Is B/B+ the average GPA at top privates?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, DCUM is my secret addiction these days (it's better than Ben and Jerry's!).

You're not making an apples to apples comparison. The average student at an academically strong DC private (with a typical A-/B+ gpa, not B/B+) is not a straight A student at most local public high schools. They're average because they perform at a level typical of most of their classmates. In a public school, they would be average among the subset of students who take a challenging AP/IP curriculum (typically weighted to well over 4.0 gpas) and end up at better state schools (UVA, Michigan) and good SLACs (Wesleyan, Colby).

Where the privates do well is among academically strong students, especially those interested in the humanities and social sciences. The A student at strong private will have written literally hundreds of pages more than their public school counterparts and be engaged in far deeper, small group discussions than what's usually possible at a very good public school with 2-4x as many students per class. There are teachers at private school who can write very personalized, detailed recs and say things like "the best writer/thinker in my class since [famous author/intellectual]" that make a difference. The advanced academic electives at StA/NCS/SFS/GDS/Maret/Potomac are a lot like college seminars on purpose. As a result, the strong students arrive on college campuses steeped in contemporary academic debates which are very difficult for high school students to navigate on their own. Some of it is just arty intellectual posing, but most of it is knowing a lot more than what's on the AP exams.

Then you need to add in the extra level of privilege the private school students possess. Almost all of the top students at my DC's school are legacy at elite schools. They're not super wealthy development cases, but their parents have PBK keys and multiple elite degrees. These are children born on the academic version of 3rd base. My DC's friends from families of modest means have parents who are academics and teachers and public servants and nonprofit types with lots of cultural and intellectual capital. They are adept at "intellectual achievement," so the odds are their children would "win the (college) game" no matter where they went to high school.

Also an excellent post.

[Anonymous]

Embarrassing parents... Amazing display of childish behavior by both sides on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Sorry. iPhone post.

That was supposed to read "Very well-written post with lots of good points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges just look at GPA. There is no effort to "put that into context" like you have been lead to believe. Learned that the hard way when DD started applying and the person who informed us was the college counselor at her big three. There are too many applications now and grades are so inflated that it can really be a disadvantage of coming from a private school. Still wouldn't have deterred us, as my DD is forever grateful for that experience. You really need to focus on grades the most. Sports are pointless unless you are collegiate level. Scores are very important, but edged out by grades.

. This is
Not true. I served on the admissions committee for a top 20 university and we knew exactly what each schools grade scale was. A kid with a 3.4 from a top private in NYC or Washington DC was viewed very differently from a kid with the same grade point from most publics. Some larger schools have an algorithm for each known high school that automatically adjusts gpa. Grades are very important but relative.

So how what do you do about kids who are not from a "known" high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You only need to look as far as the outcomes. NCS does not inflate grades. Some girls are at the top of the class and the range goes down from there. However, their 2016 college list they posted leads me to believe that even the girls at the bottom of the class are going to top universities.

Is there a school in the world where this is not a true statement?

Wow, thanks for pointing that out. You are so smart. I think the point is that girls at the bottom of the class at NCS are still going to top universities - whereas kids at the B range in public schools are not. But I think you already knew that.

This is not a fair comparison. Most private school parents do not have the same limitations when it comes to college. They are a lot more willing and able to send their kids out of state, private, the other coast, etc. to have their child go to the best school they can get into. Most public school parents I know limit their kids college choices to in state publics. My daughter for example has the academic credentials to get into UVA or W&M, however this certainly doesn't mean show will get in, in which case she will end up at Tech or JMU. If we had the $$$ we could have her apply and send her to one of the other schools in the country of similar stature. However we don't. So just because B public school students don't end up at the same colleges as their private school counterparts, doesn't mean that they weren't as strong of candidates or their public school pedigree was held against them in admissions, most likely they weren't applying to the same colleges anyways.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the PP - economic factors are huge. I have had kids go through both public and private. I had one kid go from the MOCO Highly Gifted Program/Magnet MS to a Big 3 private. And I hate to tell all my fellow private school parents, but the top public school kids in the magnet programs can academically and intellectually blow the socks off of 90% of the private school kids even in the Big 3 (lets not even talk about the "lifers" who got in in Kindergarten but would certainly not make the cut in 9th).

The very top public school kids are not in private because of economic factors. In my kid's public school magnet classes there were kids with Mensa level IQ's whose parents could NEVER afford private.

So, to bring it back to the point of the post, if you are comparing top kids at privates who don't have 4.0 or the so-called grade inflation of the publics, I think the truth is in the test scores. Also the colleges know there is a difference in the way the privates vs publics grade.

