City Plan to Diversity and Fill Selective High Schools Not Controversial like NYC's

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many people act like DC schools are improving. It seems like smoke and mirrors to me. DC is constantly lowering the standards and then acting like kids are doing better. They have not been able to move the needle on regular high schools or middle schools. In fact, my sense is that Wilson is slightly worse than a few years ago. It certainly is not improving.

Well you have to move the needle on ES first, and it has been.

The most consistent measure, that is respected is the NAEP which measures 4th and 8th grade. DC is one of the few jurisdictions across the country whose scores are improving. Our scores are below the national average, but not stagnating or falling like Virginia and Maryland.

From the Post in Oct 2019: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-is-a-bright-spot-in-the-nations-overall-lackluster-standardized-test-results/2019/10/29/0c386ea2-fa51-11e9-8190-6be4deb56e01_story.html

... “There is clearly something good happening in D.C. when it comes to eighth-grade scores,” said Matthew Chingos, vice president of education data and policy at the Urban Institute .

The increase was driven largely by the performance of Hispanic students, who scored an average of 250 points on the exam, an eight-point increase since 2017. Black eighth-grade students had a one-point increase to 241 on the reading exam, and white students registered a one-point decline to 299.

Even so, a significant achievement gap persists between white students in the District and their Hispanic and black peers, although the gaps narrowed on this year’s test.

Overall, black, Hispanic and white students made gains on the test, and Kang said the city’s overall growth on the test cannot be attributed to demographic shifts in the city. ..."

So DC is making good progress in bringing up the bottom. Fine, credit where it's due. But DCPS and DCPCS clearly aren't doing that in supporting the strongest students, although their ranks have swelled in the last decade.

PARCC scores don't begin to tell the whole story. The Urban Institute knows that. Pipe down Matthew Chingos.

NAEP isn't PARCC. And all subgroups went up, not just "the bottom."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

DC has the highest cut score in country, equal to MA and NJ. The score my kids in DC got would have meant they were finalists if we lived anywhere except those 3 places.

Students complete based on the state their high school is in vs where they live. Each year, most of DC’s finalists attend private schools and maybe 5-10 attend public schools. not insignificant number of DC’s NMSF live in MD or VA but attend one of the private schools in the city. Given that I, unlike one of the other PPs, don’t think that is a meaningful way to compare high schools.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the PSAT just isn't a tough test, no matter what the state cut-off score may be.

I'm from MA. I scored above the cut-off coming from an ordinary small town high school - more of my classmates joined the military or went on to community colleges than to four-year programs. My siblings were also semifinalists, as was my immigrant spouse in NYC and his sibling. My spouse's parents still struggle with English.

Give us a break- PSAT math was easy then and is easy now, and the verbal section has never presented any great challenge for a committed bookworm. The fact that the semifinalist tally in DC public remains in the single digits after an epic demographic shift in the City in the last two decades not only gives me pause, it forces me to question how good any of our public schools really are. The selective HS admissions system needs to change. Copy Chicago, Boston or NYC, don't stick with this highly discretionary nonsense for political reasons.

Goodness me, I am pretty sure I went to high school with ten of the likes of you, and now here you are on DCUM. By that I mean, snobby bragging nerds with a superiority complex.

I too was one of these semifinalists, and I remember it being hard, and doing test prep at my school, and that there were not very many of us despite going to a top suburban public school with a huge population. I was very proud to be one. I think you should go back to your fake meritocracy bubble.

NP, why don't you launch into me next. I immigrated to the US in middle school, from the Soviet Union, speaking little English. I had no particular reason to be snobby or bragging as a teen scrambling to learn enough English to get to a 4-year college. I graduated high school in New York City - not a magnet program. In the US, frankly, I didn't have to put nose to the grindstone like I did in my Soviet schools just to meet grade level standards.

I took the PSAT and remember finding the math absurdly easy, around 7th grade level in USSR. The English was challenging, I'll grant you that. I was surprised to become not just a NM semifinalist, but a finalist. I went to Cornell for undergrad.

