College Acceptance/Matriculation Stats: NCS/STA, Holton/Landon

[Anonymous]

Yes, I'm sure that the folks at top DC schools can try to help the non-legacy kids by writing good recommendations, and also they probably have contacts in the Ivy admissions offices that third tier and public school guidance counselors don't have. But the Jay Matthews article seemed to say that it didn't matter in the end -- the kids who already had Harvard connections got in, and the others didn't.

Have no idea how this translates to helping a non-connected kid get into a non-Ivy but top liberal arts school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece from the Post's education writer, Jay Matthews, earlier this month: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2009/09/in_demystifying_college_admiss.html

He writes:
"Princeton researchers Thomas J. Espenshade and Chang Y. Chung calculated that the legacy factor is worth on average 160 extra points on the 1600-point SAT.... I have been privy to the give and take over applicants to some colleges, and if a student is a legacy, it is mentioned and has great weight. (Although it will not guarantee the admission of a so-so student.)
... But there is absolutely no sign that the colleges who give preference to legacies, and consider it an important way to win alumni support, are going to stop doing that. "

Here is a link to the study Matthews cited: http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf. It's an interesting read. The researchers tried to isolate how much some factors (diversity, athlete, legacy) seem to affect certain applicants (and measure the effect in SAT points to make it understandable). Here are the bottom-line results:

AA applicant = +230 SAT points (on 1600-point scale)
recruited athlete = +200 SAT points
Hispanic = +185 SAT points
legacy = +160 SAT points
Asian = -50 SAT points

A few other points of interest from the article:

(1) The researchers note that these characteristics are not the only ones that affect admissions, just the ones they chose to study.
(2) The researchers note that the benefits of multiple characteristics are not strictly additive, and might vary depending on which characteristics are combined. In other words, a Hispanic legacy does not simply experience a 345 point benefit (185+160), but something less than that.
(3) The researchers also found that applicants scoring over 1500 on the SAT experience a marked better chance of admissions than those scoring lower. The authors don't really discuss this in much detail, but I gather from their conclusion and from looking at some of the data that there is not a linear link between increasing SAT scores and increasing chances of admission. In other words, each extra SAT point on the test becomes more "valuable" than the last point.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for condensing it for the rest of us!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, just heard last night from parents with these school connections about a kid not too long ago who was at STA and got kicked out for dealing drugs. Father very famous and both STA and Harvard alum. Son then accepted at Sidwell where he graduates and it was well-known that he was not the smartest of the bunch. Gets into Harvard. SATs and everything else didn't matter. Then again, the Harvard education didn't really help as we were told.

He didn't get kicked out of STA. It's just that STA refused to expunge the incident from his record, and the mom was mad enough to transfer him to Sidwell where he could get a new, clean record.

[Anonymous]

Not sure if we are talking about the same kid. My godson was in his class and also with him at Harvard. These days, they don't "officially" kick you out. They ask you to leave or they will make it official. He went on to have the same problems in college and post-college life, unfortunately, with several related arrests.

[Anonymous]

It strikes me that all legacies, at one point, had to start. I mean, someone had to be the first in the family to go to Yale (or whatever other prestigious college), right?

[Anonymous]

I think we are talking about the same kid. You may know better if your godson knew him personally, but what I had read was that St. A. wasn't going to kid him out, just put something in his file. Tipper got mad at STA for refusing to expunge the record, and transferred him. Is that the kid?

[Anonymous]

17:25 - had a cousin in that class and agree with 18:16. The school and family agreed to have him withdraw voluntarily so he wouldn't HAVE to be kicked out. Apparently that's the courtesy you get for being from that family/position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It strikes me that all legacies, at one point, had to start. I mean, someone had to be the first in the family to go to Yale (or whatever other prestigious college), right?

Yes, but back in the days before they let in women, Jews, or minorities or any kind, it was much easier to get into Yale and its ilk. (And please don't assume I think that was a good thing!) From what I've heard from my grandparents, you basically let them know you were coming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:17:25 - had a cousin in that class and agree with 18:16. The school and family agreed to have him withdraw voluntarily so he wouldn't HAVE to be kicked out. Apparently that's the courtesy you get for being from that family/position.

OK then, I'm either wrong or read something wrong, happy to be corrected. Must be nice to make a big mistake like that and have the option of transferring directly to another top school! Although I think 20 years ago St A was tops and the others were runners-up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Exactly. That's why we were SO impressed by GDS. That and the amazing kids we encountered at every turn.

I for one am getting growing pretty tired of the relentless GDS boosting on this forum. I'm starting to wonder if we have GDS admissions staff lurking on here - as I can't imagine parents can be THIS wrapped up in the reputation of their child's school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It strikes me that all legacies, at one point, had to start. I mean, someone had to be the first in the family to go to Yale (or whatever other prestigious college), right?

In-coming class stats from last year from my non-Ivy but top 5-ranked liberal arts college:

Legacies: 11%
Admits where student was first in family to go to college: 10%

It's nice there is room for both types of students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It strikes me that all legacies, at one point, had to start. I mean, someone had to be the first in the family to go to Yale (or whatever other prestigious college), right?

In-coming class stats from last year from my non-Ivy but top 5-ranked liberal arts college:

Legacies: 11%
Admits where student was first in family to go to college: 10%

It's nice there is room for both types of students.

So, to hammer it home,
Legacies 11%
First in family to go to THAT college: 79%
First in family to go to ANY college: 10%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly. That's why we were SO impressed by GDS. That and the amazing kids we encountered at every turn.


I for one am getting growing pretty tired of the relentless GDS boosting on this forum. I'm starting to wonder if we have GDS admissions staff lurking on here - as I can't imagine parents can be THIS wrapped up in the reputation of their child's school.

I posted the first quote. And I stand by what I said. And my kids don't go to GDS. We decided to go public, for a variety of reasons.

[Anonymous]

NY Times is soliciting questions for Harvard's Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid: http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/harvarddean/?partner=rss&emc=rss&apage=2#comments. This seems like a perfect place for people here to pose their really tough and pointed questions on these issues. Go get him!