C- Section Awareness Month

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such a sad thread. Women need to wake up. This isn't about choice - we don't have good choices when we're giving birth. The awareness should be about questioning the status quo, questioning the medical establishment's assumption that c-section is always a safe alternative to vaginal birth when it's not, or that medical practitioners are doing everything they can to prevent them. Or the HUGE assumption that the way labor is managed is totally safe and effective, and which leaves women feeling like they had the power to prevent a c-section, because modern medicine couldn't possibly have been wrong. Stop blaming women! Stop perpetuating this misogyny and start questioning what you're being told.

But... YOU seem to be blaming women: "women need to wake up!" No. If c-sections are a public health issue, then doctors and medical schools should be tackling it. Don't make it about individual women questioning and doubting their healthcare providers during a very vulnerable time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

You realize that a lot of these things are from pregnancy, and not necessarily birth itself?

But yes, we need to talk about how birth isn’t always “pretty”.

There is “not pretty” and then there is “life altering injury.” Far too many women end up with the latter, it’s just that no one has been willing to talk about it publicly until recently. And yes, many of these injuries ARE caused by vaginal birth and the damage to the pelvic muscles, nerves, fascia, and ligaments caused by a baby passing through the vagina. Only about 50 percent of women who attempt vaginal birth have an uncomplicated delivery, and those women basically win the birth lottery. Don’t dismiss “quality of life” injuries like it’s not a big deal. It is.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/childbirth-injuries-prolapse-cesarean-section-natural-childbirth/

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a59626/birth-injuries-postpartum-pain-untreated/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

Well vaginal birth doesn't come with its own set of potentially life-threatening risks, except infection if you have a severe tear (which the majority of women do not). So there's that.

Uh, preeclampsia? Placental abruption? Shoulder dystocia? Postpartum hemorrhage? Placenta previa? Pretty sure those are life threatening. Also—a lot of the aforementioned conditions caused by vaginal birth result in surgery to fix the issue (ie hysterectomy, mesh repairs, sacrocolpopexy, mesh bladder slings, sacral nerve stimulators, etc) which are a whole hell of a lot riskier than a planned c section and fail pretty often. There is a cost to all forms of birth.

Well, preeclampsia, abruption, hemorrhage, and previa can all happen AS PART OF PREGNANCY. These are not unique to vagina birth. Dystocia is also not unheard of in c section delivery. Hysterectomy, bowel and bladder perforation, etc. are also not unheard of in c section.

This isn’t a competition.

Here’s the thing... most c section parents are already dealing with a complication or they wouldn’t be having a c section. Baby is coming out of an area created not by nature, but by surgery.

[Anonymous]

I’m an unmedicated natural birther. I’m a warrior!

Well, I went against advice and had a VBAC! I am woman, hear me roar!

I’m a c-section survivor. I haven’t even left the hospital yet and I’m already a far superior mom than you.

“Oh really?” -Home Birth Mom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

Well vaginal birth doesn't come with its own set of potentially life-threatening risks, except infection if you have a severe tear (which the majority of women do not). So there's that.

Uh, preeclampsia? Placental abruption? Shoulder dystocia? Postpartum hemorrhage? Placenta previa? Pretty sure those are life threatening. Also—a lot of the aforementioned conditions caused by vaginal birth result in surgery to fix the issue (ie hysterectomy, mesh repairs, sacrocolpopexy, mesh bladder slings, sacral nerve stimulators, etc) which are a whole hell of a lot riskier than a planned c section and fail pretty often. There is a cost to all forms of birth.

Well, preeclampsia, abruption, hemorrhage, and previa can all happen AS PART OF PREGNANCY. These are not unique to vagina birth. Dystocia is also not unheard of in c section delivery. Hysterectomy, bowel and bladder perforation, etc. are also not unheard of in c section.

This isn’t a competition.

Here’s the thing... most c section parents are already dealing with a complication or they wouldn’t be having a c section. Baby is coming out of an area created not by nature, but by surgery.

