Gifted programs, lack of, in DC

[Anonymous]

So, do elementary or middle school gifted programs work? Do they lead to adults who do Nobel winning research, or at least peer reviewed research?

Montgomery County has a gifted program, but it's aimed at such a small percentage of the population that it's largely irrelevant to most kids in MCPS. Lots of kids go to their local feeders and do quite well for themselves, and parents pay top dollar for those feeder patterns, knowing that their kids probably won't qualify for the HGCs. On average people seem satisfied enough with the sysyem that they aren't moving.

When I hear the word "gifted", I think of parents who have outgoing, verbal boys who are disruptive because they can't handle a second's worth of boredom in school, e.g. Ronan Farrow. He speaks confidently, and did well on the LSAT, but he's not curing cancer. Do he and his ilk really deserve extra resources?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city.

But it would match the country. We don't live in Nigeria, despite of what some folks seem to think.

And we don't live in Wyoming or Idaho either, despite what some folks seem to think.

Correct. We live in the capital of a country called the USA, despite what some folks seem to think.

Demographics of said country: 64% white, 16% Latino, 12% black, 4% Asian.

That's not the demographics of this city. Are you confused? Do you not know the difference between a country, state, and city?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic keeps coming up because people refuse to look at the history and see just how bad DCPS fucked up "tracking" for several generations before home rule. Now, the people who were the victims of that situation have enough political clout to keep it from coming back, even though the "solution" is no solution at all.

You mean, the (mostly white) families who had to leave the city because of the (mostly black) crime?

We can talk decades-old history, or we can talk current problems and solutions

Those (mostly white) families left after Brown mainly because they didn't want their children to share classrooms with black children.

Not so different from today, although certain black children are acceptable if they come from high SES families or are willing to learn Mandarin.

Spare us this god awful BS. Ignore the miserable, hackneyed race-baiting everybody. We're too far into this century to tolerate it.

DCPS' refusal to give schools a fighting chance to differentiate effectively obviously motivates high SES, and other strongly education-minded parents, of all stripes to amalgamate around certain schools. I've seen how low and moderate income black kids (including recent immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean) who can keep up with run-of-the-mill high SES kids, or even move ahead of them academically, are embraced with open arms in schools.

DC isn't a racist town, it's one without many high performing public schools.

Why are you calling PP statement racist BS when she was stating facts? Yet, you failed to see and acknowledge the overt racism to the post for which she responded. Interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic keeps coming up because people refuse to look at the history and see just how bad DCPS fucked up "tracking" for several generations before home rule. Now, the people who were the victims of that situation have enough political clout to keep it from coming back, even though the "solution" is no solution at all.

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html

This is really helpful cite. It appears that the court did not find tracking objectional but instead found that the process for placing the kids in the various tracks was. Kids were placed based soley on one aptitude test, and the court found that the test was biased. If that is the case, I don't see why DCPS could not institute this again but using a more equitable method of placement.

Agreed, thank you PP for the useful link.

it seems that the judge mostly objected to:
"Once assigned, students had virtually no opportunity to switch tracks."
"...the tests were not actually measuring ability because they were biased in such a way that poor, Black children would inevitably earn lower scores and, as a result, lower track placements. Thus, children were being assigned to tracks based not on ability, but on status."

Neither of which apply to current gifted programs. So, while it certainly helps to understand the past connotations of the word "tracking," that is a mere distraction from the conversation about best approaches to gifted education

I would only support this if DC started the program in elementary and added a new grad each each year. Basically starting from the ground and building it up. At such an early age of testing for giftedness, I hope the kids cannot be prepped and drilled for entry. That's when you should get the truly gifted versus the academically advanced/readied as a result of parents disposable income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The crazy thing about this discussion is that most of you demanding it wouldn't have a kid test into one of these programs. Everyone here thinks their snowflake is special but reality is they may not be. Reading a grade level above does not make a kid gifted. Queue the hundreds of parents that had their DC tested when considering private in 3,2,1.....

