Does anyone have language immersion regrets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh FFS. Do you want to insist that every parent who enrolls their kid in Reggio Emilia promise to give back to the arts community or only enroll kids who are going to study art through college and beyond? Nobody knows what our PK3 kids are going to be good at or what path our families are going to take. Get over yourselves.

That is a nonsense comparison because you’re not relying on a beleaguered and discriminated on arts community to educate your children and integrarte them into your culture. Are you so blind to your privilege and so engrained in your xenophobia and racism that you cant understand that?

As a Spanish speaker with kids at an immersion school, I just want to say that this person does not represent my culture and values. My culture is warm and welcoming, and we love when people learn our language. We also know enough about real xenophobia to not call people racists for WANTING THEIR KIDS TO LEARN OUR LANGUAGE. Xenophobia is the opposite of that, in fact.

All the families at our immersion school are all part of a great community that all contribute to making a great school. The idea that the English speaking families (who contribute lots of money, time, effort, food, skill, etc.) to the school are somehow taking away from the Spanish speaking community is sad and very off base. In fact, the English speaking community is much more involved generally than the Spanish speaking families, and getting the Spanish speaking families involved is a big goal of the PTO.

This poster seems sad, confused and bitter. I actually doubt that she has kids at any immersion school, and she definitely does not represent our community AT ALL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The main things I've gleaned from this thread are:

1. Some people whose kids go to Yu Ying don't like Yu Ying.

2. Some people whose kids don't go to Spanish-language immersion schools are quite bitter towards people whose kids do go to Spanish-language immersion schools.

3. Some DC public immersion schools have a decidedly fake feel as actual immersion schools, but a genuine feel as bastions of UMC networking. The programs pretend to teach kids to speak languages decently because they can get away with it.

[Anonymous]

Ha ha.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the hate, pp. It is weird how angry people get when a white (or black) kid learns a second language. Some of us don't have the means to hire tutors and travel to other countries. I know I don't ans neither do many of the kids in my DD's class. So I guess some of you would be happy to take away the opportunity for our kids to learn another language and give it to "someone more deserving". I can't tell if this is sour grapes or hatred or something else.

Sorry, PP, but you've missed the point. The DC "immersion" schools aren't set up in a manner adequately supporting language learning for families like yours. They just pretend they are. If you visit one of the MoCo immersion programs, you'll see what I mean. Those programs offer intensive summer immersion programs that are means tested. They also provide regular after-school tutoring in the target language for free. Without a good cohort of native speaking peers, the kids whose families don't speak the language and can't afford tutors, au pairs, foreign travel etc. are at a real disadvantage in picking up the language because they aren't getting exposure on the playground, in the hallways, the cafeteria etc. The system basically sucks because it favors affluent families in a big way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a tutor! This is the delusional DC immersion charter mentality in a nutshell.

We have a tutor, so the kid speaks the language well. Never mind the fact that we know little about this language and culture and don't have ethnic friends or neighbors who speak this language with our child. We deny that the kid needs a Chinese-speaking adult in the home or bilingual peers to speak this language.

Totally ridiculous.

Oh, for the love of all things. Don’t let your own agenda get in the way of facts. I assume you are responding to me, though I never said anything about my child’s proficiency. We do have Chinese-speaking friends, in fact, one of my dearest friends and oldest colleagues is Chinese and I have been to China many times for work. I have taken my kid with me twice with this friend, since our children are friends. She is the one who hooked us up with our tutor, as she is very involved with a heritage school in Rockville (her kids are MCPS). I know my kid speaks okay, not great, Chinese. We are not sure if we will continue with DCI as my kid has other strengths and we have always planned on private school for HS.

However, I have zero regrets about YY—as I mentioned before it’s a great little school and has given us a wonderful education. Sometimes elementary school is just elementary school, you know? It’s not necessary to freak out too much.

PS my friend has some very funny insights into the Chinese community and the entrenched hatred toward YY that I do not have permission to share. Suffice it to say that I am not in any way delusional. Cheers!

