Gifted programs, lack of, in DC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being that cap hill has no middle school option, I find that quite troubling.

Capitol Hill has two middle schools: Eliot-Hine and Stuart-Hobson. You may choose not to send your children there, but that doesn't mean they are not options. We know numerous parents whose children are happy there, and my child is at Watkins and we plan to send him to Stuart-Hobson, as do many of his classmates' families.

Oh right, the old best laid plans scenario on Cap Hill. What happens every year is that a gaggle of high SES Watkins families articulate "plans" to send kids to SH this time of year, but only around 1/3 of the original group members turn up in the fall. Those who stick with the plan wind up feeling hurt and cheated upon finding that most of the true blue "planners" have run off to BASIS, Latin, privates, the burbs etc. Happy children and academically challenged children who comport themselves with dignity (hint no screaming obsenities, swearing and slugging in local alleys while neighbors call the cops) can be different things. Hint: SH's storied "honors" classes are taught at grade level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Folks here keep talking about "truly gifted" and describing them only in Einstein terms which would only be the category for profoundly gifted.

You do realize that there is a range of gifted from mildly gifted to profoundly gifted and that not all gifted kids give the appearance of an Einstein, don't you?? In fact, even Einstein was told he was a failure as a student and his teachers never thought of him as gifted at all. In fact, they thought the opposite of Einstein!

DC has unusual demographics with a lot of high powered, educated people here and therefore, it is quite plausible that DC has a higher concentration of gifted students here.

Those who diss gifted education, hurt disadvantaged gifted students in DC too by regulating them to classes filled with students years behind them where their needs are unlikely to be met.

As for test prep and people trying to game the system to get access to gifted education, I say so what. As long as a student can maintain passing grades in gifted education classes, then the more the merrier IMHO. School districts should also offer free test prep to any student who desires it and all children should be assessed for giftedness via traditional testing and via teacher insights.

Yes and many of those parents can easily access ward 7 from their ward 5 and 6 homes. As for wards 2-4, they can also access them from our lovely public transportation system (free) just like ward 6 families go to ward 3 for middle. It's impossible to make every application school in the middle of the city. Even if they would it would be near Gonzaga which is still a hike for you picky WoTpers.

Gonzaga is a straight shot on the red line. Hillcrest is at the edge of the city, no where near a metro. If all the busses are running on time, it takes a minimum of one and a quarter hours each way, and requires at least 3 bus and/or metro transfers plus walking from most of the city, from Palisades, Friendship Heights, Chevy Chase, Takoma Park (DC), and the DC side of Silver Spring. It is a two hour commute if all is running well from Barnaby Woods and other areas not near metro. Not putting an 11-year-old on crap shoot of a three-bus-transfer commute twice a day for hours is not being "picky."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being that cap hill has no middle school option, I find that quite troubling.

Capitol Hill has two middle schools: Eliot-Hine and Stuart-Hobson. You may choose not to send your children there, but that doesn't mean they are not options. We know numerous parents whose children are happy there, and my child is at Watkins and we plan to send him to Stuart-Hobson, as do many of his classmates' families.

Stuart Hobson 15% IB rate is not numerous. Let me correct it (I thought it was implied, didn't literally mean there are no middle schools on the hill): cap hill has no middle school option that Cap Hill residents are using

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being that cap hill has no middle school option, I find that quite troubling.

Capitol Hill has two middle schools: Eliot-Hine and Stuart-Hobson. You may choose not to send your children there, but that doesn't mean they are not options. We know numerous parents whose children are happy there, and my child is at Watkins and we plan to send him to Stuart-Hobson, as do many of his classmates' families.

Stuart Hobson 15% IB rate is not numerous. Let me correct it (I thought it was implied, didn't literally mean there are no middle schools on the hill): cap hill has no middle school option that Cap Hill residents are using

PP here: You're welcome to criticize the school. Yes, it's certainly not where I'd like it to be; yes, the bulk of Cap Hill kids go elsewhere; yes, if my kids go there, I expect that we will have to supplement academically at home.

But there were about 65 inbounds kids there last year; I expect that number is higher this year and is likely to continue to grow. I went to see the last few musicals (Annie, The Wiz) and was hugely impressed. Completely dismissing it as not an option is just inaccurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being that cap hill has no middle school option, I find that quite troubling.

Capitol Hill has two middle schools: Eliot-Hine and Stuart-Hobson. You may choose not to send your children there, but that doesn't mean they are not options. We know numerous parents whose children are happy there, and my child is at Watkins and we plan to send him to Stuart-Hobson, as do many of his classmates' families.

