Does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run?

[Anonymous]

Justice and Langley or McLean? Yeah. Langley/McLean vs. Madison/Marshall/Oakton? Not really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Justice and Langley or McLean? Yeah. Langley/McLean vs. Madison/Marshall/Oakton? Not really.

+1 I wouldn't send my kids to poor performing schools but there are lots of good schools who are not in uber rich and competitive areas.

[Anonymous]

This really depends on your kid. If you have a really self-driven kid who loves learning and isn’t easily influenced by friends, then it actually may be better in the long run to go to a lower rated school.

If you have a normal kid and you want them surrounded by kids whose parents push for academic achievement, the pyramid does matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:58 here again,

Just re-read your question in the title of this thread.

I guess my answer to "does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run?" is:

Maybe. It depends on your kid.

Many people think of it like an insurance policy -- they buy in the best zone they can afford so that they know they've done all they can do for the kid to succeed. Whatever happens from there is on the kid.

This.

I went to a TERRIBLE high school, as did my brother (middle school). There were routine knife fights in my school, and my brother was relentlessly bullied. As recent immigrants, we didn’t have options. Nor did our parents understand that there could be options. We kept our head down, and nose in the books. My brother tested into a really good high school (he didn’t even tell the family about the test. Or the bullying), a horrible commute away, but made it work. My partial college scholarships were insufficient for me to go to private college, so I went to a local one. Then went to a top tier grad school, while working 3 jobs to make it work. We have both done well in life. My brother just made partner, and I am immensely proud of how far we have both come.

TL;DR A really good work ethic, and family support, goes a long way in life. People with options wouldn’t want to put their children through that.

Give me a break. There are no schools in Fairfax or Arlington counties with "routine knife fights".

DP and not related to school safety per se, but there are absolutely schools in APS and FCPS that academically perform below state and national averages.

The "every school is great" line is something that local school officials and school boards like to say, but it's belied by their own behavior. For example, FCPS built or plans to build additions at West Springfield and West Potomac because they know people would fight getting moved to Lee and Mount Vernon, each of which has extra space. But they'll redistrict kids to schools with stronger academic reputations (Annandale to Woodson, Jackson to Thoreau) because they know the people getting moved believe they are getting an upgrade.

This isn't a knock on the teachers. Many dedicated teachers work in the school with more challenges. But peer groups matter a lot, just as parents do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

You set a trap for yourself there.

Justice does, in fact, have neighborhoods (in the Lake Barcroft and Sleepy Hollow areas) that are just as expensive as many Langley-zoned areas.

Now compare the records at those schools. Justice doesn't have anywhere near the number of high-achieving kids as Langley, even on an adjusted basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

I went to Justice HS as a refugee when it was still under the name Stuart. The school was terrible, lot of fighting between Asians and white kids, Asians and black kids, Asians and Hispanics, etc... I did OK. I have been living in Mclean for the past twenty years and I have one kid at Potomac school and two kids at Langley HS.

Going to a better pyramid is so much better at many levels. There are so many successful people with kids at both Potomac school and Langley HS and they are more than willing to help my kids with both professional and personal finance advises. Several families offer my kids summer internships. I lost my job last year and one of the parents who is a CEO of a consultant company hired me and my salary increased by 40%.

Those opportunities are not likely to happen at Justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly asking - Does the school pyramid really make a difference in the long run? I grew up in a small city in upstate NY and there was no moving around to a better school district. I got into a great engineering school and have done fine in life. But now, as my family is looking to move from a condo to SFH in NOVA with 2 kids, I'm feeling like I'm missing something. I'm feeling like the competition and school hunting that I see my peers doing when singling out a SFH is too much. My husband I are very engineering and math focused and see our children headed in that direction as well. Do I really need to be in the top school district, 7's and above on great schools?? Top 20 in the state? Will it make a difference in school experience or getting into college depending on what HS you went to? Any hidden gem schools that aren't rated great on GS but are, in fact, great?

For perspective, we are looking for a SFH with decent sized yard and 2000+ sq for $950k or less. Arlington, Falls Church, McLean, Vienna, Alexandria, Annandale, or closer in Fairfax

Don't make this more complicated than it is. You have a good budget and, if you're not looking for a new house with 4000+ feet, you'll have plenty of options. And you probably will prefer an AP school to an IB school if you have a math/engineering focus.

North Arlington might be tougher at $950K and $950K in the Langley district might push you further out that you want to be in Fairfax. But you could find something good zoned for McLean, Madison, Oakton, Woodson, and Fairfax, and they'd all be fine. Same goes for Marshall, if you prefer IB (some STEM-focused families like IB for the greater writing focus, although most prefer AP). Chantilly is further out and is also very good. To the south there is also Lake Braddock, Robinson and West Springfield, although you didn't mention Burke or Springfield.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We moved from one of the worst school pyramids to one of the best in FCPS.... I personally would not choose justice. Burke. W Springfield, Fairfax, Centreville and Chantilly all have excellent schools.

Your opening clearly subjective, but it would be interesting to hear of which pyramids you refer.

On the last part, the schools you mention, with the exception of Fairfax (and there is no Burke, but assume you mean Lake Braddock) really are not in the OP's areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

I went to Justice HS as a refugee when it was still under the name Stuart. The school was terrible, lot of fighting between Asians and white kids, Asians and black kids, Asians and Hispanics, etc... I did OK. I have been living in Mclean for the past twenty years and I have one kid at Potomac school and two kids at Langley HS.