Oh STFU. Anyone who has studied this understands that Mother Nature made a massive compromise in human birth. Human heads are utterly massive when compared to primates. The pelvic anatomy and musculature of primates are hugely different. Their pelvises have room to spare and primates can give birth quickly and easily. In contrast, the levator hiatus of a primiparous woman is 15 cm square and has to undergo a puborectalis muscle stretch to over 90 cm to deliver a fetal head. In about half of all women, this is successful. In the other half, there is levator ani damage, up to and including full avulsion of the muscle from the bone - which is basically the pelvic floor version of a full Achilles tear. That injury results in all sorts of problems for women that I mentioned previously. Yet OBs are not taught pelvic floor anatomy in med school and don’t have any clue how to look for this injury, and are largely taught that these injuries are just part of what happens when you have a baby.

I am all for awareness—of the risks of all delivery modes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a sad thread. Women need to wake up. This isn't about choice - we don't have good choices when we're giving birth. The awareness should be about questioning the status quo, questioning the medical establishment's assumption that c-section is always a safe alternative to vaginal birth when it's not, or that medical practitioners are doing everything they can to prevent them. Or the HUGE assumption that the way labor is managed is totally safe and effective, and which leaves women feeling like they had the power to prevent a c-section, because modern medicine couldn't possibly have been wrong. Stop blaming women! Stop perpetuating this misogyny and start questioning what you're being told.

But... YOU seem to be blaming women: "women need to wake up!" No. If c-sections are a public health issue, then doctors and medical schools should be tackling it. Don't make it about individual women questioning and doubting their healthcare providers during a very vulnerable time.

The only thing I’m blaming women for is being catty to each other about this being some choice they should judge each other on. While women are bickering the real problems they should be pushing back on aren’t going to change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

You realize that a lot of these things are from pregnancy, and not necessarily birth itself?

But yes, we need to talk about how birth isn’t always “pretty”.

There is “not pretty” and then there is “life altering injury.” Far too many women end up with the latter, it’s just that no one has been willing to talk about it publicly until recently. And yes, many of these injuries ARE caused by vaginal birth and the damage to the pelvic muscles, nerves, fascia, and ligaments caused by a baby passing through the vagina. Only about 50 percent of women who attempt vaginal birth have an uncomplicated delivery, and those women basically win the birth lottery. Don’t dismiss “quality of life” injuries like it’s not a big deal. It is.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/childbirth-injuries-prolapse-cesarean-section-natural-childbirth/

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a59626/birth-injuries-postpartum-pain-untreated/

“Half of women have complicated births” - citation? That seems absurdly high. What does a “complicated birth” include, and is it always something a csection is the best solution for? Doubtful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

Well vaginal birth doesn't come with its own set of potentially life-threatening risks, except infection if you have a severe tear (which the majority of women do not). So there's that.

Uh, preeclampsia? Placental abruption? Shoulder dystocia? Postpartum hemorrhage? Placenta previa? Pretty sure those are life threatening. Also—a lot of the aforementioned conditions caused by vaginal birth result in surgery to fix the issue (ie hysterectomy, mesh repairs, sacrocolpopexy, mesh bladder slings, sacral nerve stimulators, etc) which are a whole hell of a lot riskier than a planned c section and fail pretty often. There is a cost to all forms of birth.

Well, preeclampsia, abruption, hemorrhage, and previa can all happen AS PART OF PREGNANCY. These are not unique to vagina birth. Dystocia is also not unheard of in c section delivery. Hysterectomy, bowel and bladder perforation, etc. are also not unheard of in c section.

This isn’t a competition.

Here’s the thing... most c section parents are already dealing with a complication or they wouldn’t be having a c section. Baby is coming out of an area created not by nature, but by surgery.