I don't think I'm the PP you're responding to either. Don't have permission to share, please. The Metro area bilingual Chinese community doesn't hate YY - waste of time. The way the program runs make it irrelevant to immigrants and ABCs whose families speak Chinese at home. These families focus on taking advantage of strong MoCo ES academics, especially "compacted math," and MS and HS Mandarin with dialect transition support. The heritage school people who've heard of YY (like us) tend to know that the program doesn't attract bilingual admins or students, but does draw a really small number of Chinese-speaking parents. They also know that YY has no interest in developing ties w/the ethnic community and their heritage programs. Enough said.

PP- you’re right. Parents who put their kids in Yu Ying should give back to the ethnic Chinese community here. Couldn’t agree more.

I am one of the prior posters, and I assure you we are not blade about the language part. Not sure why you think that from my post. The whole reason we are in the program is that we think learning a second language is very important. And maybe my child will someday use those skills to 'give back to the community,' as you suggest. It's more likely than if he were not learning a language. I really can't understand why people get upset at other's desire to learn to communicate with people outside of their native language. Isn't it a good thing??

So important that you don’t bother to learn it yourself?

So important that you don’t bother giving back to the community you’re exploiting?

So important that you don’t prioritize learning the language in your life?

Nah that is total BS and you know it. Don’t be so lazy and make those changes which would actually HELP YOUR CHILD.

People like you are so blind to exploitation you think it’s your right.

Omg, what are you talking about??? How do you know we don't do those things? How in earth can you assume we are lazy, exploitive, not learning Spanish ourselves, etc? Regardless, what you are saying is that unless a family can do all the things you mention, then they should not pursue a second language for their child? And if they do so they are bad people? That is so messed up. You complain about exploitation but then want to insist that people stick with their native language, essentially becoming more insular.

I think it's pretty bizarre to attach such negative intentions and qualities to families who are just taking advantage of an available school opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the hate, pp. It is weird how angry people get when a white (or black) kid learns a second language. Some of us don't have the means to hire tutors and travel to other countries. I know I don't ans neither do many of the kids in my DD's class. So I guess some of you would be happy to take away the opportunity for our kids to learn another language and give it to "someone more deserving". I can't tell if this is sour grapes or hatred or something else.

Sorry, PP, but you've missed the point. The DC "immersion" schools aren't set up in a manner adequately supporting language learning for families like yours. They just pretend they are. If you visit one of the MoCo immersion programs, you'll see what I mean. Those programs offer intensive summer immersion programs that are means tested. They also provide regular after-school tutoring in the target language for free. Without a good cohort of native speaking peers, the kids whose families don't speak the language and can't afford tutors, au pairs, foreign travel etc. are at a real disadvantage in picking up the language because they aren't getting exposure on the playground, in the hallways, the cafeteria etc. The system basically sucks because it favors affluent families in a big way.

THIS!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the hate, pp. It is weird how angry people get when a white (or black) kid learns a second language. Some of us don't have the means to hire tutors and travel to other countries. I know I don't ans neither do many of the kids in my DD's class. So I guess some of you would be happy to take away the opportunity for our kids to learn another language and give it to "someone more deserving". I can't tell if this is sour grapes or hatred or something else.

Sorry, PP, but you've missed the point. The DC "immersion" schools aren't set up in a manner adequately supporting language learning for families like yours. They just pretend they are. If you visit one of the MoCo immersion programs, you'll see what I mean. Those programs offer intensive summer immersion programs that are means tested. They also provide regular after-school tutoring in the target language for free. Without a good cohort of native speaking peers, the kids whose families don't speak the language and can't afford tutors, au pairs, foreign travel etc. are at a real disadvantage in picking up the language because they aren't getting exposure on the playground, in the hallways, the cafeteria etc. The system basically sucks because it favors affluent families in a big way.

THIS!

And yet, the way charter laws are written means that in the name of equity, there is no Spanish dominant preference. But the outcome is that the school favors the affluent, English dominant.