Going to a better pyramid is so much better at many levels. There are so many successful people with kids at both Potomac school and Langley HS and they are more than willing to help my kids with both professional and personal finance advises. Several families offer my kids summer internships. I lost my job last year and one of the parents who is a CEO of a consultant company hired me and my salary increased by 40%.

Those opportunities are not likely to happen at Justice.

There's a School Board member, Omeish, whose father went to Stuart HS and was still living in the area when she was born. When she was young, he moved their family to the Woodson pyramid to avoid Stuart. She ended up in the IB program at Robinson.

[Anonymous]

+1 to the 16:03 post

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

I went to Justice HS as a refugee when it was still under the name Stuart. The school was terrible, lot of fighting between Asians and white kids, Asians and black kids, Asians and Hispanics, etc... I did OK. I have been living in Mclean for the past twenty years and I have one kid at Potomac school and two kids at Langley HS.

Going to a better pyramid is so much better at many levels. There are so many successful people with kids at both Potomac school and Langley HS and they are more than willing to help my kids with both professional and personal finance advises. Several families offer my kids summer internships. I lost my job last year and one of the parents who is a CEO of a consultant company hired me and my salary increased by 40%.

Those opportunities are not likely to happen at Justice.

This is probably the biggest legitimate difference between high and lower-income pyramids. Other factors mentioned here--not so much. If this is something that matters strongly to you, then you should probably spend more for a "top" school. If you care more about things like avoiding entitlement and fostering empathy for those who are less fortunate, you're probably better off at a school like Justice.

[Anonymous]

What are the top pyramids besides Mclean and Langley though? Not everyone can afford that. And what about schools with social economic diversity like Marshall?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m like you. Small town, elite college, even an engineer.

Did fine? So your HHI is like $200k — guessing from being in a condo looking at lower price SFH.

That is fine but going to a better pyramid opens up a network of people to learn and benefit from, peers who succeed and can refer you, parents with even more successful careers to give advice to their kids friends. I saw it at my elite college, having others from your circle helps a lot.

You did fine, but a better school let’s your kids do better.

+1. You may have “did fine,” but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done great. Wouldn’t you like your kids to do better than just fine?

Control for income and there is no evidence that similar kids do better at Langley than at Justice.

I went to Justice HS as a refugee when it was still under the name Stuart. The school was terrible, lot of fighting between Asians and white kids, Asians and black kids, Asians and Hispanics, etc... I did OK. I have been living in Mclean for the past twenty years and I have one kid at Potomac school and two kids at Langley HS.

Going to a better pyramid is so much better at many levels. There are so many successful people with kids at both Potomac school and Langley HS and they are more than willing to help my kids with both professional and personal finance advises. Several families offer my kids summer internships. I lost my job last year and one of the parents who is a CEO of a consultant company hired me and my salary increased by 40%.

Those opportunities are not likely to happen at Justice.

This is probably the biggest legitimate difference between high and lower-income pyramids. Other factors mentioned here--not so much. If this is something that matters strongly to you, then you should probably spend more for a "top" school. If you care more about things like avoiding entitlement and fostering empathy for those who are less fortunate, you're probably better off at a school like Justice.

TJ and Langley are the only two high schools in FCPS with very few "less fortunate" kids. Any other school will have roughly 10% or greater low-income kids - i.e., McLean has a Title I feeder, Madison has kids from a heavily Hispanic apartment complex near Cedar/Park; Oakton has kids from lower-income complexes off Blake Lane; Woodson has some modest townhouse complexes from the Fairfax Villa area, etc. Every morning kids from families with more resources at those schools see some of their less fortunate classmates getting free breakfasts, and every afternoon they'll have activities with kids who may need to leave early because they have after-school jobs to support their families.

FCPS spends considerably more money on the schools with more low-income kids, but the schools end up directing a large chunk of those funds towards trying to help kids gain fluency in English, stay in school, and graduate. The academic opportunities generally are not as robust for the other kids. For example, here's a list of the foreign languages offered at Langley next year: Chinese, French, German (being phased out), Japanese, Latin, Russian, and Spanish. And here are the options at Justice: Arabic, French, and Spanish. Similarly, if you compare the science courses at McLean to those at Justice, McLean offers all the science courses available at Justice, plus electives in Astronomy and Oceanography not offered at Justice. And there are no doubt other examples involving other schools and subject areas.

[Anonymous]

OP everyone seems obsessed with “outcomes”. I’m not sure how bad your high school was if you didn’t consider this: I went from a crummy high school with 2 AP courses taught very very badly, admin was focused on football and trying to stem teen pregnancy.

I did excellent in high school, it was laughably easy for me, did pretty good on SAT and ended up at an elite university.

And almost flunked out. It was like whiplash, going from a non-academics high school where I was the blue whale in a koi pond, to barely able to finish basic freshman math or history classes. For the kids from elite public and private schools, college was actually way easier, so they had the luxury of developing new interests and friendship (which translates to later networking of course), while I spent hours trying to study enough to make up for my academic deficiency.

Now maybe folks will pipe up that curriculum is the same across FCPS, but I think for quality of education versus topics covered you will see a spectrum between schools.