If my story shores up your fake meritocracy bubble, fine by me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many people act like DC schools are improving. It seems like smoke and mirrors to me. DC is constantly lowering the standards and then acting like kids are doing better. They have not been able to move the needle on regular high schools or middle schools. In fact, my sense is that Wilson is slightly worse than a few years ago. It certainly is not improving.

Well you have to move the needle on ES first, and it has been.

The most consistent measure, that is respected is the NAEP which measures 4th and 8th grade. DC is one of the few jurisdictions across the country whose scores are improving. Our scores are below the national average, but not stagnating or falling like Virginia and Maryland.

From the Post in Oct 2019: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-is-a-bright-spot-in-the-nations-overall-lackluster-standardized-test-results/2019/10/29/0c386ea2-fa51-11e9-8190-6be4deb56e01_story.html

... “There is clearly something good happening in D.C. when it comes to eighth-grade scores,” said Matthew Chingos, vice president of education data and policy at the Urban Institute .

The increase was driven largely by the performance of Hispanic students, who scored an average of 250 points on the exam, an eight-point increase since 2017. Black eighth-grade students had a one-point increase to 241 on the reading exam, and white students registered a one-point decline to 299.

Even so, a significant achievement gap persists between white students in the District and their Hispanic and black peers, although the gaps narrowed on this year’s test.

Overall, black, Hispanic and white students made gains on the test, and Kang said the city’s overall growth on the test cannot be attributed to demographic shifts in the city. ..."

So DC is making good progress in bringing up the bottom. Fine, credit where it's due. But DCPS and DCPCS clearly aren't doing that in supporting the strongest students, although their ranks have swelled in the last decade.

PARCC scores don't begin to tell the whole story. The Urban Institute knows that. Pipe down Matthew Chingos.

NAEP isn't PARCC. And all subgroups went up, not just "the bottom."

All subgroups did not go up. White 8th graders went down 1 point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

Nope. I'm the poster who remarked on the low NMSF yield compared to my public HS in another state -- the score cutoffs are identical, but my HS has 3x the semi finalists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

DC has the highest cut score in country, equal to MA and NJ. The score my kids in DC got would have meant they were finalists if we lived anywhere except those 3 places.

Students complete based on the state their high school is in vs where they live. Each year, most of DC’s finalists attend private schools and maybe 5-10 attend public schools. not insignificant number of DC’s NMSF live in MD or VA but attend one of the private schools in the city. Given that I, unlike one of the other PPs, don’t think that is a meaningful way to compare high schools.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the PSAT just isn't a tough test, no matter what the state cut-off score may be.

I'm from MA. I scored above the cut-off coming from an ordinary small town high school - more of my classmates joined the military or went on to community colleges than to four-year programs. My siblings were also semifinalists, as was my immigrant spouse in NYC and his sibling. My spouse's parents still struggle with English.

Give us a break- PSAT math was easy then and is easy now, and the verbal section has never presented any great challenge for a committed bookworm. The fact that the semifinalist tally in DC public remains in the single digits after an epic demographic shift in the City in the last two decades not only gives me pause, it forces me to question how good any of our public schools really are. The selective HS admissions system needs to change. Copy Chicago, Boston or NYC, don't stick with this highly discretionary nonsense for political reasons.

I have exactly the same thoughts as you. One possible explanation is that bright kids in DC blow off the PSAT, because National Merit isn't prestigous or valuable these days. Shrug. It got me a huge scholarship to a SLAC, so I'm still grateful.

[Anonymous]

It's politics people

Remember there are very very few white folks in DC with kids in school

Black voters drive policy in DC period

I have had several politicians openly admit they don't care about all these white families because most of them will be gone in a couple years and again there really aren't that many white kids to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's politics people

Remember there are very very few white folks in DC with kids in school

Black voters drive policy in DC period

I have had several politicians openly admit they don't care about all these white families because most of them will be gone in a couple years and again there really aren't that many white kids to begin with.

And the politicians aren’t wrong. They have to try and get a more educated workforce in DC to move forward and attract employers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

DC has the highest cut score in country, equal to MA and NJ. The score my kids in DC got would have meant they were finalists if we lived anywhere except those 3 places.

