S/O What should MoCo do about parking in downtown Bethesda

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

Well it doesn't sound like you go there much now with the parking status quo, so why should someone care that you're avoiding the area? More urban types who are inclined to walk or bus to restaurants and live in town will be far more lucrative for retail owners.

Not np, but it's so lucrative that there is constant turn over in the Bethesda area of restaurants and other businesses. Why? The planners made a decision to limit parking spaces while building their infill high rises, most of which are either vacant or house families, which is not what these genious' thought would happen. The upper class non children young professionals never came, at least not in the numbers they had imagined. What did happen was lots of famliies who understandably do not budget for eating out in Bethesda. So you should care that those that have disposable income can patronize those businesses so they don't fail, you should care. I'm in the business and I have had tenants tell me they don't care about parking because they want customers to use uber so they can drink more. This line of mentality will not support family nights out, I personally do not drink when my younger children are out with us, just a personal choice. Urban types are nice, but they are not at this point in time substaining the businesses. The money is just not there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

Downtown Bethesda seems to be doing fine without you as a customer, which suggests that the system is working.

Also, there are plenty of places for multi-car households to live that are not downtown Bethesda right on top of the Bethesda Metro station and future Purple Line station. If you must have multiple cars per household, and it's difficult to park in downtown Bethesda, it is rational to live in one of those places, rather than in downtown Bethesda.

In 2011, 26% of households in downtown Bethesda didn't have a car.

It doesn't all have to be about you - or about me (we're a multi-car household in the upcounty). I'm not saying that to be snarky. It's just a fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

Nobody said you had to like it. Just deal with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

Downtown Bethesda seems to be doing fine without you as a customer, which suggests that the system is working.

Also, there are plenty of places for multi-car households to live that are not downtown Bethesda right on top of the Bethesda Metro station and future Purple Line station. If you must have multiple cars per household, and it's difficult to park in downtown Bethesda, it is rational to live in one of those places, rather than in downtown Bethesda.

In 2011, 26% of households in downtown Bethesda didn't have a car.

It doesn't all have to be about you - or about me (we're a multi-car household in the upcounty). I'm not saying that to be snarky. It's just a fact.

PP lives two miles from downtown Bethesda. That's not in downtown Bethesda or on top of the Metro station. She lives exactly where you are suggesting someone like her should.

But, it is important that people like PP be able to park relatively easily in downtown Bethesda. Although the area has gotten denser in recent years, I significant portion of people who work, shop, eat, etc in downtown Bethesda live relatively near, but not in downtown Bethesda --- say 1.5 - 5 miles away. Without parking available, most of those people simply are not going to come in and support downtown businesses.

Now, I happen to disagree with the PP that the current parking situation is inadequate. With the new, big lot by Silver, I think there is enough parking and I think someone like PP who now avoids the area because of parking is in the distinct minority. Having said that, if parking were to be significantly reduced, as some people here are advocating, then I do believe that you would have more people like PP who would avoid downtown Bethesda and that would be very bad for Bethesda businesses and the area in general, which can't rely only on folks in downtown Bethesda itself to survive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
PP lives two miles from downtown Bethesda. That's not in downtown Bethesda or on top of the Metro station. She lives exactly where you are suggesting someone like her should.

But, it is important that people like PP be able to park relatively easily in downtown Bethesda. Although the area has gotten denser in recent years, I significant portion of people who work, shop, eat, etc in downtown Bethesda live relatively near, but not in downtown Bethesda --- say 1.5 - 5 miles away. Without parking available, most of those people simply are not going to come in and support downtown businesses.

Now, I happen to disagree with the PP that the current parking situation is inadequate. With the new, big lot by Silver, I think there is enough parking and I think someone like PP who now avoids the area because of parking is in the distinct minority. Having said that, if parking were to be significantly reduced, as some people here are advocating, then I do believe that you would have more people like PP who would avoid downtown Bethesda and that would be very bad for Bethesda businesses and the area in general, which can't rely only on folks in downtown Bethesda itself to survive.

No, it isn't. Really, it isn't. It's convenient for the PP, of course. But it's bad for downtown Bethesda. We really need to get over the idea that a dense, urban place needs easy parking for economic prosperity. The opposite is true.

Not to mention that there is already lots of parking in Bethesda. Lots and lots.

[Anonymous]

To me the Circulator is the best thing that BUP (Bethesda Urban Partnership -- the BID basically) does. It connects some of the affordable housing on Bradley Blvd and Battery Lane to the rest of Bethesda, as well as the shops and restaurants in "old" Bethesda (Woodmont triangle) to "new" Bethesda (Bethesda Row). I'm in Bethesda a few times every day, and there are always people waiting at the circulator stops like the one in front of CVS across from Strosniders, and the stops on Battery Lane.

