybe. It depends on your kid.

Many people think of it like an insurance policy -- they buy in the best zone they can afford so that they know they've done all they can do for the kid to succeed. Whatever happens from there is on the kid.

This.

I went to a TERRIBLE high school, as did my brother (middle school). There were routine knife fights in my school, and my brother was relentlessly bullied. As recent immigrants, we didn’t have options. Nor did our parents understand that there could be options. We kept our head down, and nose in the books. My brother tested into a really good high school (he didn’t even tell the family about the test. Or the bullying), a horrible commute away, but made it work. My partial college scholarships were insufficient for me to go to private college, so I went to a local one. Then went to a top tier grad school, while working 3 jobs to make it work. We have both done well in life. My brother just made partner, and I am immensely proud of how far we have both come.

TL;DR A really good work ethic, and family support, goes a long way in life. People with options wouldn’t want to put their children through that.

Give me a break. There are no schools in Fairfax or Arlington counties with "routine knife fights".

Where did I say that I went to school around here? I went to school in NYC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:58 here again,

Just re-read your question in the title of this thread.

I guess my answer to "does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run?" is:

Maybe. It depends on your kid.

Many people think of it like an insurance policy -- they buy in the best zone they can afford so that they know they've done all they can do for the kid to succeed. Whatever happens from there is on the kid.

This.

I went to a TERRIBLE high school, as did my brother (middle school). There were routine knife fights in my school, and my brother was relentlessly bullied. As recent immigrants, we didn’t have options. Nor did our parents understand that there could be options. We kept our head down, and nose in the books. My brother tested into a really good high school (he didn’t even tell the family about the test. Or the bullying), a horrible commute away, but made it work. My partial college scholarships were insufficient for me to go to private college, so I went to a local one. Then went to a top tier grad school, while working 3 jobs to make it work. We have both done well in life. My brother just made partner, and I am immensely proud of how far we have both come.

TL;DR A really good work ethic, and family support, goes a long way in life. People with options wouldn’t want to put their children through that.

Give me a break. There are no schools in Fairfax or Arlington counties with "routine knife fights".

Where did I say that I went to school around here? I went to school in NYC.

Not the point. Your experience in a New York school with routine knife fights is irrelevant to OP’s question about schools in northern Virginia. Of course people with options wouldn’t choose an unsafe school, but there are no unsafe schools in NoVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:58 here again,

Just re-read your question in the title of this thread.

I guess my answer to "does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run?" is:

Maybe. It depends on your kid.

Many people think of it like an insurance policy -- they buy in the best zone they can afford so that they know they've done all they can do for the kid to succeed. Whatever happens from there is on the kid.

This.

I went to a TERRIBLE high school, as did my brother (middle school). There were routine knife fights in my school, and my brother was relentlessly bullied. As recent immigrants, we didn’t have options. Nor did our parents understand that there could be options. We kept our head down, and nose in the books. My brother tested into a really good high school (he didn’t even tell the family about the test. Or the bullying), a horrible commute away, but made it work. My partial college scholarships were insufficient for me to go to private college, so I went to a local one. Then went to a top tier grad school, while working 3 jobs to make it work. We have both done well in life. My brother just made partner, and I am immensely proud of how far we have both come.

TL;DR A really good work ethic, and family support, goes a long way in life. People with options wouldn’t want to put their children through that.

Give me a break. There are no schools in Fairfax or Arlington counties with "routine knife fights".

Where did I say that I went to school around here? I went to school in NYC.

Not the point. Your experience in a New York school with routine knife fights is irrelevant to OP’s question about schools in northern Virginia. Of course people with options wouldn’t choose an unsafe school, but there are no unsafe schools in NoVA.

Parents who’ve pulled their kids out of middle schools like Sandberg and Glasgow might beg to disagree.

[Anonymous]

OP: it probably doesn't make a huge difference "in the long run" because it's the home socio-economics that most predict "long-term" outcomes.

But it sure can make a difference in the short run and in your kid's day to day experience. We moved out of a low-income title I elementary after years there and are so happy we did for some many reasons.
Much nicer environment for my kids. But we didn't move into a high/perfect pyramid either. But every single little thing is nicer in the new elementary (well when we had school it was). Hardly any teacher turnover. Large parental involvement. Many more friends available for playdates and connections outside of school. More "elective" type options. Less cursing and pushing in the hallways and cafeterias. Things like that.

Not sure it matters as much in high school where you can pick your courses.

Hard to generalized on such a general question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Parents who’ve pulled their kids out of middle schools like Sandberg and Glasgow might beg to disagree.

It is Sandburg, so I assume you know no one who has "pulled their kids" from there. You did spell Glasgow correctly. If you know of parents who have "pulled their kids" from GMS, please share for the safety of all. Both schools have a higher population of low income children than some and challenges as such. At the same time, there are many non low income students as well and they have challenges, too. Knife fights in school, have not heard of any. If you know of them, please share. Unsafe, a broad term, but if you are in the know again please share.