Shaw Middle School -- what's the plan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's why I think that Francis-Stevens middle school should go away and all the kids who go there AND all the kids who would go to Shaw MS should have a single MS feeder....which could be Cardozo. Then people won't feel like they need to advocate against opening a new middle school for fear of losing one they see as workable.

You do realize that just means no one will stay in DCPS for 5th and up, right?

this. No one with options wants to send their kids to Cardozo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's why I think that Francis-Stevens middle school should go away and all the kids who go there AND all the kids who would go to Shaw MS should have a single MS feeder....which could be Cardozo. Then people won't feel like they need to advocate against opening a new middle school for fear of losing one they see as workable.

You do realize that just means no one will stay in DCPS for 5th and up, right?

this. No one with options wants to send their kids to Cardozo.

But that is not immutable. If Cardozo MS feeders were Janney, Lafayette, Eaton, Brent, Ross, and Francis-Stevens (to give a ridiculous example), plenty of parents would send their kids there. The building is nice. It's relatively easy to get to. It would be big enough to offer a variety of classes and extracurriculars and have plenty of well-prepared students entering. Yes, there would be older kids in the same building. But that is not the end of the world. Plenty of pk3 parents at Francis-Stevens probably freak out about the middle schoolers being there and then they get over it. It's possible to have a middle and high school share a building without the kids mingling, and it opens up opportunities like middle schoolers being able to take AP classes if they are super advanced.

There are always going to be BASIS or bust parents and families that leave for the burbs. But if Francis-Stevens middle school is good enough for your kids, then the exact same feeder kids plus the ones who'd go to Shaw (so Cleveland, Garrison, Ross, Seaton, Thomson, and F-S, the latter of which would send more kids because there'd be more space with the middle school gone) seems like a pretty good option. And Cardozo is a way nicer building for big kids, with an outdoor track, a swimming pool, nice auditorium and gym, an aviation (FLEX-ACE) and other science labs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's why I think that Francis-Stevens middle school should go away and all the kids who go there AND all the kids who would go to Shaw MS should have a single MS feeder....which could be Cardozo. Then people won't feel like they need to advocate against opening a new middle school for fear of losing one they see as workable.

You do realize that just means no one will stay in DCPS for 5th and up, right?

this. No one with options wants to send their kids to Cardozo.

But that is not immutable. If Cardozo MS feeders were Janney, Lafayette, Eaton, Brent, Ross, and Francis-Stevens (to give a ridiculous example), plenty of parents would send their kids there. The building is nice. It's relatively easy to get to. It would be big enough to offer a variety of classes and extracurriculars and have plenty of well-prepared students entering. Yes, there would be older kids in the same building. But that is not the end of the world. Plenty of pk3 parents at Francis-Stevens probably freak out about the middle schoolers being there and then they get over it. It's possible to have a middle and high school share a building without the kids mingling, and it opens up opportunities like middle schoolers being able to take AP classes if they are super advanced.

There are always going to be BASIS or bust parents and families that leave for the burbs. But if Francis-Stevens middle school is good enough for your kids, then the exact same feeder kids plus the ones who'd go to Shaw (so Cleveland, Garrison, Ross, Seaton, Thomson, and F-S, the latter of which would send more kids because there'd be more space with the middle school gone) seems like a pretty good option. And Cardozo is a way nicer building for big kids, with an outdoor track, a swimming pool, nice auditorium and gym, an aviation (FLEX-ACE) and other science labs.

Sure. It can happen, but not quickly. Look how long it has taken for Hardy (with Key, Stoddert, Hyde-Addison, etc feeding) to attract a regular cohort of in boundary kids. Cardozo currently reports 4% on grade level and 0% advanced in Math. A little better for ELA but still single digits. What educated middle class parent would sign up for that - unless they had no choice? And educated middle class parents have choices. They prep. their kids for test in schools, lottery for charters and move to the burbs.

[Anonymous]

I guess I'm just wondering why Francis-Stevens is fine but Cardozo with the same feeders plus Cleveland, Garrison, and Seaton would not be.

Is it that people like the Francis-Stevens building or location better?
A fear of having HS students in the same building?
Not wanting the Cleveland, Garrison, and Seaton kids?

It can't be the lack of a middle school principal because F-S doesn't have that either. It probably shouldn't be the teaching staff since those turn over so quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess I'm just wondering why Francis-Stevens is fine but Cardozo with the same feeders plus Cleveland, Garrison, and Seaton would not be.