I've ridden it many times, and never have I been the only person on it. Also the assumption that people can just walk isn't a good one -- a lot of people can't or don't want to walk long distances, especially when it's too cold or too hot outside or raining. I know we've often taken it to get around Bethesda because our 3 year old isn't going to handle the long walk otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
PP lives two miles from downtown Bethesda. That's not in downtown Bethesda or on top of the Metro station. She lives exactly where you are suggesting someone like her should.

But, it is important that people like PP be able to park relatively easily in downtown Bethesda. Although the area has gotten denser in recent years, I significant portion of people who work, shop, eat, etc in downtown Bethesda live relatively near, but not in downtown Bethesda --- say 1.5 - 5 miles away. Without parking available, most of those people simply are not going to come in and support downtown businesses.

Now, I happen to disagree with the PP that the current parking situation is inadequate. With the new, big lot by Silver, I think there is enough parking and I think someone like PP who now avoids the area because of parking is in the distinct minority. Having said that, if parking were to be significantly reduced, as some people here are advocating, then I do believe that you would have more people like PP who would avoid downtown Bethesda and that would be very bad for Bethesda businesses and the area in general, which can't rely only on folks in downtown Bethesda itself to survive.

No, it isn't. Really, it isn't. It's convenient for the PP, of course. But it's bad for downtown Bethesda. We really need to get over the idea that a dense, urban place needs easy parking for economic prosperity. The opposite is true.

Not to mention that there is already lots of parking in Bethesda. Lots and lots.

I agree that Bethesda currently as adequate parking. As to your belief that parking harms Bethesda's prosperity, you are just wrong. I've run a business in Bethesda for a long time. I have a good sense of my customers and of other stores/restaurants downtown. Most of the people supporting Bethesda businesses do not live walking distance to downtown and they arne't going to bus or bike in. Without parking, they will go elsewhere.

Bethesda is not that dense or urban. It does not, and will not, have enough people in easy walking distance to support businesses. Your views are treating Bethesda as Manhattan, or even DC, and that just isn't true.

[Anonymous]

Things change. A lot of the free surface parking in Bethesda has been converted to underground, paid parking. This will change even more in the coming years when the area behind the cooperative is redeveloped and eventually, I assume, the Stroschneider's strip mall will be redeveloped.

It is what it is, and the businesses will adapt to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Things change. A lot of the free surface parking in Bethesda has been converted to underground, paid parking. This will change even more in the coming years when the area behind the cooperative is redeveloped and eventually, I assume, the Stroschneider's strip mall will be redeveloped.

It is what it is, and the businesses will adapt to it.

Underground parking is still parking. That is a change that properly balances the need for greater density with the continued need for parking.

You say businesses will adapt, but the issue is making good sure customers can get to the businesses. If customers can't reach the business, the way to adapt is to go online, but online stores don't contribute to a vibrant urban environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
PP lives two miles from downtown Bethesda. That's not in downtown Bethesda or on top of the Metro station. She lives exactly where you are suggesting someone like her should.

But, it is important that people like PP be able to park relatively easily in downtown Bethesda. Although the area has gotten denser in recent years, I significant portion of people who work, shop, eat, etc in downtown Bethesda live relatively near, but not in downtown Bethesda --- say 1.5 - 5 miles away. Without parking available, most of those people simply are not going to come in and support downtown businesses.

Now, I happen to disagree with the PP that the current parking situation is inadequate. With the new, big lot by Silver, I think there is enough parking and I think someone like PP who now avoids the area because of parking is in the distinct minority. Having said that, if parking were to be significantly reduced, as some people here are advocating, then I do believe that you would have more people like PP who would avoid downtown Bethesda and that would be very bad for Bethesda businesses and the area in general, which can't rely only on folks in downtown Bethesda itself to survive.

No, it isn't. Really, it isn't. It's convenient for the PP, of course. But it's bad for downtown Bethesda. We really need to get over the idea that a dense, urban place needs easy parking for economic prosperity. The opposite is true.

Not to mention that there is already lots of parking in Bethesda. Lots and lots.

Anti-parking PP, I'm another person who lives about 2 miles from downtown Bethesda and goes there less and less frequently these days. So I drive further (and emit more) to go somewhere that I can park. There may be "lots and lots" of parking in DT Bethesda, but not close enough so that I can lug a cart full of groceries and other stuff from Target and TJ's as I did this morning. Even at 10am, that tiny little nub of Stanford Street was total gridlock because the garage for Target and TJs is teensy and they've now opened an urgent care center right at the same exact spot.