[Anonymous]

Op just wanted to start an argument

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the PP - economic factors are huge. I have had kids go through both public and private. I had one kid go from the MOCO Highly Gifted Program/Magnet MS to a Big 3 private. And I hate to tell all my fellow private school parents, but the top public school kids in the magnet programs can academically and intellectually blow the socks off of 90% of the private school kids even in the Big 3 (lets not even talk about the "lifers" who got in in Kindergarten but would certainly not make the cut in 9th).

The very top public school kids are not in private because of economic factors. In my kid's public school magnet classes there were kids with Mensa level IQ's whose parents could NEVER afford private.

So, to bring it back to the point of the post, if you are comparing top kids at privates who don't have 4.0 or the so-called grade inflation of the publics, I think the truth is in the test scores. Also the colleges know there is a difference in the way the privates vs publics grade.

Believe it or not some families are committed to public schools beyond the economic issues... No I don't think my child GPA is comparable to yours..but my child's 5's on APs are. I think colleges can do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges just look at GPA. There is no effort to "put that into context" like you have been lead to believe. Learned that the hard way when DD started applying and the person who informed us was the college counselor at her big three. There are too many applications now and grades are so inflated that it can really be a disadvantage of coming from a private school. Still wouldn't have deterred us, as my DD is forever grateful for that experience. You really need to focus on grades the most. Sports are pointless unless you are collegiate level. Scores are very important, but edged out by grades.

. This is
Not true. I served on the admissions committee for a top 20 university and we knew exactly what each schools grade scale was. A kid with a 3.4 from a top private in NYC or Washington DC was viewed very differently from a kid with the same grade point from most publics. Some larger schools have an algorithm for each known high school that automatically adjusts gpa. Grades are very important but relative.

So how what do you do about kids who are not from a "known" high school.

This is why board scores still matter -- with all their flaws, it's an effort to get an apples-to-apples comparisons, unlike GPAs (of course, arguably with test prep so prevalent among the more affluent applicants it's not apples to apples, but it's something). It's also why applicant essays and teacher recommendations matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the PP - economic factors are huge. I have had kids go through both public and private. I had one kid go from the MOCO Highly Gifted Program/Magnet MS to a Big 3 private. And I hate to tell all my fellow private school parents, but the top public school kids in the magnet programs can academically and intellectually blow the socks off of 90% of the private school kids even in the Big 3 (lets not even talk about the "lifers" who got in in Kindergarten but would certainly not make the cut in 9th).

The very top public school kids are not in private because of economic factors. In my kid's public school magnet classes there were kids with Mensa level IQ's whose parents could NEVER afford private.

So, to bring it back to the point of the post, if you are comparing top kids at privates who don't have 4.0 or the so-called grade inflation of the publics, I think the truth is in the test scores. Also the colleges know there is a difference in the way the privates vs publics grade.

I think it goes without saying that MOCO HGP/Magnet MS is on par with most Big 3s. In fact many of the private schools also have counselors from those schools come in to speak with parents during the exmissions process. However, I think the question posed is speaking of the average public school and NOT MOCO HGP or TJ, Wilson or any of those public schools. The reality is that MOST public schools are NOT like TJ, Wilson or MOCO HGP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op just wanted to start an argument

I agree. IMHO ...

1. most public school students in the top 10% of the class are probably smart
2. most public schools students in magnet programs are probably very smart
3. most public school students in the top 10% of magnet programs are probably extremely smart
4. most students at top private schools are probably very smart
5. most students in the top 10% at top private schools are probably extremely smart

Trying to compare the students or the programs is pointless, because they're all inter-related. Judging the program quality by the academic skills of a small handful of students is a recipe for mismeasure. It would be sort of like saying that because Michael Phelps is the fastest swimmer, all people from the United States are faster swimmers than any other country. As another example, if Poolesville's program somehow magically recruited the top 3% of students from each of Sidwell/STA/NCS/Blair/TJ for the 2017-2020 class years, and thus suddenly found its SAT average and college results climbing through the roof, would we all suddenly agree that Poolesville's academic program was better than all those other schools? I doubt it.

If your child fits in any of the categories above, just assume he will be fine. Focus on your child's development, and not on how his school matches up to other schools on any of these other metrics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges just look at GPA. There is no effort to "put that into context" like you have been lead to believe. Learned that the hard way when DD started applying and the person who informed us was the college counselor at her big three. There are too many applications now and grades are so inflated that it can really be a disadvantage of coming from a private school. Still wouldn't have deterred us, as my DD is forever grateful for that experience. You really need to focus on grades the most. Sports are pointless unless you are collegiate level. Scores are very important, but edged out by grades.