If there were a Spanish (or target language) dominant lottery at charters, like there is at DCPS, this conversation would be moot because the school could balance the classrooms to have approximately equal numbers of native speakers and non-native (and then you can argue about that balance). That alone would raise the quality of language learning on both sides, for ELL and English dominant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh FFS. Do you want to insist that every parent who enrolls their kid in Reggio Emilia promise to give back to the arts community or only enroll kids who are going to study art through college and beyond? Nobody knows what our PK3 kids are going to be good at or what path our families are going to take. Get over yourselves.

That is a nonsense comparison because you’re not relying on a beleaguered and discriminated on arts community to educate your children and integrarte them into your culture. Are you so blind to your privilege and so engrained in your xenophobia and racism that you cant understand that?

As a Spanish speaker with kids at an immersion school, I just want to say that this person does not represent my culture and values. My culture is warm and welcoming, and we love when people learn our language. We also know enough about real xenophobia to not call people racists for WANTING THEIR KIDS TO LEARN OUR LANGUAGE. Xenophobia is the opposite of that, in fact.

All the families at our immersion school are all part of a great community that all contribute to making a great school. The idea that the English speaking families (who contribute lots of money, time, effort, food, skill, etc.) to the school are somehow taking away from the Spanish speaking community is sad and very off base. In fact, the English speaking community is much more involved generally than the Spanish speaking families, and getting the Spanish speaking families involved is a big goal of the PTO.

This poster seems sad, confused and bitter. I actually doubt that she has kids at any immersion school, and she definitely does not represent our community AT ALL.

Thank you, PP. This is the same feel I get from our kid's immersion school (not Spanish). Immersion schools aren't perfect, and I'd support a preference for native speakers along with more free/low-cost resources for parents to learn if they don't speak the language. However, it is a GOOD thing that more Americans want their kids to be bilingual, IMO, however imperfect their acquisition may be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh FFS. Do you want to insist that every parent who enrolls their kid in Reggio Emilia promise to give back to the arts community or only enroll kids who are going to study art through college and beyond? Nobody knows what our PK3 kids are going to be good at or what path our families are going to take. Get over yourselves.

That is a nonsense comparison because you’re not relying on a beleaguered and discriminated on arts community to educate your children and integrarte them into your culture. Are you so blind to your privilege and so engrained in your xenophobia and racism that you cant understand that?

As a Spanish speaker with kids at an immersion school, I just want to say that this person does not represent my culture and values. My culture is warm and welcoming, and we love when people learn our language. We also know enough about real xenophobia to not call people racists for WANTING THEIR KIDS TO LEARN OUR LANGUAGE. Xenophobia is the opposite of that, in fact.

All the families at our immersion school are all part of a great community that all contribute to making a great school. The idea that the English speaking families (who contribute lots of money, time, effort, food, skill, etc.) to the school are somehow taking away from the Spanish speaking community is sad and very off base. In fact, the English speaking community is much more involved generally than the Spanish speaking families, and getting the Spanish speaking families involved is a big goal of the PTO.

This poster seems sad, confused and bitter. I actually doubt that she has kids at any immersion school, and she definitely does not represent our community AT ALL.

I’m a Latinx person who speaks Spanish. Families who don’t speak Spanish generally don’t contribute to the school. They keep standards low because the teachers have to do so much to bring those kids up to the level where they need to be. Parents don’t work hard on Spanish because they don’t prioritize it. It really upsetting. PP completely missed the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a tutor! This is the delusional DC immersion charter mentality in a nutshell.

We have a tutor, so the kid speaks the language well. Never mind the fact that we know little about this language and culture and don't have ethnic friends or neighbors who speak this language with our child. We deny that the kid needs a Chinese-speaking adult in the home or bilingual peers to speak this language.

Totally ridiculous.

Oh, for the love of all things. Don’t let your own agenda get in the way of facts. I assume you are responding to me, though I never said anything about my child’s proficiency. We do have Chinese-speaking friends, in fact, one of my dearest friends and oldest colleagues is Chinese and I have been to China many times for work. I have taken my kid with me twice with this friend, since our children are friends. She is the one who hooked us up with our tutor, as she is very involved with a heritage school in Rockville (her kids are MCPS). I know my kid speaks okay, not great, Chinese. We are not sure if we will continue with DCI as my kid has other strengths and we have always planned on private school for HS.