We'd all love to live within walking distance of everything in downtown Bethesda. But unless you're going to put in a lot of subsidized housing (ha! wait till the NIMBYs hear that!) most of us can't afford the $2m price tag. So build more parking, and redo the restrictions that force all traffic onto Bradley or EW Highway, so the great unwashed amonst us can come and shop and dine and take karate and go to the bank and the post office and commute to our offices via public transportation. Getting rid of parking might benefit the developers who build the condo buildings, but it won't help the community that actually exists in the surrounding area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things change. A lot of the free surface parking in Bethesda has been converted to underground, paid parking. This will change even more in the coming years when the area behind the cooperative is redeveloped and eventually, I assume, the Stroschneider's strip mall will be redeveloped.

It is what it is, and the businesses will adapt to it.

Underground parking is still parking. That is a change that properly balances the need for greater density with the continued need for parking.

You say businesses will adapt, but the issue is making good sure customers can get to the businesses. If customers can't reach the business, the way to adapt is to go online, but online stores don't contribute to a vibrant urban environment.

Amazon and the internet have changed retail permanently, and now our physical development is adapting to it. Underground parking is still parking. Maybe Baby Boomers demand free and open parking on demand, but the rest of us understand that parking has costs, and they need to be paid, either by the County, the property owner or the consumer, or some combination of all 3.

[Anonymous]

Agree someone has to pay for the parking so I guess the question is whether the benefit to the property owners is worth the cost. There’s a lot of UMC families with disposable income in the Bradley hills, wyngate, ashburton and KP neighborhoods that are basically equidistant between the Bethesda retail and the Rockville retail areas. One has free and relatively convenient parking, the other less o. (I do tend to think that Bethesda has enough parking for weekends, at least in the Bethesda row area), but it’s worse on the other side of Bethesda and terrible on weedkdays).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Agree someone has to pay for the parking so I guess the question is whether the benefit to the property owners is worth the cost. There’s a lot of UMC families with disposable income in the Bradley hills, wyngate, ashburton and KP neighborhoods that are basically equidistant between the Bethesda retail and the Rockville retail areas. One has free and relatively convenient parking, the other less o. (I do tend to think that Bethesda has enough parking for weekends, at least in the Bethesda row area), but it’s worse on the other side of Bethesda and terrible on weedkdays).

Well, then county residents have a choice. Some can live in downtown Bethesda and walk to their amenities, others can live in the neighborhoods you describe and drive to Rockville Pike and park for free to get their Amenities. I am pretty sure Bethesda will do just fine either way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree someone has to pay for the parking so I guess the question is whether the benefit to the property owners is worth the cost. There’s a lot of UMC families with disposable income in the Bradley hills, wyngate, ashburton and KP neighborhoods that are basically equidistant between the Bethesda retail and the Rockville retail areas. One has free and relatively convenient parking, the other less o. (I do tend to think that Bethesda has enough parking for weekends, at least in the Bethesda row area), but it’s worse on the other side of Bethesda and terrible on weedkdays).

Well, then county residents have a choice. Some can live in downtown Bethesda and walk to their amenities, others can live in the neighborhoods you describe and drive to Rockville Pike and park for free to get their Amenities. I am pretty sure Bethesda will do just fine either way.

DP. But Bethesda won't. Bethesda relies to a significant degree on people who cannot walk there. There simply aren't enough people in walking distance to sustain the vibrant area we seem to all want. If it got to the point that people 2 mikes from Bethesda really didn't go there, Bethesda could not sustain itself.

Look at this way, Bethesda garages are currently packed with people throughout the week and weekend. Those thousands and thousands of people are all shopping, eating, working, etc. If parking were curtailed so that only half that number could come into Bethesda, you really don't think that would have an adverse impact?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things change. A lot of the free surface parking in Bethesda has been converted to underground, paid parking. This will change even more in the coming years when the area behind the cooperative is redeveloped and eventually, I assume, the Stroschneider's strip mall will be redeveloped.

It is what it is, and the businesses will adapt to it.

Underground parking is still parking. That is a change that properly balances the need for greater density with the continued need for parking.

You say businesses will adapt, but the issue is making good sure customers can get to the businesses. If customers can't reach the business, the way to adapt is to go online, but online stores don't contribute to a vibrant urban environment.

Amazon and the internet have changed retail permanently, and now our physical development is adapting to it. Underground parking is still parking. Maybe Baby Boomers demand free and open parking on demand, but the rest of us understand that parking has costs, and they need to be paid, either by the County, the property owner or the consumer, or some combination of all 3.

I don't disagree with that.

In terms of Amazon/the internet, it has changed retail and made it I much more difficult environment to survive, leading to a lot of vacancies in many areas, including downtown Bethesda. Because I think we all believe an active retain segment is beneficial for a variety of reasons, policymakers should be wary of taking even further measures that will harm the retail sector -- such as significantly reducing parking. That doesn't mean that there should be plentiful, free, surface lots -- not all. But it does mean not substantially reducing parking or making parking expenses enough so that most people will not use it. (Exactly where that line can be debated.)