BINGO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are a highly educated AA family, and I was in G&T programs myself growing up. I would love it if a G&T program were available in DC--although not because I think it's a given that my kid will get in when it's time. I simply want her to be surrounded by an academically strong, hard-working peer group in the later grades. If the lure of G&T will convince more high SES parents to remain in the DCPS system, then hey, whatever it takes. Otherwise, if we're still in the area and feel Deal/Wilson won't offer a strong enough peer group, we'll explore private options.

Yes well DCPS has heard all of the pleas and are scheduled to open a MS G&T school. I bet none of you will send your cherubs there even if they did make the cut. Why, because it is to be located in hillcrest and we know you good people are not sending your kids across the river. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

When is it scheduled to open?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city.

Because only rich white kids are "truly gifted"

In the US as a whole whites score about 15 points higher on IQ tests than blacks; don't bother to get upset, it's a well known and established fact. Based on NAEP scores, the black white gap in DC is signicantly larger than any state; the blacks in DC tend to score significantly below blacks in the US in general, and whites significantly above. If you used an IQ test to determine entry then yes, it would be almost completely white if a significant number of the white families in DC went public instead of private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic keeps coming up because people refuse to look at the history and see just how bad DCPS fucked up "tracking" for several generations before home rule. Now, the people who were the victims of that situation have enough political clout to keep it from coming back, even though the "solution" is no solution at all.

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html

This is really helpful cite. It appears that the court did not find tracking objectional but instead found that the process for placing the kids in the various tracks was. Kids were placed based soley on one aptitude test, and the court found that the test was biased. If that is the case, I don't see why DCPS could not institute this again but using a more equitable method of placement.

Agreed, thank you PP for the useful link.

it seems that the judge mostly objected to:
"Once assigned, students had virtually no opportunity to switch tracks."
"...the tests were not actually measuring ability because they were biased in such a way that poor, Black children would inevitably earn lower scores and, as a result, lower track placements. Thus, children were being assigned to tracks based not on ability, but on status."

Neither of which apply to current gifted programs. So, while it certainly helps to understand the past connotations of the word "tracking," that is a mere distraction from the conversation about best approaches to gifted education

I would only support this if DC started the program in elementary and added a new grad each each year. Basically starting from the ground and building it up. At such an early age of testing for giftedness, I hope the kids cannot be prepped and drilled for entry. That's when you should get the truly gifted versus the academically advanced/readied as a result of parents disposable income.

Actually that's backwards; IQ scores are less reliable when children are younger. Early childhood is one of the few times that environment can influence IQ, though the effects eventually disappear as the kids get older. This is one reason why Headstart programs have been such a failure. Testing should be done in 3rd or 4th grade. They're more accurate then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic keeps coming up because people refuse to look at the history and see just how bad DCPS fucked up "tracking" for several generations before home rule. Now, the people who were the victims of that situation have enough political clout to keep it from coming back, even though the "solution" is no solution at all.

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html

This is really helpful cite. It appears that the court did not find tracking objectional but instead found that the process for placing the kids in the various tracks was. Kids were placed based soley on one aptitude test, and the court found that the test was biased. If that is the case, I don't see why DCPS could not institute this again but using a more equitable method of placement.

Agreed, thank you PP for the useful link.

it seems that the judge mostly objected to:
"Once assigned, students had virtually no opportunity to switch tracks."
"...the tests were not actually measuring ability because they were biased in such a way that poor, Black children would inevitably earn lower scores and, as a result, lower track placements. Thus, children were being assigned to tracks based not on ability, but on status."

Neither of which apply to current gifted programs. So, while it certainly helps to understand the past connotations of the word "tracking," that is a mere distraction from the conversation about best approaches to gifted education

I would only support this if DC started the program in elementary and added a new grad each each year. Basically starting from the ground and building it up. At such an early age of testing for giftedness, I hope the kids cannot be prepped and drilled for entry. That's when you should get the truly gifted versus the academically advanced/readied as a result of parents disposable income.