Stuart Hobson 15% IB rate is not numerous. Let me correct it (I thought it was implied, didn't literally mean there are no middle schools on the hill): cap hill has no middle school option that Cap Hill residents are using

PP here: You're welcome to criticize the school. Yes, it's certainly not where I'd like it to be; yes, the bulk of Cap Hill kids go elsewhere; yes, if my kids go there, I expect that we will have to supplement academically at home.

But there were about 65 inbounds kids there last year; I expect that number is higher this year and is likely to continue to grow. I went to see the last few musicals (Annie, The Wiz) and was hugely impressed. Completely dismissing it as not an option is just inaccurate.

It is not an option for those of us with standards. I suspect most of the parents of those 65 kids are primarily concerned about walkability of commute and supporting neighborhood schools. Looking at the catchment area for SH-gentrified Capitol Hill-and the student demographics (from the 2015 Equity Report)


Enrollment 423 students

87% African American=368 students
9% White approximately=38 students
____________
Percentage of inbound was not listed on report... DCPS profile lists 20% inbound which would equal 84 students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being that cap hill has no middle school option, I find that quite troubling.

Capitol Hill has two middle schools: Eliot-Hine and Stuart-Hobson. You may choose not to send your children there, but that doesn't mean they are not options. We know numerous parents whose children are happy there, and my child is at Watkins and we plan to send him to Stuart-Hobson, as do many of his classmates' families.

Stuart Hobson 15% IB rate is not numerous. Let me correct it (I thought it was implied, didn't literally mean there are no middle schools on the hill): cap hill has no middle school option that Cap Hill residents are using

PP here: You're welcome to criticize the school. Yes, it's certainly not where I'd like it to be; yes, the bulk of Cap Hill kids go elsewhere; yes, if my kids go there, I expect that we will have to supplement academically at home.

But there were about 65 inbounds kids there last year; I expect that number is higher this year and is likely to continue to grow. I went to see the last few musicals (Annie, The Wiz) and was hugely impressed. Completely dismissing it as not an option is just inaccurate.

It is not an option for those of us with standards. I suspect most of the parents of those 65 kids are primarily concerned about walkability of commute and supporting neighborhood schools. Looking at the catchment area for SH-gentrified Capitol Hill-and the student demographics (from the 2015 Equity Report)


Enrollment 423 students

87% African American=368 students
9% White approximately=38 students
____________
Percentage of inbound was not listed on report... DCPS profile lists 20% inbound which would equal 84 students.

Posting this may be a losing proposition, but I'll give it a shot:

Next time you post, could you consider whether you could make the same substantive point in a more polite manner? For example, rather than "It is not an option for those of us with standards," you could have said, "The academics aren't up to my standards." or even "I think the academic standards are far below what I want for my child."

On the statement "I suspect most of the parents of those 65 kids are primarily concerned about walkability of commute and supporting neighborhood schools." Yes, those are important to us. But the way you phrase it, it sounds like you think we are going to sacrifice our children's academic futures to make a political point. We wouldn't consider sending them to a school where we thought that was a possibility, and I don't know any parents - including parents who currently send their kids to SH - who would. We, like many other parents, check all the "academic success" boxes: Ivy-league graduate degrees, prestigious and relatively lucrative jobs, houses full of books, etc. And that gives us confidence that we can make up for any academic shortcomings at school. But based on what we know at this point, we think the academics will be good, if not great. We also think that the benefits - not having to make a long trip, having classmates who are also neighbors, learning to interact with a racially and economically diverse group of kids - outweigh the minuses. I'll also freely admit that we may change our minds as we learn more about our children and about the schools, including how many of our children's classmates will be attending.

I trust and expect that when you are making similar decisions, you are also considering what would be best for your children and family. You are welcome to share those thoughts, and to extent that you can share specific information that informed your decision, those comments are truly appreciated.

I don't think people who make different decisions than I do are bad people or bad parents. I hope you share that opinion and will write in that spirit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Folks here keep talking about "truly gifted" and describing them only in Einstein terms which would only be the category for profoundly gifted.

You do realize that there is a range of gifted from mildly gifted to profoundly gifted and that not all gifted kids give the appearance of an Einstein, don't you?? In fact, even Einstein was told he was a failure as a student and his teachers never thought of him as gifted at all. In fact, they thought the opposite of Einstein!

DC has unusual demographics with a lot of high powered, educated people here and therefore, it is quite plausible that DC has a higher concentration of gifted students here.

Those who diss gifted education, hurt disadvantaged gifted students in DC too by regulating them to classes filled with students years behind them where their needs are unlikely to be met.

