S/O What should MoCo do about parking in downtown Bethesda

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I wrote about this upthread - Montgomery County loses lots of money on its parking garages (and so does everyone else). They cost 30-40 million to build and never recover their costs in parking fees and have on-going high maintenance costs. And there is an opportunity cost as the county could sell the land under those garages and get something that instead generates tax revenues.

And that doesn't get into the crazy costs of building and maintaining our roadway system or the many externalities.

Yes, you have said that. But do you have any citation from a credible source to support it?

Your externality analysis seems to only cut one way. You seem to ignore that significantly limiting parking would significantly harm businesses in Bethesda, causing economic and other harms.

DP. Do you have any citation from a credible source to support that?

If the county got rid of parking in downtown Bethesda (which is not going to happen) AND also did nothing else (which is also not going to happen), then that would likely harm businesses in downtown Bethesda. But if the county replaced parking in downtown Bethesda with housing in downtown Bethesda? Nope. In that case, it's true that people who would only spend money in downtown Bethesda if they can drive there and park, would no longer spend money in downtown Bethesda. But that loss would be offset by people who don't need to park in downtown Bethesda because they're already there.

There's a tendency to believe that a business that you wouldn't spend money at is a business that won't be successful. There was a lot of that when the new Target opened, for example - "There's not enough parking and it's too hard to get to! I'll never shop there!" Well, the new Target seems to be doing fine without those people's custom. And people in the western part of the county who want a drive-to Target with plenty of parking can still go to the Targets in Rockville, Gaithersburg, or Germantown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I wrote about this upthread - Montgomery County loses lots of money on its parking garages (and so does everyone else). They cost 30-40 million to build and never recover their costs in parking fees and have on-going high maintenance costs. And there is an opportunity cost as the county could sell the land under those garages and get something that instead generates tax revenues.

And that doesn't get into the crazy costs of building and maintaining our roadway system or the many externalities.

Yes, you have said that. But do you have any citation from a credible source to support it?

Your externality analysis seems to only cut one way. You seem to ignore that significantly limiting parking would significantly harm businesses in Bethesda, causing economic and other harms.

DP. Do you have any citation from a credible source to support that?

If the county got rid of parking in downtown Bethesda (which is not going to happen) AND also did nothing else (which is also not going to happen), then that would likely harm businesses in downtown Bethesda. But if the county replaced parking in downtown Bethesda with housing in downtown Bethesda? Nope. In that case, it's true that people who would only spend money in downtown Bethesda if they can drive there and park, would no longer spend money in downtown Bethesda. But that loss would be offset by people who don't need to park in downtown Bethesda because they're already there.

There's a tendency to believe that a business that you wouldn't spend money at is a business that won't be successful. There was a lot of that when the new Target opened, for example - "There's not enough parking and it's too hard to get to! I'll never shop there!" Well, the new Target seems to be doing fine without those people's custom. And people in the western part of the county who want a drive-to Target with plenty of parking can still go to the Targets in Rockville, Gaithersburg, or Germantown.

[Anonymous]

[quote

Yes, you have said that. But do you have any citation from a credible source to support it?

Your externality analysis seems to only cut one way. You seem to ignore that significantly limiting parking would significantly harm businesses in Bethesda, causing economic and other harms.

Here you go:

https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/news/bethesdas-parking-lot-district-on-verge-of-going-broke/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The county does not have the money for all the schools that are needed. They are backlogged by billions thanks to over 2,000 new students every year since 2008. But that is not what the OP asked.

So, back to the original question about parking, it is true, the planning board gives more points to developers the less parking spots they build. They want more people taking Transit. Unfortunately, the "don't build a parking spot and they won't have a car" wich is a wish, doesn't actually come true. So, more cars, in more dense areas, and not enough parking. This happens in areas 2 miles from the metro too, because they believe everyone will walk the 2 miles every day to the metro.

Right and one of the reasons the county doesn't have money is it spends hundreds of millions every year expanding roads. Expansions that aren't needed if you densify in Bethesda/White Flint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That is pretty low ridership for a route with that frequency - if the schedule is right they are running about 96 buses a day so that means about 12 people per run. One of the lower frequency buses I ride in DC carries about 7,000 people a day.

Good grief. Frequency is certainly a major factor in ridership, but it's not the only factor.

Agreed. But DC buses are 2$ a ride and the circulator is free so even accounting for some lower population density the Circulator doesn’t have greater ride on numbers. I’ve taken it once or twice with my kids as a “whee-we’re riding on a bus around Bethesda” thing, but as a daily commuter it doesn’t take me anywhere I need to go. I would happily dump the Circulator for much more frequent Ride On buses (every 23 minutes during Rush hour is way too slow.)

The circulator model is a good model. And Ride-on buses generally are not designed for efficiency or convenience - they are designed for coverage.

But the Bethesda circulator route is just stupid - it is basically what you allude to - a gee whiz bus route that is a solution seeking a problem. In this case the solution is short range feed to the Bethesda Metro. But the route is so close to the Metro that most healthy people are going to spend the 5-10 minutes walking rather than waiting for a bus that doesn't get them where they are going any quicker. But a circulator route that ran in understandable straight lines from the Metro to neighborhoods within 2-3 miles ought to work - you have to make the bus more appealing than driving.