Students complete based on the state their high school is in vs where they live. Each year, most of DC’s finalists attend private schools and maybe 5-10 attend public schools. not insignificant number of DC’s NMSF live in MD or VA but attend one of the private schools in the city. Given that I, unlike one of the other PPs, don’t think that is a meaningful way to compare high schools.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the PSAT just isn't a tough test, no matter what the state cut-off score may be.

I'm from MA. I scored above the cut-off coming from an ordinary small town high school - more of my classmates joined the military or went on to community colleges than to four-year programs. My siblings were also semifinalists, as was my immigrant spouse in NYC and his sibling. My spouse's parents still struggle with English.

Give us a break- PSAT math was easy then and is easy now, and the verbal section has never presented any great challenge for a committed bookworm. The fact that the semifinalist tally in DC public remains in the single digits after an epic demographic shift in the City in the last two decades not only gives me pause, it forces me to question how good any of our public schools really are. The selective HS admissions system needs to change. Copy Chicago, Boston or NYC, don't stick with this highly discretionary nonsense for political reasons.

I have exactly the same thoughts as you. One possible explanation is that bright kids in DC blow off the PSAT, because National Merit isn't prestigous or valuable these days. Shrug. It got me a huge scholarship to a SLAC, so I'm still grateful.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While I support this effort, something just kind of sits wrong with me. Yes, those 45 kids in Ward 7 and 8 MS who passed the PARCC should absolutely get priority for whatever HS will serve them best. But putting all the load of remedying disparities in education (which begin in Preschool) on selective high schools just seems wrong, and another way to yell at guilt-susceptible white people instead of actually solving the problem. As others have observed, the real issue is why Wart 7 and 8 kids are leaving MS without even proficiency on the PARCC. Sending more kids to Walls is not going to solve that issue.

Ward 7 and 8 middle schools suck. DCPS needs to work on this issue effective yesterday. Signed an UMC AA parent that doesn't send her kids to school EOTR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

DC has the highest cut score in country, equal to MA and NJ. The score my kids in DC got would have meant they were finalists if we lived anywhere except those 3 places.

Students complete based on the state their high school is in vs where they live. Each year, most of DC’s finalists attend private schools and maybe 5-10 attend public schools. not insignificant number of DC’s NMSF live in MD or VA but attend one of the private schools in the city. Given that I, unlike one of the other PPs, don’t think that is a meaningful way to compare high schools.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the PSAT just isn't a tough test, no matter what the state cut-off score may be.

I'm from MA. I scored above the cut-off coming from an ordinary small town high school - more of my classmates joined the military or went on to community colleges than to four-year programs. My siblings were also semifinalists, as was my immigrant spouse in NYC and his sibling. My spouse's parents still struggle with English.

Give us a break- PSAT math was easy then and is easy now, and the verbal section has never presented any great challenge for a committed bookworm. The fact that the semifinalist tally in DC public remains in the single digits after an epic demographic shift in the City in the last two decades not only gives me pause, it forces me to question how good any of our public schools really are. The selective HS admissions system needs to change. Copy Chicago, Boston or NYC, don't stick with this highly discretionary nonsense for political reasons.

Goodness me, I am pretty sure I went to high school with ten of the likes of you, and now here you are on DCUM. By that I mean, snobby bragging nerds with a superiority complex.

I too was one of these semifinalists, and I remember it being hard, and doing test prep at my school, and that there were not very many of us despite going to a top suburban public school with a huge population. I was very proud to be one. I think you should go back to your fake meritocracy bubble.

NP, why don't you launch into me next. I immigrated to the US in middle school, from the Soviet Union, speaking little English. I had no particular reason to be snobby or bragging as a teen scrambling to learn enough English to get to a 4-year college. I graduated high school in New York City - not a magnet program. In the US, frankly, I didn't have to put nose to the grindstone like I did in my Soviet schools just to meet grade level standards.

I took the PSAT and remember finding the math absurdly easy, around 7th grade level in USSR. The English was challenging, I'll grant you that. I was surprised to become not just a NM semifinalist, but a finalist. I went to Cornell for undergrad.

If my story shores up your fake meritocracy bubble, fine by me.