As for test prep and people trying to game the system to get access to gifted education, I say so what. As long as a student can maintain passing grades in gifted education classes, then the more the merrier IMHO. School districts should also offer free test prep to any student who desires it and all children should be assessed for giftedness via traditional testing and via teacher insights.

Yes and many of those parents can easily access ward 7 from their ward 5 and 6 homes. As for wards 2-4, they can also access them from our lovely public transportation system (free) just like ward 6 families go to ward 3 for middle. It's impossible to make every application school in the middle of the city. Even if they would it would be near Gonzaga which is still a hike for you picky WoTpers.

Gonzaga is a straight shot on the red line. Hillcrest is at the edge of the city, no where near a metro. If all the busses are running on time, it takes a minimum of one and a quarter hours each way, and requires at least 3 bus and/or metro transfers plus walking from most of the city, from Palisades, Friendship Heights, Chevy Chase, Takoma Park (DC), and the DC side of Silver Spring. It is a two hour commute if all is running well from Barnaby Woods and other areas not near metro. Not putting an 11-year-old on crap shoot of a three-bus-transfer commute twice a day for hours is not being "picky."

There are dozens of available DCPS buildings in center city? Wow, someone should tell that to all the charters looking for space. Not everyone will win. Some people will have to sacrifice. If you don't like it you don't have to apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being that cap hill has no middle school option, I find that quite troubling.

Capitol Hill has two middle schools: Eliot-Hine and Stuart-Hobson. You may choose not to send your children there, but that doesn't mean they are not options. We know numerous parents whose children are happy there, and my child is at Watkins and we plan to send him to Stuart-Hobson, as do many of his classmates' families.

Stuart Hobson 15% IB rate is not numerous. Let me correct it (I thought it was implied, didn't literally mean there are no middle schools on the hill): cap hill has no middle school option that Cap Hill residents are using

PP here: You're welcome to criticize the school. Yes, it's certainly not where I'd like it to be; yes, the bulk of Cap Hill kids go elsewhere; yes, if my kids go there, I expect that we will have to supplement academically at home.

But there were about 65 inbounds kids there last year; I expect that number is higher this year and is likely to continue to grow. I went to see the last few musicals (Annie, The Wiz) and was hugely impressed. Completely dismissing it as not an option is just inaccurate.

It is not an option for those of us with standards. I suspect most of the parents of those 65 kids are primarily concerned about walkability of commute and supporting neighborhood schools. Looking at the catchment area for SH-gentrified Capitol Hill-and the student demographics (from the 2015 Equity Report)


Enrollment 423 students

87% African American=368 students
9% White approximately=38 students
____________
Percentage of inbound was not listed on report... DCPS profile lists 20% inbound which would equal 84 students.

Posting this may be a losing proposition, but I'll give it a shot:

Next time you post, could you consider whether you could make the same substantive point in a more polite manner? For example, rather than "It is not an option for those of us with standards," you could have said, "The academics aren't up to my standards." or even "I think the academic standards are far below what I want for my child."

On the statement "I suspect most of the parents of those 65 kids are primarily concerned about walkability of commute and supporting neighborhood schools." Yes, those are important to us. But the way you phrase it, it sounds like you think we are going to sacrifice our children's academic futures to make a political point. We wouldn't consider sending them to a school where we thought that was a possibility, and I don't know any parents - including parents who currently send their kids to SH - who would. We, like many other parents, check all the "academic success" boxes: Ivy-league graduate degrees, prestigious and relatively lucrative jobs, houses full of books, etc. And that gives us confidence that we can make up for any academic shortcomings at school. But based on what we know at this point, we think the academics will be good, if not great. We also think that the benefits - not having to make a long trip, having classmates who are also neighbors, learning to interact with a racially and economically diverse group of kids - outweigh the minuses. I'll also freely admit that we may change our minds as we learn more about our children and about the schools, including how many of our children's classmates will be attending.

I trust and expect that when you are making similar decisions, you are also considering what would be best for your children and family. You are welcome to share those thoughts, and to extent that you can share specific information that informed your decision, those comments are truly appreciated.

I don't think people who make different decisions than I do are bad people or bad parents. I hope you share that opinion and will write in that spirit.

Please, there isn't a racially and economically diverse group of kids at SH. There are a small number of SES white and AA kids, and a great many low SES AA kids. We're Asian, and at a recent open house were told that there are 2 or 3 kids of Asian descent in the school but "lots more expected in the fall." Sure, sure.