Is it that people like the Francis-Stevens building or location better?
A fear of having HS students in the same building?
Not wanting the Cleveland, Garrison, and Seaton kids?

It can't be the lack of a middle school principal because F-S doesn't have that either. It probably shouldn't be the teaching staff since those turn over so quickly.

It is because Cardozo middle and high are low-performing. A lot more principal-ing work will be needed to turn them around. It is just too much of a job for any one person.

Also, Cardozo Middle has had a new AP almost every year. No leadership continuity. Without the title of Principal, APs tend to get promoted or leave for whatever reason.

[Anonymous]

And because SWW F-S has a small and controlled feeder group of schools and very, very few kids entering from outside of those feeders at middle school. Because almost no one gets in from OOB, the school has a significant advantage in terms of student body continuity, strong knowledge of the kids it serves, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I'm just wondering why Francis-Stevens is fine but Cardozo with the same feeders plus Cleveland, Garrison, and Seaton would not be.

Is it that people like the Francis-Stevens building or location better?
A fear of having HS students in the same building?
Not wanting the Cleveland, Garrison, and Seaton kids?

It can't be the lack of a middle school principal because F-S doesn't have that either. It probably shouldn't be the teaching staff since those turn over so quickly.

It is because Cardozo middle and high are low-performing. A lot more principal-ing work will be needed to turn them around. It is just too much of a job for any one person.

Also, Cardozo Middle has had a new AP almost every year. No leadership continuity. Without the title of Principal, APs tend to get promoted or leave for whatever reason.

It's not just academic performance but the indicators for school safety and satisfaction are very poor at Cardozo. Compared to FS, there are more suspensions, absences, and student turn-over (take a look at the most recent Equity reports). I also think that having a smaller middle school with a smaller pool of high-achieving feeder elementary schools like FS, Ross, and Thomson, will allow FS to be a high-quality desirable MS faster than Shaw MS or Cardozo. The fact is there are more struggling kids at Garrison and Cleveland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's why I think that Francis-Stevens middle school should go away and all the kids who go there AND all the kids who would go to Shaw MS should have a single MS feeder....which could be Cardozo. Then people won't feel like they need to advocate against opening a new middle school for fear of losing one they see as workable.

You do realize that just means no one will stay in DCPS for 5th and up, right?

this. No one with options wants to send their kids to Cardozo.

But that is not immutable. If Cardozo MS feeders were Janney, Lafayette, Eaton, Brent, Ross, and Francis-Stevens (to give a ridiculous example), plenty of parents would send their kids there. The building is nice. It's relatively easy to get to. It would be big enough to offer a variety of classes and extracurriculars and have plenty of well-prepared students entering. Yes, there would be older kids in the same building. But that is not the end of the world. Plenty of pk3 parents at Francis-Stevens probably freak out about the middle schoolers being there and then they get over it. It's possible to have a middle and high school share a building without the kids mingling, and it opens up opportunities like middle schoolers being able to take AP classes if they are super advanced.

There are always going to be BASIS or bust parents and families that leave for the burbs. But if Francis-Stevens middle school is good enough for your kids, then the exact same feeder kids plus the ones who'd go to Shaw (so Cleveland, Garrison, Ross, Seaton, Thomson, and F-S, the latter of which would send more kids because there'd be more space with the middle school gone) seems like a pretty good option. And Cardozo is a way nicer building for big kids, with an outdoor track, a swimming pool, nice auditorium and gym, an aviation (FLEX-ACE) and other science labs.

This, it is the kids not the school. As long as those kids are there, parents with options will not send their kids there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's why I think that Francis-Stevens middle school should go away and all the kids who go there AND all the kids who would go to Shaw MS should have a single MS feeder....which could be Cardozo. Then people won't feel like they need to advocate against opening a new middle school for fear of losing one they see as workable.

You do realize that just means no one will stay in DCPS for 5th and up, right?

this. No one with options wants to send their kids to Cardozo.

But that is not immutable. If Cardozo MS feeders were Janney, Lafayette, Eaton, Brent, Ross, and Francis-Stevens (to give a ridiculous example), plenty of parents would send their kids there. The building is nice. It's relatively easy to get to. It would be big enough to offer a variety of classes and extracurriculars and have plenty of well-prepared students entering. Yes, there would be older kids in the same building. But that is not the end of the world. Plenty of pk3 parents at Francis-Stevens probably freak out about the middle schoolers being there and then they get over it. It's possible to have a middle and high school share a building without the kids mingling, and it opens up opportunities like middle schoolers being able to take AP classes if they are super advanced.