This post makes has me thinking about today's media reports on the latest PISA results. Apparently, the US hasn't risen in the international rankings in either reading or math for both 4th and 8th grade. China, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. in Asia haven't just been killing us since PISA came on the scene, they've made gains in killing us since the last round of tests (given to around 600,000 students around the world every several years). We can all pretend that the high-end PSAT state cut-offs for NMSF are a dauntingly high bar to clear when they're not, not internationally anyway.

DC loves to toot its own horn on ed reform focused on the bottom when the important progress in a knowledge economy comes at the top.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's politics people

Remember there are very very few white folks in DC with kids in school

Black voters drive policy in DC period

I have had several politicians openly admit they don't care about all these white families because most of them will be gone in a couple years and again there really aren't that many white kids to begin with.

I mean, that's politics, so fine. But it's not like admitting more black students to SWW and Banneker (where they will wash out if they can't even pass the PARCC for Math) is actually providing that much to a black constituency ...

[Anonymous]

11:09 is right. My older DS (now college freshman) had a very high 10th grade PSAT.

Did not care one bit about it as a junior, raced through it and his score was stagnant; was focused on SAT and ACT and seeking merit awards to the colleges he was interested in.

Merit scholarships at those colleges = $20-30,000 per year. Those same colleges give 2,500-3,000 stipends for NMS. The investment of time and energy just wasn't worth it for that payoff.

If you want to attend a college that rewards NMS or NMSF handsomely your calculus will be different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

DC has the highest cut score in country, equal to MA and NJ. The score my kids in DC got would have meant they were finalists if we lived anywhere except those 3 places.

Students complete based on the state their high school is in vs where they live. Each year, most of DC’s finalists attend private schools and maybe 5-10 attend public schools. not insignificant number of DC’s NMSF live in MD or VA but attend one of the private schools in the city. Given that I, unlike one of the other PPs, don’t think that is a meaningful way to compare high schools.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the PSAT just isn't a tough test, no matter what the state cut-off score may be.

I'm from MA. I scored above the cut-off coming from an ordinary small town high school - more of my classmates joined the military or went on to community colleges than to four-year programs. My siblings were also semifinalists, as was my immigrant spouse in NYC and his sibling. My spouse's parents still struggle with English.

Give us a break- PSAT math was easy then and is easy now, and the verbal section has never presented any great challenge for a committed bookworm. The fact that the semifinalist tally in DC public remains in the single digits after an epic demographic shift in the City in the last two decades not only gives me pause, it forces me to question how good any of our public schools really are. The selective HS admissions system needs to change. Copy Chicago, Boston or NYC, don't stick with this highly discretionary nonsense for political reasons.

Goodness me, I am pretty sure I went to high school with ten of the likes of you, and now here you are on DCUM. By that I mean, snobby bragging nerds with a superiority complex.

I too was one of these semifinalists, and I remember it being hard, and doing test prep at my school, and that there were not very many of us despite going to a top suburban public school with a huge population. I was very proud to be one. I think you should go back to your fake meritocracy bubble.

NP, why don't you launch into me next. I immigrated to the US in middle school, from the Soviet Union, speaking little English. I had no particular reason to be snobby or bragging as a teen scrambling to learn enough English to get to a 4-year college. I graduated high school in New York City - not a magnet program. In the US, frankly, I didn't have to put nose to the grindstone like I did in my Soviet schools just to meet grade level standards.

I took the PSAT and remember finding the math absurdly easy, around 7th grade level in USSR. The English was challenging, I'll grant you that. I was surprised to become not just a NM semifinalist, but a finalist. I went to Cornell for undergrad.

If my story shores up your fake meritocracy bubble, fine by me.

This post makes has me thinking about today's media reports on the latest PISA results. Apparently, the US hasn't risen in the international rankings in either reading or math for both 4th and 8th grade. China, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. in Asia haven't just been killing us since PISA came on the scene, they've made gains in killing us since the last round of tests (given to around 600,000 students around the world every several years). We can all pretend that the high-end PSAT state cut-offs for NMSF are a dauntingly high bar to clear when they're not, not internationally anyway.