+1. Even with my 3 and 6 year old, we walk from one end of Bethesda to the other. In 10 years in the area, I have one taken the circulator because there was a rainstorm and we happened to see the bus there.

How is the circulator model a good one if it has low ridership despite being free? I truly don't get it. And why can't Ride-On buses be designed to cover areas efficiently? One of the biggest shocks I had moving from DC to Maryland was the downgrade in the caliber of public bus service. Many more people would take Ride-On if it were more frequent (i.e. more reliable as a part of a daily commute.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That is pretty low ridership for a route with that frequency - if the schedule is right they are running about 96 buses a day so that means about 12 people per run. One of the lower frequency buses I ride in DC carries about 7,000 people a day.

Good grief. Frequency is certainly a major factor in ridership, but it's not the only factor.

Agreed. But DC buses are 2$ a ride and the circulator is free so even accounting for some lower population density the Circulator doesn’t have greater ride on numbers. I’ve taken it once or twice with my kids as a “whee-we’re riding on a bus around Bethesda” thing, but as a daily commuter it doesn’t take me anywhere I need to go. I would happily dump the Circulator for much more frequent Ride On buses (every 23 minutes during Rush hour is way too slow.)

The circulator model is a good model. And Ride-on buses generally are not designed for efficiency or convenience - they are designed for coverage.

But the Bethesda circulator route is just stupid - it is basically what you allude to - a gee whiz bus route that is a solution seeking a problem. In this case the solution is short range feed to the Bethesda Metro. But the route is so close to the Metro that most healthy people are going to spend the 5-10 minutes walking rather than waiting for a bus that doesn't get them where they are going any quicker. But a circulator route that ran in understandable straight lines from the Metro to neighborhoods within 2-3 miles ought to work - you have to make the bus more appealing than driving.

+1. Even with my 3 and 6 year old, we walk from one end of Bethesda to the other. In 10 years in the area, I have one taken the circulator because there was a rainstorm and we happened to see the bus there.

How is the circulator model a good one if it has low ridership despite being free? I truly don't get it. And why can't Ride-On buses be designed to cover areas efficiently? One of the biggest shocks I had moving from DC to Maryland was the downgrade in the caliber of public bus service. Many more people would take Ride-On if it were more frequent (i.e. more reliable as a part of a daily commute.)

I'm not the PP you responded to but the point is that what Bethesda has is not really a circulator in the sense of what DC has. The DC model runs every 10 minutes along simple linear routes. So if you are at 11th and K and want to go to 30th and K you know there will be a bus that goes every 10 minutes up and down K Street.

The Bethesda Circulator follows the every 10 minute model but runs on a convoluted and in-efficient route instead of say running back and forth on Wisconsin Avenue. Same thing with the Ride-on routes - they run every 20 or 25 minutes so if you don't want to wait a long time in the cold you need to time your arrival or hope everything aligns. Then you have to figure out the routes which don't say just run up Old Georgetown but instead jump on and off the road at random intervals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That is pretty low ridership for a route with that frequency - if the schedule is right they are running about 96 buses a day so that means about 12 people per run. One of the lower frequency buses I ride in DC carries about 7,000 people a day.

Good grief. Frequency is certainly a major factor in ridership, but it's not the only factor.

Agreed. But DC buses are 2$ a ride and the circulator is free so even accounting for some lower population density the Circulator doesn’t have greater ride on numbers. I’ve taken it once or twice with my kids as a “whee-we’re riding on a bus around Bethesda” thing, but as a daily commuter it doesn’t take me anywhere I need to go. I would happily dump the Circulator for much more frequent Ride On buses (every 23 minutes during Rush hour is way too slow.)

The circulator model is a good model. And Ride-on buses generally are not designed for efficiency or convenience - they are designed for coverage.

But the Bethesda circulator route is just stupid - it is basically what you allude to - a gee whiz bus route that is a solution seeking a problem. In this case the solution is short range feed to the Bethesda Metro. But the route is so close to the Metro that most healthy people are going to spend the 5-10 minutes walking rather than waiting for a bus that doesn't get them where they are going any quicker. But a circulator route that ran in understandable straight lines from the Metro to neighborhoods within 2-3 miles ought to work - you have to make the bus more appealing than driving.

+1. Even with my 3 and 6 year old, we walk from one end of Bethesda to the other. In 10 years in the area, I have one taken the circulator because there was a rainstorm and we happened to see the bus there.

How is the circulator model a good one if it has low ridership despite being free? I truly don't get it. And why can't Ride-On buses be designed to cover areas efficiently? One of the biggest shocks I had moving from DC to Maryland was the downgrade in the caliber of public bus service. Many more people would take Ride-On if it were more frequent (i.e. more reliable as a part of a daily commute.)