Oh STFU. Anyone who has studied this understands that Mother Nature made a massive compromise in human birth. Human heads are utterly massive when compared to primates. The pelvic anatomy and musculature of primates are hugely different. Their pelvises have room to spare and primates can give birth quickly and easily. In contrast, the levator hiatus of a primiparous woman is 15 cm square and has to undergo a puborectalis muscle stretch to over 90 cm to deliver a fetal head. In about half of all women, this is successful. In the other half, there is levator ani damage, up to and including full avulsion of the muscle from the bone - which is basically the pelvic floor version of a full Achilles tear. That injury results in all sorts of problems for women that I mentioned previously. Yet OBs are not taught pelvic floor anatomy in med school and don’t have any clue how to look for this injury, and are largely taught that these injuries are just part of what happens when you have a baby.

I am all for awareness—of the risks of all delivery modes.

How about awareness of your grasp on facts and figures? Half of women do not suffer levator injuries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

Well vaginal birth doesn't come with its own set of potentially life-threatening risks, except infection if you have a severe tear (which the majority of women do not). So there's that.

Uh, preeclampsia? Placental abruption? Shoulder dystocia? Postpartum hemorrhage? Placenta previa? Pretty sure those are life threatening. Also—a lot of the aforementioned conditions caused by vaginal birth result in surgery to fix the issue (ie hysterectomy, mesh repairs, sacrocolpopexy, mesh bladder slings, sacral nerve stimulators, etc) which are a whole hell of a lot riskier than a planned c section and fail pretty often. There is a cost to all forms of birth.

Well, preeclampsia, abruption, hemorrhage, and previa can all happen AS PART OF PREGNANCY. These are not unique to vagina birth. Dystocia is also not unheard of in c section delivery. Hysterectomy, bowel and bladder perforation, etc. are also not unheard of in c section.

This isn’t a competition.

Here’s the thing... most c section parents are already dealing with a complication or they wouldn’t be having a c section. Baby is coming out of an area created not by nature, but by surgery.

Oh STFU. Anyone who has studied this understands that Mother Nature made a massive compromise in human birth. Human heads are utterly massive when compared to primates. The pelvic anatomy and musculature of primates are hugely different. Their pelvises have room to spare and primates can give birth quickly and easily. In contrast, the levator hiatus of a primiparous woman is 15 cm square and has to undergo a puborectalis muscle stretch to over 90 cm to deliver a fetal head. In about half of all women, this is successful. In the other half, there is levator ani damage, up to and including full avulsion of the muscle from the bone - which is basically the pelvic floor version of a full Achilles tear. That injury results in all sorts of problems for women that I mentioned previously. Yet OBs are not taught pelvic floor anatomy in med school and don’t have any clue how to look for this injury, and are largely taught that these injuries are just part of what happens when you have a baby.

I am all for awareness—of the risks of all delivery modes.

How about awareness of your grasp on facts and figures? Half of women do not suffer levator injuries.

Really? Research says the opposite. Since virtually 100 percent of OBs are not looking for this injury and do not know how to assess for it, it goes routinely undiagnosed. The sad fact is that biologically we were not meant to have our first babies at age 30, 35, and 40. There is a cost for being AMA at first delivery, and women pay dearly for it.

“In about half of all women after vaginal childbirth, there is substantial alteration of functional anatomy affecting the puborectalis component of the levator ani muscle.”

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ajo.12059

[Anonymous]

Hmm, I would like some awareness about the permanent injuries c-sections can cause as well. After two of them, I have severe fecal urgency/mild incontinence, caused by the c-sections. Abdominal surgery has major risks to the pelvic floor too. There is nothing they can really do to help me, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

You realize that a lot of these things are from pregnancy, and not necessarily birth itself?

But yes, we need to talk about how birth isn’t always “pretty”.