DC loves to toot its own horn on ed reform focused on the bottom when the important progress in a knowledge economy comes at the top.

1) PISA is administered to 15-year olds who attend just 240 randomly selected schools in the entire US. The US Department of Education chooses which schools participate each year -- we don't even know that any DC schools have been asked to take it.

2) There is evidence that Asian countries in particular are choosing schools in more affluent cities and regions, which would, of course, boost the scores. I don't know if it's true, but we need to be careful not to take things at face value. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/01/04/are-the-pisa-education-results-rigged/#753902f21561

No measure is perfect and comparisons are not all that worthwhile. The most significant indicator of high academic achievement remains the educational attainment of a student's mother.

Can we get back to discussion of DC's application high schools? There's an active, separate thread on NMSF already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's politics people

Remember there are very very few white folks in DC with kids in school

Black voters drive policy in DC period

I have had several politicians openly admit they don't care about all these white families because most of them will be gone in a couple years and again there really aren't that many white kids to begin with.

I mean, that's politics, so fine. But it's not like admitting more black students to SWW and Banneker (where they will wash out if they can't even pass the PARCC for Math) is actually providing that much to a black constituency ...

My point is no one really cares about this issue except folks on DCUM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You posters are clueless about how NMSF works in DC.

DC has the highest cut score in country, equal to MA and NJ. The score my kids in DC got would have meant they were finalists if we lived anywhere except those 3 places.

Students complete based on the state their high school is in vs where they live. Each year, most of DC’s finalists attend private schools and maybe 5-10 attend public schools. not insignificant number of DC’s NMSF live in MD or VA but attend one of the private schools in the city. Given that I, unlike one of the other PPs, don’t think that is a meaningful way to compare high schools.

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that the PSAT just isn't a tough test, no matter what the state cut-off score may be.

I'm from MA. I scored above the cut-off coming from an ordinary small town high school - more of my classmates joined the military or went on to community colleges than to four-year programs. My siblings were also semifinalists, as was my immigrant spouse in NYC and his sibling. My spouse's parents still struggle with English.

Give us a break- PSAT math was easy then and is easy now, and the verbal section has never presented any great challenge for a committed bookworm. The fact that the semifinalist tally in DC public remains in the single digits after an epic demographic shift in the City in the last two decades not only gives me pause, it forces me to question how good any of our public schools really are. The selective HS admissions system needs to change. Copy Chicago, Boston or NYC, don't stick with this highly discretionary nonsense for political reasons.

Goodness me, I am pretty sure I went to high school with ten of the likes of you, and now here you are on DCUM. By that I mean, snobby bragging nerds with a superiority complex.

I too was one of these semifinalists, and I remember it being hard, and doing test prep at my school, and that there were not very many of us despite going to a top suburban public school with a huge population. I was very proud to be one. I think you should go back to your fake meritocracy bubble.

NP, why don't you launch into me next. I immigrated to the US in middle school, from the Soviet Union, speaking little English. I had no particular reason to be snobby or bragging as a teen scrambling to learn enough English to get to a 4-year college. I graduated high school in New York City - not a magnet program. In the US, frankly, I didn't have to put nose to the grindstone like I did in my Soviet schools just to meet grade level standards.

I took the PSAT and remember finding the math absurdly easy, around 7th grade level in USSR. The English was challenging, I'll grant you that. I was surprised to become not just a NM semifinalist, but a finalist. I went to Cornell for undergrad.

If my story shores up your fake meritocracy bubble, fine by me.

This post makes has me thinking about today's media reports on the latest PISA results. Apparently, the US hasn't risen in the international rankings in either reading or math for both 4th and 8th grade. China, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. in Asia haven't just been killing us since PISA came on the scene, they've made gains in killing us since the last round of tests (given to around 600,000 students around the world every several years). We can all pretend that the high-end PSAT state cut-offs for NMSF are a dauntingly high bar to clear when they're not, not internationally anyway.

DC loves to toot its own horn on ed reform focused on the bottom when the important progress in a knowledge economy comes at the top.

The test in magnets in NYC are overwhelmingly lower middle class/poor Asian immigrants whose parents don’t speak English... still the kids manage well.