[Anonymous]

NP here and former cluster (Peabody and Watkins) parent IB for SH -- in my experience with the small cohort of families that are high SES at SH, they are absolutely sacrificing their children's academic future to make a political point. It's hard to believe, but overwhelmingly true. And they are now all hoping to squeeze into the selective high schools because even they won't send their students to Eastern at this point.

I think the percentage of IB students was higher before the realignment and detachment of SH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is frustrating that pull outs in DC seem to focus on kids who are behind rather than those that are ahead.

Not the experience at our elementary school (Hearst). While those who are behind are getting pullouts, many of the kids who are ahead are getting pullouts as well to give them more challenging work. In fact, some have been concerned that the advanced kids are being pulled out too much.

But is that 3 kids in a whole class of 20+ or how many advanced kids getting pulled out?

And may I ask why anyone would be worried the advanced kids were being pulled out too much? (honest question!) For how many hours a week are they being pulled out? Is it the parents of the advanced kids that are worried or other parents?

Thanks!

NP here, but in-class differentiation thrives at our upper NW ES, too. In ELA and math there's a combination of full-class instruction and ability-based small group work. Usually 4-5 groups per class (of 20 or so), rotating through stations (including work with the teacher or an aide). One of my kids is advanced in math and the other in ELA, and both have been appropriately challenged throughout their ES years.

I grew up in a traditional tracked gifted program, and I think the in-class differentiation approach is superior. It keeps kids in heterogeneous classes and allows for fluid regrouping, which I think is huge--it allows teachers to respond to what they're seeing over time and doesn't consign kids to rigid tracks. My math kid has moved from the highest small group to independent work (when he was working ahead of the group on a particular unit) and back to the small group again. The teacher has the flexibility to make these changes in real-time.

The huge caveat is that the success of the in-class approach is completely dependent on a strong principal and teaching staff--the principal has to believe in it and create consistency in how teachers are applying the model. I recognize that this is not happening at most DCPS schools and that many kids are not being challenged appropriately. But I'd much rather see DCPS focus on implementing effective in-class differentiation at all schools than spend resources creating a gifted track that simply sucks out the "smart"/well-prepped kids.

I agree. Classifying kids as "gifted" or not at an early age is a mistake--there's a great chapter in Nurture Shock (I think) on that. A more flexible and fluid approach allows kids to move back and forth as needed, and allows a kid who is ready for more challenge in one subject but not in another to have that. It does take good staffing, but overall, it's a superior approach hat allows all kids to benefit from challenges when they are ready, without sticking a label on them one way or the other. Curious what ES you're at?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know this has been debated over and over but it really is glaring. I am from NC and I am amazed at the opportunties that so many truly gifted kids have in my mid size city. Not only test in classes but they now have a special school that serves the truly top 1% who are even too advanced for the gifted classes. NC also has a Math and Science boarding school (think TJ but for statewide talent). Lots of FB friends in NC and SC are now preparing this their 7th graders for ACT/SAT as part of qualifying for the Duke Univiesity young scholars program which offers year wide enrichment for academically advanced kids. Yes, I know the arguements against all this, its just the parents "prepping" the kids, poor kids are at a disadvantage. But I can't help but feel in our liberal zeal to treat every student equally we have done a huge disservice to both the neediest students and also to the most academically advanced. I know DC is full if smart kids, some of them bordering on truly brilliant and other than AP (which based on the scores, probably most kids shouldnt be taking anyway so you know those are getting dumbed down) or IB, it seems that DC basically has said "smart kids do well anywhere so you are on your own"-- No I am not moving back to NC because our jobs are here. But for a state that seems to be gutting a lot of education program, they still have seriously invested in a lot of niche programming. I am curious why DC parents haven't demanded more? I am liberal but this just seems like a lot of misplaced liberal angst and guilt.

Doesn't directly answer your issue, but kids from DC do the Duke and Stanford and Johns Hopkins programs too-- at parent expensive, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this has been debated over and over but it really is glaring. I am from NC and I am amazed at the opportunties that so many truly gifted kids have in my mid size city. Not only test in classes but they now have a special school that serves the truly top 1% who are even too advanced for the gifted classes. NC also has a Math and Science boarding school (think TJ but for statewide talent). Lots of FB friends in NC and SC are now preparing this their 7th graders for ACT/SAT as part of qualifying for the Duke Univiesity young scholars program which offers year wide enrichment for academically advanced kids. Yes, I know the arguements against all this, its just the parents "prepping" the kids, poor kids are at a disadvantage. But I can't help but feel in our liberal zeal to treat every student equally we have done a huge disservice to both the neediest students and also to the most academically advanced. I know DC is full if smart kids, some of them bordering on truly brilliant and other than AP (which based on the scores, probably most kids shouldnt be taking anyway so you know those are getting dumbed down) or IB, it seems that DC basically has said "smart kids do well anywhere so you are on your own"-- No I am not moving back to NC because our jobs are here. But for a state that seems to be gutting a lot of education program, they still have seriously invested in a lot of niche programming. I am curious why DC parents haven't demanded more? I am liberal but this just seems like a lot of misplaced liberal angst and guilt.