. This is
Not true. I served on the admissions committee for a top 20 university and we knew exactly what each schools grade scale was. A kid with a 3.4 from a top private in NYC or Washington DC was viewed very differently from a kid with the same grade point from most publics. Some larger schools have an algorithm for each known high school that automatically adjusts gpa. Grades are very important but relative.

So how what do you do about kids who are not from a "known" high school.

This is why board scores still matter -- with all their flaws, it's an effort to get an apples-to-apples comparisons, unlike GPAs (of course, arguably with test prep so prevalent among the more affluent applicants it's not apples to apples, but it's something). It's also why applicant essays and teacher recommendations matter.

NP. I recall reading some long piece about this sort of arms race between college admissions and high schools. I think it might have been in Jaques Steinberg's (?) book or perhaps somewhere else. Colleges want a simple apples-to-apples metric to measure students, but each high school is different and wants to game the system. Colleges liked looking at class rank, but many high school magnet programs and private high schools considered that unfair because of their advanced academic programs, so many of them eliminated class rank. Colleges try to look at SATs, but don't like that students can game the SAT with prep classes, or that wealthy students do better. Colleges try to look at GPA, but many schools inflate or deflate grades, so it makes comparison hard. So the colleges have to compare lots of different factors and weight them all. It means each college has a slightly different formula.

[Anonymous]

I'm curious to know why so many people think that there is grade deflation at privates. I have always heard the opposite, that grade inflation in private school is rampant. This is basically because private school parents won't stand for less than B's. It makes sense. I can certainly see how a lot of families might decide that it's not worth paying $40,000 a year if their kid is only making C's. I would guess that private schools know this and try very hard to keep this from happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious to know why so many people think that there is grade deflation at privates. I have always heard the opposite, that grade inflation in private school is rampant. This is basically because private school parents won't stand for less than B's. It makes sense. I can certainly see how a lot of families might decide that it's not worth paying $40,000 a year if their kid is only making C's. I would guess that private schools know this and try very hard to keep this from happening.

For me, it's because (1) that was my own experience in a private high school, admittedly many years ago, where the class average was somewhere in the mid-80s, and anyone who got an average GPA in the 90s was likely in the top 10% of the class, (2) friends whose children are in private high schools now, who tell me in casual conversation that the average hovers around 90 now which is technically an A, but just barely, and (3) online reports I've seen from some private schools that show a bell-curve distribution, such as Andover where the average seems to hover around 4.9 on a 6-point scale (https://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/PhillipsAcademySchoolProfile2015-2016.pdf).

For public school, my gut sense comes from (1) my own long-ago experience where average-intelligent friends from public schools got mostly As, and (2) a friend with children in local public high school now who tells me her "only moderately smart" children and their peers routinely get all A and A- grades, and that even one B would put them far behind the pack of most students.

Apparently Fairfax County has put a lot of thought into this whole grade thing - http://www.fairgrade.net/media/fairgrade/GradingPolicyInvestigationReport.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges just look at GPA. There is no effort to "put that into context" like you have been lead to believe. Learned that the hard way when DD started applying and the person who informed us was the college counselor at her big three. There are too many applications now and grades are so inflated that it can really be a disadvantage of coming from a private school. Still wouldn't have deterred us, as my DD is forever grateful for that experience. You really need to focus on grades the most. Sports are pointless unless you are collegiate level. Scores are very important, but edged out by grades.

. This is
Not true. I served on the admissions committee for a top 20 university and we knew exactly what each schools grade scale was. A kid with a 3.4 from a top private in NYC or Washington DC was viewed very differently from a kid with the same grade point from most publics. Some larger schools have an algorithm for each known high school that automatically adjusts gpa. Grades are very important but relative.

So how what do you do about kids who are not from a "known" high school.

This is why board scores still matter -- with all their flaws, it's an effort to get an apples-to-apples comparisons, unlike GPAs (of course, arguably with test prep so prevalent among the more affluent applicants it's not apples to apples, but it's something). It's also why applicant essays and teacher recommendations matter.

NP. I recall reading some long piece about this sort of arms race between college admissions and high schools. I think it might have been in Jaques Steinberg's (?) book or perhaps somewhere else. Colleges want a simple apples-to-apples metric to measure students, but each high school is different and wants to game the system. Colleges liked looking at class rank, but many high school magnet programs and private high schools considered that unfair because of their advanced academic programs, so many of them eliminated class rank. Colleges try to look at SATs, but don't like that students can game the SAT with prep classes, or that wealthy students do better. Colleges try to look at GPA, but many schools inflate or deflate grades, so it makes comparison hard. So the colleges have to compare lots of different factors and weight them all. It means each college has a slightly different formula.

Well-stated and makes a lot of sense.