However, I have zero regrets about YY—as I mentioned before it’s a great little school and has given us a wonderful education. Sometimes elementary school is just elementary school, you know? It’s not necessary to freak out too much.

PS my friend has some very funny insights into the Chinese community and the entrenched hatred toward YY that I do not have permission to share. Suffice it to say that I am not in any way delusional. Cheers!

I don't think I'm the PP you're responding to either. Don't have permission to share, please. The Metro area bilingual Chinese community doesn't hate YY - waste of time. The way the program runs make it irrelevant to immigrants and ABCs whose families speak Chinese at home. These families focus on taking advantage of strong MoCo ES academics, especially "compacted math," and MS and HS Mandarin with dialect transition support. The heritage school people who've heard of YY (like us) tend to know that the program doesn't attract bilingual admins or students, but does draw a really small number of Chinese-speaking parents. They also know that YY has no interest in developing ties w/the ethnic community and their heritage programs. Enough said.

PP- you’re right. Parents who put their kids in Yu Ying should give back to the ethnic Chinese community here. Couldn’t agree more.

I am one of the prior posters, and I assure you we are not blade about the language part. Not sure why you think that from my post. The whole reason we are in the program is that we think learning a second language is very important. And maybe my child will someday use those skills to 'give back to the community,' as you suggest. It's more likely than if he were not learning a language. I really can't understand why people get upset at other's desire to learn to communicate with people outside of their native language. Isn't it a good thing??

So important that you don’t bother to learn it yourself?

So important that you don’t bother giving back to the community you’re exploiting?

So important that you don’t prioritize learning the language in your life?

Nah that is total BS and you know it. Don’t be so lazy and make those changes which would actually HELP YOUR CHILD.

People like you are so blind to exploitation you think it’s your right.

Omg, what are you talking about??? How do you know we don't do those things? How in earth can you assume we are lazy, exploitive, not learning Spanish ourselves, etc? Regardless, what you are saying is that unless a family can do all the things you mention, then they should not pursue a second language for their child? And if they do so they are bad people? That is so messed up. You complain about exploitation but then want to insist that people stick with their native language, essentially becoming more insular.

I think it's pretty bizarre to attach such negative intentions and qualities to families who are just taking advantage of an available school opportunity.

You’re relying on a community that is suffering. You are obligated to help. Since you yourself PP said “maybe our child will give back one day” it is clear YOU DONT. Don’t be disingenuous, you know absolutely that you only care about bragging to others about your child’s “fluency” and have not considered once what you can do in return from a community that is giving your child so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always find it interesting that all the families who aren’t native speakers are confident that their kids speak “tons” of the target language. How are you confident of this? How do you know your preschooler is “fluent”?

This attitude is so tiresome. Of course kids in immersion aren't perfectly fluent (especially before age 10!); just like many people with second languages aren't perfect in the second language. I bet compared to before, the child does know 'tons' of the language. The point is to start down the road to fluency - some will get there sooner than others - thus teaching kids an important life skill in this shrinking world and potentially opening up more opportunities down the road. My DS, while probably not a perfect Spanish speaker, appears to communicate effectively with other Spanish speakers, and he's only 8 - I have enough knowledge of Spanish to feel confident about this. I imagine it will get even better as time goes on. Another perk is that it provides extra challenge at school.

It's fine if you don't prioritize second languages - maybe your kid does math club, or a sport, or plays an instrument. I doubt they will have achieved perfection in those skills by age 10, but that doesn't mean there isn't value.

+1. If we moved for a few years to Mexico or Spain or wherever, and we put our kids in the local schools, no one would say how terrible that is for our kids because we have no intention of living in Mexico, Spain, et al for the rest of our lives. People would say, "Oh what a great experience for them."