There are always going to be BASIS or bust parents and families that leave for the burbs. But if Francis-Stevens middle school is good enough for your kids, then the exact same feeder kids plus the ones who'd go to Shaw (so Cleveland, Garrison, Ross, Seaton, Thomson, and F-S, the latter of which would send more kids because there'd be more space with the middle school gone) seems like a pretty good option. And Cardozo is a way nicer building for big kids, with an outdoor track, a swimming pool, nice auditorium and gym, an aviation (FLEX-ACE) and other science labs.

This, it is the kids not the school. As long as those kids are there, parents with options will not send their kids there.

No, it's both. It's not the kids' fault Cardozo burns through middle school APs. If downtown wanted to give someone a 3-year contract, they could.

[Anonymous]

But the population of kids will change as the feeders change. I agree that a change can be made. I also agree that DCPS needs to give a longer leadership contract in order to attract someone talented who will commit for multiple years. It is simply ridiculous that DC is creating these beautiful school buildings and nobody will go near them and in fact prefer crappy charter facilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's why I think that Francis-Stevens middle school should go away and all the kids who go there AND all the kids who would go to Shaw MS should have a single MS feeder....which could be Cardozo. Then people won't feel like they need to advocate against opening a new middle school for fear of losing one they see as workable.

You do realize that just means no one will stay in DCPS for 5th and up, right?

this. No one with options wants to send their kids to Cardozo.

But that is not immutable. If Cardozo MS feeders were Janney, Lafayette, Eaton, Brent, Ross, and Francis-Stevens (to give a ridiculous example), plenty of parents would send their kids there. The building is nice. It's relatively easy to get to. It would be big enough to offer a variety of classes and extracurriculars and have plenty of well-prepared students entering. Yes, there would be older kids in the same building. But that is not the end of the world. Plenty of pk3 parents at Francis-Stevens probably freak out about the middle schoolers being there and then they get over it. It's possible to have a middle and high school share a building without the kids mingling, and it opens up opportunities like middle schoolers being able to take AP classes if they are super advanced.

There are always going to be BASIS or bust parents and families that leave for the burbs. But if Francis-Stevens middle school is good enough for your kids, then the exact same feeder kids plus the ones who'd go to Shaw (so Cleveland, Garrison, Ross, Seaton, Thomson, and F-S, the latter of which would send more kids because there'd be more space with the middle school gone) seems like a pretty good option. And Cardozo is a way nicer building for big kids, with an outdoor track, a swimming pool, nice auditorium and gym, an aviation (FLEX-ACE) and other science labs.

True. but this just proves that its not about the buidling, its always about the students and families who attend. DC needs to stop wasting money on shiny new buildigns and develop programs to attract top tier students instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the population of kids will change as the feeders change. I agree that a change can be made. I also agree that DCPS needs to give a longer leadership contract in order to attract someone talented who will commit for multiple years. It is simply ridiculous that DC is creating these beautiful school buildings and nobody will go near them and in fact prefer crappy charter facilities.

that will take decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the population of kids will change as the feeders change. I agree that a change can be made. I also agree that DCPS needs to give a longer leadership contract in order to attract someone talented who will commit for multiple years. It is simply ridiculous that DC is creating these beautiful school buildings and nobody will go near them and in fact prefer crappy charter facilities.

This. Attracting the truly high-income kids is a later stage. First, more middle-income kids who are closer to grade level. It's a gradual process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the population of kids will change as the feeders change. I agree that a change can be made. I also agree that DCPS needs to give a longer leadership contract in order to attract someone talented who will commit for multiple years. It is simply ridiculous that DC is creating these beautiful school buildings and nobody will go near them and in fact prefer crappy charter facilities.

No amount of feeder changes is going to change the population at Cardozo. The school is 60% OOB. The current feeder is not that dramatically different than what is being proposed. Ross students already have the option of going Cardozo or SWW-FS. They are choosing NOT to go to Cardozo. Do you think that forcing them to go to Cardozo is going to change anything? No, they will lottery somewhere or go private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the population of kids will change as the feeders change. I agree that a change can be made. I also agree that DCPS needs to give a longer leadership contract in order to attract someone talented who will commit for multiple years. It is simply ridiculous that DC is creating these beautiful school buildings and nobody will go near them and in fact prefer crappy charter facilities.

This. Attracting the truly high-income kids is a later stage. First, more middle-income kids who are closer to grade level. It's a gradual process.

First work with the kids who are there. < 10% at grade level is unacceptable for any cohort.