Actually that's backwards; IQ scores are less reliable when children are younger. Early childhood is one of the few times that environment can influence IQ, though the effects eventually disappear as the kids get older. This is one reason why Headstart programs have been such a failure. Testing should be done in 3rd or 4th grade. They're more accurate then.

The last time I checked, third and fourth grade was still ES. I would however advocate beginning in the second grade, as fourth grade kids are already prepping for tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city.

Because only rich white kids are "truly gifted"

In the US as a whole whites score about 15 points higher on IQ tests than blacks; don't bother to get upset, it's a well known and established fact. Based on NAEP scores, the black white gap in DC is signicantly larger than any state; the blacks in DC tend to score significantly below blacks in the US in general, and whites significantly above. If you used an IQ test to determine entry then yes, it would be almost completely white if a significant number of the white families in DC went public instead of private.

You've posted this before. Please tell me who takes their kids to receive IQ testing? And who's administering these test? I've never found the need to have my DC testing and they are doing great academically. I'm not being snarky, but I honestly don't know of very many Black or Hispanic people paying to have their DC tested for IQ. Is it a white thing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When is it scheduled to open?

Forecasted for 2017

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city.

Because only rich white kids are "truly gifted"

In the US as a whole whites score about 15 points higher on IQ tests than blacks; don't bother to get upset, it's a well known and established fact. Based on NAEP scores, the black white gap in DC is signicantly larger than any state; the blacks in DC tend to score significantly below blacks in the US in general, and whites significantly above. If you used an IQ test to determine entry then yes, it would be almost completely white if a significant number of the white families in DC went public instead of private.

You've posted this before. Please tell me who takes their kids to receive IQ testing? And who's administering these test? I've never found the need to have my DC testing and they are doing great academically. I'm not being snarky, but I honestly don't know of very many Black or Hispanic people paying to have their DC tested for IQ. Is it a white thing?

NP. It is required for admission to most private schools (not parochial ones however) and it is also done to identify learning disabilities.

The people who develop the tests give them to many children of all ages and backgrounds to norm the scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city.

Because only rich white kids are "truly gifted"

In the US as a whole whites score about 15 points higher on IQ tests than blacks; don't bother to get upset, it's a well known and established fact. Based on NAEP scores, the black white gap in DC is signicantly larger than any state; the blacks in DC tend to score significantly below blacks in the US in general, and whites significantly above. If you used an IQ test to determine entry then yes, it would be almost completely white if a significant number of the white families in DC went public instead of private.

You've posted this before. Please tell me who takes their kids to receive IQ testing? And who's administering these test? I've never found the need to have my DC testing and they are doing great academically. I'm not being snarky, but I honestly don't know of very many Black or Hispanic people paying to have their DC tested for IQ. Is it a white thing?

NP. It is required for admission to most private schools (not parochial ones however) and it is also done to identify learning disabilities.

The people who develop the tests give them to many children of all ages and backgrounds to norm the scores.

If you are applying to private schools you hire a psychologist to administer it. If you are concerned about learning differences they are administered by either a school psychologist or private psychologist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city.

But it would match the country. We don't live in Nigeria, despite of what some folks seem to think.

And we don't live in Wyoming or Idaho either, despite what some folks seem to think.

Correct. We live in the capital of a country called the USA, despite what some folks seem to think.

Demographics of said country: 64% white, 16% Latino, 12% black, 4% Asian.

That's not the demographics of this city. Are you confused? Do you not know the difference between a country, state, and city?

Lady, I am American way before I even think of my skin color or the name of whatever city I live in (yes, have been a few). To me, the argument that gifted programs "Won't happen because the racial makeup wouldn't match the city" is plain stupid -- may be realistic, given the provincial politics in DC, but still a plain stupid argument to develop educational policy.

And, if you want to play local demographics - fine. Look up the racial make-up in NW and NE.