Doesn't directly answer your issue, but kids from DC do the Duke and Stanford and Johns Hopkins programs too-- at parent expensive, of course.

what age do those programs start?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this has been debated over and over but it really is glaring. I am from NC and I am amazed at the opportunties that so many truly gifted kids have in my mid size city. Not only test in classes but they now have a special school that serves the truly top 1% who are even too advanced for the gifted classes. NC also has a Math and Science boarding school (think TJ but for statewide talent). Lots of FB friends in NC and SC are now preparing this their 7th graders for ACT/SAT as part of qualifying for the Duke Univiesity young scholars program which offers year wide enrichment for academically advanced kids. Yes, I know the arguements against all this, its just the parents "prepping" the kids, poor kids are at a disadvantage. But I can't help but feel in our liberal zeal to treat every student equally we have done a huge disservice to both the neediest students and also to the most academically advanced. I know DC is full if smart kids, some of them bordering on truly brilliant and other than AP (which based on the scores, probably most kids shouldnt be taking anyway so you know those are getting dumbed down) or IB, it seems that DC basically has said "smart kids do well anywhere so you are on your own"-- No I am not moving back to NC because our jobs are here. But for a state that seems to be gutting a lot of education program, they still have seriously invested in a lot of niche programming. I am curious why DC parents haven't demanded more? I am liberal but this just seems like a lot of misplaced liberal angst and guilt.

Doesn't directly answer your issue, but kids from DC do the Duke and Stanford and Johns Hopkins programs too-- at parent expensive, of course.

what age do those programs start?

2nd for Hopkins summer day programs. http://cty.jhu.edu/summer/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this has been debated over and over but it really is glaring. I am from NC and I am amazed at the opportunties that so many truly gifted kids have in my mid size city. Not only test in classes but they now have a special school that serves the truly top 1% who are even too advanced for the gifted classes. NC also has a Math and Science boarding school (think TJ but for statewide talent). Lots of FB friends in NC and SC are now preparing this their 7th graders for ACT/SAT as part of qualifying for the Duke Univiesity young scholars program which offers year wide enrichment for academically advanced kids. Yes, I know the arguements against all this, its just the parents "prepping" the kids, poor kids are at a disadvantage. But I can't help but feel in our liberal zeal to treat every student equally we have done a huge disservice to both the neediest students and also to the most academically advanced. I know DC is full if smart kids, some of them bordering on truly brilliant and other than AP (which based on the scores, probably most kids shouldnt be taking anyway so you know those are getting dumbed down) or IB, it seems that DC basically has said "smart kids do well anywhere so you are on your own"-- No I am not moving back to NC because our jobs are here. But for a state that seems to be gutting a lot of education program, they still have seriously invested in a lot of niche programming. I am curious why DC parents haven't demanded more? I am liberal but this just seems like a lot of misplaced liberal angst and guilt.

Doesn't directly answer your issue, but kids from DC do the Duke and Stanford and Johns Hopkins programs too-- at parent expensive, of course.

what age do those programs start?

2nd for Hopkins summer day programs. http://cty.jhu.edu/summer/

Also second for their on line courses. Stanford program recently changed hands, I think, but it also starts young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here and former cluster (Peabody and Watkins) parent IB for SH -- in my experience with the small cohort of families that are high SES at SH, they are absolutely sacrificing their children's academic future to make a political point. It's hard to believe, but overwhelmingly true. And they are now all hoping to squeeze into the selective high schools because even they won't send their students to Eastern at this point.

I think the percentage of IB students was higher before the realignment and detachment of SH.

Agree in large part, but then some of the high SES kids do OK at SH and Hardy. Interestingly, PARCC scores shed light on the growing gap between DCPS middle school academics EotP and those on offer at the most upper middle-class friendly charters.

DC selective high schools interview kids (unlike Boston Latin and the famous NYC magnets), meaning that the admissions process is highly subjective.

Walls interviewers hear "Hobson" or "Hardy" and want the kids, white or AA, if they're anywhere near the cut off. The reality is that DCPS rewards its own. Unfortunately, elite colleges won't reward DCPS' own if the kids can't ace a range of standardized tests (SATs or ACTs, SAT subject tests, APs or IB Diploma exams).