What you’re conveniently forgetting is that you’re not contributing anything back to the community. All you gringos with a few years of Spanish or French or whatever under your belt don’t remember is that there are parents whose kids really do speak that target language. And due to regulations imposed by Congress, our kids don’t get any preference at all. I really don’t care so much when I see parents trying hard and getting tutors or traveling to improve language skills (and starting at PK3). However, parents like the two PPs have low expectations and prevent the class from really achieving biliteracy, because they’re struggling with the remedial skills of your English speaking kids, really really bother me. I feel that schools should make parents sign a contract saying they will learn the target language also, and that they will do everything they can to support the language.

Also, if you’re at an immersion school, you should be volunteering or donating money or doing what you can to help the immigrant community that is helping to educate your kids.

Is that all? Do you have any other instructions on how I should live my life? It sounds like you have so much to teach. Please unburden yourself.

I mean go make America great again, and keep on take take taking from immigrants if that’s what you want to do. I can’t force you to be a good person. Hopefully your kid will learn kindness and generosity and hard work from his immigrant teachers since he/she/they aren’t going to learn it from you.

What does this word salad even mean?

It’s easy to pretend not to understand when you’re called out for the lousy person you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh FFS. Do you want to insist that every parent who enrolls their kid in Reggio Emilia promise to give back to the arts community or only enroll kids who are going to study art through college and beyond? Nobody knows what our PK3 kids are going to be good at or what path our families are going to take. Get over yourselves.

That is a nonsense comparison because you’re not relying on a beleaguered and discriminated on arts community to educate your children and integrarte them into your culture. Are you so blind to your privilege and so engrained in your xenophobia and racism that you cant understand that?

My kid goes to Sela, so STFU.

So it’s cool to use immigrants for your purposes and do nothing in return?

[Anonymous]

You rock, PP. It's a no brainer - Congress needs to wake up and amend the charter law to accommodate dual language lotteries to help low-income bilingual families, and DC needs to change tweak LEA arrangements for charters to the same end. Otherwise, DC will be stuck with these predominantly high SES skim milk immersion charters indefinitely.

The same would be true for French and Chinese, since both languages are spoken at home by cohorts of low-income DC residents. There are Haitian and West African immigrant communities in DC speaking French in the home. American-Born Chinese, the type who seek out YY and feel comfortable there, rarely teach their children to speak their family dialects in this generation. It's primarily low-income DC Chinese, mainly in the restaurant community, who still speak Chinese at home. We know two low-SES Chinese immigrant families who lasted less than a school year at YY from our volunteer work with the Chinese Benevolent Association in Chinatown. The parents felt out of place in the school community, where admins and other parents had no clue about their situations/dialects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The main things I've gleaned from this thread are:

1. Some people whose kids go to Yu Ying don't like Yu Ying.

2. Some people whose kids don't go to Spanish-language immersion schools are quite bitter towards people whose kids do go to Spanish-language immersion schools.

Improve your reading comprehension.

3. If you’re going to go to an immersion school, you should truly prioritize that language, start learning it yourself, try to travel to a place where your child can hear native speakers, and you should volunteer to help that community.

4. Americans believe it is their right to exploit immigrants and get really angry when called out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You rock, PP. It's a no brainer - Congress needs to wake up and amend the charter law to accommodate dual language lotteries to help low-income bilingual families, and DC needs to change tweak LEA arrangements for charters to the same end. Otherwise, DC will be stuck with these predominantly high SES skim milk immersion charters indefinitely.

The same would be true for French and Chinese, since both languages are spoken at home by cohorts of low-income DC residents. There are Haitian and West African immigrant communities in DC speaking French in the home. American-Born Chinese, the type who seek out YY and feel comfortable there, rarely teach their children to speak their family dialects in this generation. It's primarily low-income DC Chinese, mainly in the restaurant community, who still speak Chinese at home. We know two low-SES Chinese immigrant families who lasted less than a school year at YY from our volunteer work with the Chinese Benevolent Association in Chinatown. The parents felt out of place in the school community, where admins and other parents had no clue about their situations/dialects.

Totally agree PP.