I'm not the PP you responded to but the point is that what Bethesda has is not really a circulator in the sense of what DC has. The DC model runs every 10 minutes along simple linear routes. So if you are at 11th and K and want to go to 30th and K you know there will be a bus that goes every 10 minutes up and down K Street.

The Bethesda Circulator follows the every 10 minute model but runs on a convoluted and in-efficient route instead of say running back and forth on Wisconsin Avenue. Same thing with the Ride-on routes - they run every 20 or 25 minutes so if you don't want to wait a long time in the cold you need to time your arrival or hope everything aligns. Then you have to figure out the routes which don't say just run up Old Georgetown but instead jump on and off the road at random intervals.

Yes, I'm not talking about the DC circulator (which has a 1$ charge, and predictable routes). I'm talking about the Bethesda Circulator since this thread is about MoCo, and I'm still not understanding why anyone would call it a good model of anything. Who is this Bethesda Urban Partnership who runs it and do they use tax dollars to subsidize the free routes to nowhere?

[Anonymous]

variable market pricing. prices should be dynamic to reflect demand/supply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:variable market pricing. prices should be dynamic to reflect demand/supply.

Not sure what you're talking about. So the price should be 0$ for the Bethesda Circulator because there is 0 demand?

[Anonymous]

The County is not a for profit entity looking to make money off of the services it provides. It's goal is to provide services that improve the county for residents, businesses, and visitors -- and one such service is to provide parking in certain areas of the county. Many services provided by the county don't make money -- some don't even charge anything to use -- but that doesn't mean that the county should not provide them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The County is not a for profit entity looking to make money off of the services it provides. It's goal is to provide services that improve the county for residents, businesses, and visitors -- and one such service is to provide parking in certain areas of the county. Many services provided by the county don't make money -- some don't even charge anything to use -- but that doesn't mean that the county should not provide them.

At first blush this sounds like a valid argument.

Except 1) Why should the county provide something that the private sector already provides an abundance of (though in Montgomery County that in part is because the county requires it) and 2) should the county be subsidizing an activity that runs counter to many of it stated policies?

I'd love it if the county provided me and everyone else with greatly discounted pizzas and lost money on the endeavor but I'm hard pressed to think of a compelling reason for such a subsidy.

For what it is worth neither DC nor Arlington subsidize parking and both are booming right now.

[Anonymous]

The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

Well it doesn't sound like you go there much now with the parking status quo, so why should someone care that you're avoiding the area? More urban types who are inclined to walk or bus to restaurants and live in town will be far more lucrative for retail owners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

More than 1 parking space per unit is way more than needed for new housing new high quality transit, which certainly describes downtown Bethesda.

If households need more than 1 car they can buy elsewhere and it really doesn't make sense for someone who is going to drive everywhere to even live in Bethesda as you aren't taking advantage of the primary benefit of living there. Parking spaces are expensive and unnecessarily drive up the cost of housing.

I get that your experience is every adult in the household needs a car and needs to use the car for every trip but many people live differently and that is a good thing for everyone.

Our family of 4 with two very programmed kids and 2 working adults has gotten by comfortably with 1 car and we are in a less transit friendly location than downtown Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The minimum parking required by the Montgomery County planning board does not come close to match the actual parking spots needed for the density being built. For example, 600 units, 35% of which are two and three bedroom units, 800 parking spots. Guess what, there's going to be families, roommates, Etc, and more than 200 of the 600 units will have more than one driver, with a car. And yet that's what's encouraged (this actaul example is for the 2 high rise buildings at the Pookshill Marriott site).

As far as Bethesda, I live less than 2 miles from downtown Bethesda, and we rarely go there. Why? Because parking sucks, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes driving around looking for parking, or getting stuck in a long line in a garage. There are plenty of places to go where I can easily find a parking spot, and that's what we do. Limit the parking, you'll have even more families like us just avoiding the area.

Well it doesn't sound like you go there much now with the parking status quo, so why should someone care that you're avoiding the area? More urban types who are inclined to walk or bus to restaurants and live in town will be far more lucrative for retail owners.

No one goes there anymore - its gotten too crowded!

If you are two miles away you likely have multiple other ways to get to Bethesda - you probably have public transit options and Uber/Lyft for a trip of that distance probably isn't much more than the cost of parking. And biking is certainly an option for distances of 2 miles, particularly if you are lucky enough to live along the trail.

The crazy thing is parking is not hard in Bethesda - the only garage that is hard to find a space in is the Bethesda Row public parking garage and stupidly the county doesn't charge for parking in it on the weekend. The private garage under Bethesda Barracks or whatever it is called is always half empty and the other public parking garages, a couple of which are nearby, are never full on the weekends.

But suburbanites are lazy and think not only should parking be free but it should be super convenient because of course that is what the car ads all tell them.

Luckily after 30 years of bad development policies Montgomery County seems to understand the need to do things differently and in any case the densification of Bethesda means the business district won't need people to drive 2 miles to eat there because there will be ample people living downtown to support what is there. So enjoy Montgomery Mall or Rio or wherever else you go to because you are too lazy to walk or pay for parking.