There is “not pretty” and then there is “life altering injury.” Far too many women end up with the latter, it’s just that no one has been willing to talk about it publicly until recently. And yes, many of these injuries ARE caused by vaginal birth and the damage to the pelvic muscles, nerves, fascia, and ligaments caused by a baby passing through the vagina. Only about 50 percent of women who attempt vaginal birth have an uncomplicated delivery, and those women basically win the birth lottery. Don’t dismiss “quality of life” injuries like it’s not a big deal. It is.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/childbirth-injuries-prolapse-cesarean-section-natural-childbirth/

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a59626/birth-injuries-postpartum-pain-untreated/

“Half of women have complicated births” - citation? That seems absurdly high. What does a “complicated birth” include, and is it always something a csection is the best solution for? Doubtful.

“The prevalence of significant pelvic floor trauma after vaginal child birth is much higher than generally assumed. Rates of obstetric anal sphincter injury are often underestimated and levator avulsion is not included as a consequence of vaginal birth in most obstetric text books. In this study less than half (33-40%) of primiparous women achieved an atraumatic normal vaginal delivery.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30063899/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hmm, I would like some awareness about the permanent injuries c-sections can cause as well. After two of them, I have severe fecal urgency/mild incontinence, caused by the c-sections. Abdominal surgery has major risks to the pelvic floor too. There is nothing they can really do to help me, either.

How are you attributing this to the C section? Unless you labored before your C section, it’s likely it was caused by pregnancy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm, I would like some awareness about the permanent injuries c-sections can cause as well. After two of them, I have severe fecal urgency/mild incontinence, caused by the c-sections. Abdominal surgery has major risks to the pelvic floor too. There is nothing they can really do to help me, either.

How are you attributing this to the C section? Unless you labored before your C section, it’s likely it was caused by pregnancy.

Nerve damage, according to multiple specialists. My sex life is also basically ruined. This is not as uncommon as you’d like to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

You realize that a lot of these things are from pregnancy, and not necessarily birth itself?

But yes, we need to talk about how birth isn’t always “pretty”.

There is “not pretty” and then there is “life altering injury.” Far too many women end up with the latter, it’s just that no one has been willing to talk about it publicly until recently. And yes, many of these injuries ARE caused by vaginal birth and the damage to the pelvic muscles, nerves, fascia, and ligaments caused by a baby passing through the vagina. Only about 50 percent of women who attempt vaginal birth have an uncomplicated delivery, and those women basically win the birth lottery. Don’t dismiss “quality of life” injuries like it’s not a big deal. It is.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/childbirth-injuries-prolapse-cesarean-section-natural-childbirth/

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a59626/birth-injuries-postpartum-pain-untreated/

“Half of women have complicated births” - citation? That seems absurdly high. What does a “complicated birth” include, and is it always something a csection is the best solution for? Doubtful.

“The prevalence of significant pelvic floor trauma after vaginal child birth is much higher than generally assumed. Rates of obstetric anal sphincter injury are often underestimated and levator avulsion is not included as a consequence of vaginal birth in most obstetric text books. In this study less than half (33-40%) of primiparous women achieved an atraumatic normal vaginal delivery.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30063899/

Uh, did you actually read the research? The percentage of women who did NOT achieve an “atraumatic normal vaginal delivery “ includes the large percentage who had c-sections (so not any type of vaginal delivery), as well as those with instrumental deliveries, third and fourth degree tears, etc. The data is NOT saying that over 50 percent of women have levator injuries! You’re grossly misinterpreting the data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a sad thread. Women need to wake up. This isn't about choice - we don't have good choices when we're giving birth. The awareness should be about questioning the status quo, questioning the medical establishment's assumption that c-section is always a safe alternative to vaginal birth when it's not, or that medical practitioners are doing everything they can to prevent them. Or the HUGE assumption that the way labor is managed is totally safe and effective, and which leaves women feeling like they had the power to prevent a c-section, because modern medicine couldn't possibly have been wrong. Stop blaming women! Stop perpetuating this misogyny and start questioning what you're being told.

But... YOU seem to be blaming women: "women need to wake up!" No. If c-sections are a public health issue, then doctors and medical schools should be tackling it. Don't make it about individual women questioning and doubting their healthcare providers during a very vulnerable time.

What do you mean "if"?!?!?
Of course it's a public health crisis.